Tier List Speculation

[Ali Baba 177]

Wow, people really don't like Olimar around here huh?

Ya, olimar was seen as really bad at first, and then people started to think he was better and probably average especially when Hbox played him, and now people are thinking of him as pretty bad again. Olimar just really needs something for his recovery, its fairly predictable and easy to shine and gimp. Maybe his neutral B should be his pikmin gathering under him and throwing him up or something, then he would kinda have 'two up b's'. This seems kinda redonculous at first, but then there are characters like kirby, rob, mario, and all flying characters so I think itd be good for him.

 

[Oracle]

red pikmin's air moves do the most damage, so they're the safest on block. yellow have a good item toss and larger hitboxes, but i haven't really explored how to use that well. pretty sure it just comes down to being able to upsmash oos a lot more stuff. i usually throw yellows away

olimars recovery is really good vs most characters. lots of mixup potential and stuff. what olimar really needs is the pikmin to do sword loops like vergil

 

[Ali Baba 177]

His combo game and kill power is fine, he does really need OOS options to be a little better. Aaand you say his recovery is really good,,,,buttt you mean it has decent range when he isnt being chased. Imagine if ZSS had a short whip when she tried to recover and couldnt use side b, I mean if you look at it Olimars recovery can be terrible often times just cause the pikmin arent near him and then his tether isnt even as long as ZSS or Ivys when he has all pikmin.

 

[Soft Serve]

ZSS's recovery isn't ridiculous because of the tethers, its her ability to drift so well and that Down-b that are bonkers. But yeah Olimar's recovery and slightly lacking ground game (I wish he had pikmin tilts with good reach tbh, but he would be even more vulnerable when without pikmin and he would be even more similar to marth) are all I think are holding him back. I think he is above average in ability just because of his good neutral and ability to wrack up damage ridiculously fast. A lot of people just discredit everything he has though.

 

[Oracle]

Better oos options? Upsmash oos is pretty incredible lol. Or I could just not shield and pivot grab

 

[JOE!]

We should talk about a borderline character for once...

What are your thoughts on Charizard?

Why isn't he as good as some other folks / what is specifically keeping him back?

(Personally, I think he has a bit of trouble getting stuff started from the air to the ground which can be an issue since he is an easy target, as well as generally dealing with pressure at all)

 

[DMG]

Charizard has good things, and then bad things. Reminds me a lot of DK

I will say though, if you changed Charizard to be less "bad", or took some of his moves and slapped them on other characters, stuff would be getting nerfed on Day 1. You don't make moves like his Nair or Jab on a whim. I'm also glad he doesn't have an ez mode Uthrow CG: tends to not be le fun. Uthrow into guaranteed Side B? I can picture it now... yay I'm glad he doesn't have it

 

[Spiffykins]

Charizard has good things, and then bad things. Reminds me a lot of DK

More like Charizard has broken things, and then terrible things.

 

[DMG]

Charizard has the spirit of someone developing him to be a monster, who knows the painful fact that he'd get nerfed if they made his strengths more obvious and easier to use, so he has to keep it relatively in check by using his body/less disjoint and giving him Dthrow instead of Uthrow setups

 

[Vashimus]

Charizard's ease of use is what bites him in the ass, so he takes nice beatings from the nerf stick here and there. He's a solid character, but it's almost as if he's not allowed to reach his full potential.

 

[The_NZA]

Charizard's ease of use is what bites him in the ***, so he takes nice beatings from the nerf stick here and there. He's a solid character, but it's almost as if he's not allowed to reach his full potential.

Just for clarification, what nerfs has charizard gotten outside of the decrease in dsmash range (which wario and dkdownb also suffered from)?

 

[DMG]

Charizard's Dthrow got nerfed. If you think his Dthrow is good currently, you must have missed the days where his recovery time was probably *half* and he had pretty easy traps following. I think they did something with glide, I'm 99% sure I remember seeing very silly "multi-gliding" with Charizard.

 

[Vashimus]

Besides the D-smash and D-throw nerfs, the other big ones off the top of my head are his glide eating one of his jumps when used and his Up-B now has sour-spots on the later animation of the move. Fire Spin used to be his bread-and-butter for killing off the top.

 

[DMG]

"Charizard's glide can only be used once per air time"

This mother ****** was humping the air and getting away with it



Point being, White men of dubious race and ancestry continue to oppress the 'Zard

 

[jtm94]

Zard's dthrow is mad good still. I can't even fathom it being better.

I like fthrow at the edge into footstool, maybe it's because Zard's bigger, but I feel like he can footstool easier. dtilt is also a little bit extreme, same with bair. I would talk about Nair being amazing, but it's alright, it would only be better if it was like MK's nair and Zard became a spinning fortress of fire.

 

[Terotrous]

Zard seems okay. He kind of feels like a less good Mewtwo. He's got similar disjoints, but they're not as fast and his moveset just doesn't feel quite as powerful overall.

Seismic Toss is awesomesauce though.

 

[B.W.]

lol, but seriously tho. I know i should be asking this in the olimar thread, but they told me to come here for teir list stuff. IMO all of the pikmin should have a significant use. Red and Yellow pikmin seem to get outprioritized (in terms of usefulness) by the rest.

Don't think I ever saw you in the Olimar boards, bro lol.

Olimar is fine. He doesn't need buffs or nerfs, what he needs are little tweaks to feel more like a complete character. He's quick for being so little and racks up damage like a monster. And his recovery is great, and not just in a distance sense. Being floaty with quick attacks lets him attack on his way back to the stage, and he has some defent air control (drift) as well. He survives gimp attempts more than a lot of characters do.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Tier list opinions for 3.02 (Note, this is just tier areas, not actual positions):
Top tier:
, , , , ,

High tier:
, , , , , ,

Mid high tier:
, , , , , , , , , ,

Mid tier:
, , , , ,

Low mid tier:
, , , , , ,

Low tier:
, , , ,

 

[Oracle]

Yup lucas is best in the game lol

 

[JOE!]

Besides the D-smash and D-throw nerfs, the other big ones off the top of my head are his glide eating one of his jumps when used and his Up-B now has sour-spots on the later animation of the move. Fire Spin used to be his bread-and-butter for killing off the top.

Nerfs:

1) Dsmash range decrease
2) Dthrow speed decrease
3) Glide uses ALL JUMPS, when MK and Pit (the other gliders) can wither recover in 13874239847 ways or even jump from glide and glide again
4) Up b isn't as effective off the top anymore
5) grab range vastly decreased from Brawl (not really a nerf, but one of the 1st things they did to him that I never really understood... his grab isnt really super fast and was comparable to marth at like 1/2 speed given his size)


This said, he still has awesome attributes such as his scary normals and Nair of the gods.

 

[Pickledpotatoes]

Yup lucas is best in the game lol

Tier list opinions for 3.02 (Note, this is just tier areas, not actual positions):

 

[DavemanCozy]

Tier list opinions for 3.02

I'd say that C. Falcon, Marth and Ike should be up one tier, and Bowser down a tier.

 

[DMG]

Nerfs:
5) grab range vastly decreased from Brawl (not really a nerf, but one of the 1st things they did to him that I never really understood... his grab isnt really super fast and was comparable to marth at like 1/2 speed given his size)

Fast running ground characters with grab ranges at (or above) Marth is not healthy. At all. He should be lucky that his grab range is anything near that level, same with DK. Other characters would kill to have that range (see: Mario, Ness, Jiggs, MK, any character ever)

 

[Osennecho]

#BUFFPUFF
10s
I agree with a lot of Joe's list. A couple characters I feel might be off by one of his tiers, but a lot of it seems accurate to me. What makes Wario so high in the current version though? I'm inexperienced with him so maybe I'm just missing something....

 

[didds]

Zard seems okay. He kind of feels like a less good Mewtwo. He's got similar disjoints, but they're not as fast and his moveset just doesn't feel quite as powerful overall.

Seismic Toss is awesomesauce though.

They couldn't feel more different imo, they both have tails and similar fairs I guess. Seismic Toss is awesome.

 

[DMG]

Zard is 400% more related to DK than M2

Ur argument is poo

 

[Empyrean]

Perfect visual support for your argument. Irrefutable/10.

 

[Mera Mera]

Charizard is solid. He combos and tech chases brutally and has the 5th fastest run speed (under Sonic, Falcon, Fox, and Metaknight). He also can make it really hard to land safely on platforms cause up smash is super good at covering that. For edgegaurding his on stage edgegaurd is pretty good cause f-tilt and d-tilt, and his offstage edgegaurd is great cause he can go deep and still be fine on the way back.

He has terrible horizontal air speed and mobility which is his main weakness. Being fat isn't the greatest either. Also, while nair is one of the best moves in the game (the move is insane), it fails to fit the typical gtfo attribute most nairs have, and as such he can have trouble when pressured in the air.

He has sort of a hard time dealing with projectiles because of his air speed (it means the gap between him and his opponent has to be smaller before you can approach through projectiles with an aerial).

That's about all I can think of for disadvantages.

 

[JOE!]

The biggest thing I've noticed while playing him is that his air speed combined with frame / moves makes it very hard to get back down to the ground to attempt to reset a situation. Like nothing he has is really safe on shield, I think?


That said, when he does land a hit he just easily comboes like 928313%. I just found out that Dair -> Usmash is guarenteed on most everybody at 0, and can lead into an aerial (F/N/U air) and leave them at like 60% from 0 lol.

 

[Terotrous]

They couldn't feel more different imo, they both have tails and similar fairs I guess. Seismic Toss is awesome.

I think there's more similarities than this. Fair, Bair, Dair, M2 Ftilt / Zard Dtilt, are all clearly very similar. I also think USmash is kind of similar (both create an upwards multi hitting disjoint), which they can then both follow up using a special move (Zard uses Down B, Mewtwo uses Jump / UpB). I also find their Dash Attacks similar, even though they look different they both pop the enemy above them for a UTilt / USmash. They've even got a very similar throw game - Fthrow and Bthrow are basic 45 degree angle throws with moderate power, Dthrow sets up combos / tech chases, and UThrow is a potent kill throw.

The most significant differences are their other B moves, jab, and Nair.


I honestly don't really see the DK comparison to be honest. DK's all about throw combos and charge punch, neither of which Charizard has any obvious analogue to. His dash attack is also very different, and he has significantly worse recovery than either of them.

 

[didds]

I really don't feel it. Sure a lot of their moves have similarities, but that's the case with a lot of the cast. They feel nothing like each other when played though. Double jump differences, ground speed, utility of wavedash, general strategy while approaching: all of this while playing the game make them feel very different. I'd be more comfortable going from Charizard to MK, than Charizard to M2.

 

[JOE!]

Speaking of, since I also use MK, he and Zard are very alike in terms of approach / aerial game. MK is fast on the ground but has horrid air speed, so he does ground to air conversions. Zard can do similar, but he also has the super jump to follow up with, but at the same time doesnt have the speed to cover the horizontal either despite the immense vertical he gains.

 

[JOE!]

Fast running ground characters with grab ranges at (or above) Marth is not healthy. At all. He should be lucky that his grab range is anything near that level, same with DK. Other characters would kill to have that range (see: Mario, Ness, Jiggs, MK, any character ever)

 

[Terotrous]

I really don't feel it. Sure a lot of their moves have similarities, but that's the case with a lot of the cast. They feel nothing like each other when played though. Double jump differences, ground speed, utility of wavedash, general strategy while approaching: all of this while playing the game make them feel very different. I'd be more comfortable going from Charizard to MK, than Charizard to M2.

Well yeah, M2 is quicker, approaches better, has a better wavedash, better projectile, etc.

The thing is I can't think of much Zard does better than Mewtwo, which is why it feels to me like Mewtwo just does everything better than him.

 

[didds]

Well yeah, M2 is quicker, approaches better, has a better wavedash, better projectile, etc.

The thing is I can't think of much Zard does better than Mewtwo, which is why it feels to me like Mewtwo just does everything better than him.

runs faster, is heavier... fire is neat

 

[SpiderMad]

Nerfs:

3) Glide uses ALL JUMPS, when MK and Pit (the other gliders) can wither recover in 13874239847 ways or even jump from glide and glide again

I thought you can only glide with up-b with MK, and then can't jump out of it or anything besides cancelling it to freefall and glide attack

 

[JOE!]

I thought you can only glide with up-b with MK, and then can't jump out of it or anything besides cancelling it to freefall and glide attack

While true, at least he has the shuttle loop to use with his glide, and if hit from it he has the Down B, Nado and Drill Rush to also use for recovery. If Zard is hit from glide (which is much easier to do), he's ****ed.

 

[DrinkingFood]

lucas does have a slower tether grab tho



also to be fair, zard is much heavier and gets more height off his up-b than anything MK has
both of them still have some of the more stupid recoveries tho, glides are kinda dumb, with how going low gives your more height that you lost. thanks a lot brawl.

 

[B.W.]

If you're talking about PM, glides don't use your jumps, except maybe MK because his Up-B and his glide are connected.

 

[Terotrous]

runs faster, is heavier... fire is neat

He is a little heavier, but he's also a bigger target, so I find he doesn't survive much longer if at all.