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Tier List Speculation

DontHate-

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 24, 2013
Messages
65
Stick your head in the sand all you want, this is a clear double-standard that should addressed, whether you like it or not.

But you're right, enough of Melee.

stick my head in the sand? Im confused about the double standard your speaking about. If there is an issue, of course it needs to be addressed but we need to determine whether or not it's an issue first. Hasn't the past 200+ pages made this obvious?
 
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DontHate-

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 24, 2013
Messages
65
A quick thing to think about; hasn't Fox's uthrow-uair gotten a little less consistent across the cast due to the different throw release physics? Isn't that potentially a significant indirect buff for Fox lurking in the shadows if they manage to fix that mechanic?
The physics in the game have an impact so maybe. but that would also mean he got an indirect nerf for now lol
 
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jtm94

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 16, 2013
Messages
1,384
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
The update not coming for that long saddens me a lot. Especially when there are characters that I play that are being changed substantially.
 

Guilu

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 27, 2013
Messages
124
Location
Île-de-France
The update not coming for that long saddens me a lot. Especially when there are characters that I play that are being changed substantially.
Do we know what characters are getting changed ? There's a lot of time for it to change.
 

Ali Baba 177

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 18, 2014
Messages
274
Location
Washington
I guess that is the only sad part about no update for a long time. People get used to there characters in a certain way and then they get changed in style a bit, itd be nice to have a few pretty small updates to ease us into a change, but its kinda hard to determine who and how to change.
 

FireBall Stars

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 31, 2009
Messages
714
Location
Brazil, South America
In the backroom changes occur often for testing an experimenting purposes, so regardless of any privileged information one might hold, it's unlikely that it will apply to the future version.

Please don't misinterpret me, I said that there's a possibility that it will take longer than before, it's not an affirmation. It depends on a lot of things that we'll have gauge in the next months. Nothing has been decided.
 
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DontHate-

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 24, 2013
Messages
65
In the backroom changes occur often for testing an experimenting purposes, so regardless of any privileged information one might hold, it's unlikely that it will apply to the future version.

Please don't misinterpret me, I said that there's a possibility that it will take longer than before, it's not an affirmation. It depends on a lot of things that we'll have gauge in the next months. Nothing has been decided.
Update next week?
 
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1MachGO

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
807
Your argument is one that's borderline or actually is a strawman... They aren't more developed just because of popularity and time either. They had more room to develop and were better to begin with. Your theory-crafting an ideal every character is equal or almost equal scenario, which is PM's goal. You can't just say the heavily modified characters' meta should have been advanced in their prior games when its a completely different meta.

Also, developing and or successfully implementing those strategies is what takes you to the level of a pro... In no way shape or form are people just waiting, rather its that the pros find those strategies quicker/are the one's finding them in the first place... Also, it's not possible absurdly unlikely to develop and implement a strategy at the level of pros without personal experience at their level.

Maybe I have no idea what you're trying to argue, but if I am interpreting it correctly, than instead of only looking at one side of a coin like I initially thought, it's rather than you aren't seeing all sides of the die.
Accusing me of strawman? Really? My last post entirely served to defend and reclarify the same point I was originally trying to make. This is not a strawman.

I still feel like you don't understand my argument and that you believe that I think Fox and Falco are just as good as any other character. This isn't true. They are amazing characters and they have many attributes which make them nautrally superior. However, as I stated earlier, their advantages go beyond the aformentioned inherent ones; popularity being a MAJOR contributor to their success. You see, meta has to be developed by players, and when the playerbase for a specific character is larger, it is more likely to draw more talented/dedicated players which results in success and more inspired players. Its a self sustaining cycle which shapes the perceptions of other players. One perception in particular being character confidence. A large portion of players (particularly in the P:M community) are brimming with negativity and cynicism towards the capabilities of non-Fox/Falco character's in regards to success. Frankly, this is a counterproductive way of looking at things and we all ought to consider why things are as much as we consider what things are. For instance, there was a brief period during which Marth seemed absent from Melee's upper level competitive scene save for the occasional appearance from M2K. As a result, players began to doubt his capabilities. It really wasn't until the success of players such as PPU, The Moon, and Dr. PP that faith in the character was restored once more. Was it because Marth lacked the tools to compete at high level or was it primarily because the right players weren't using him?

To surmise, my point is more or less trying to expose certain ways of thinking which go too overlooked. Players need to realize that spacies are not only amazing characters but they are overrepresented and its hard to perceive the capabilities of other characters. I feel this is a positive viewpoint and I don't think any hostility was warranted.
 

Terotrous

Smash Champion
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Also, ENOUGH ABOUT THE FOX/FALCO. LETS CONTINUE MOVING ON TO OTHER CHARACTERS.
Who else do you want to talk about? I think the only people who are really contentious are those at the very top and the very bottom, and we were talking about some of the bottom tier characters 5 pages back or so.
 

fabulouspants

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 30, 2012
Messages
76
wow another tournament won by the overpoweredness of fox SIGH WHEN ARE THE NERFS. UGH...................................
 

Vashimus

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
3,308
Location
Newark, NJ
Aw, no need to get your fabulous panties in a twist. I'm sure you'll make Top 48 someday!
 
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DontHate-

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 24, 2013
Messages
65
Who else do you want to talk about? I think the only people who are really contentious are those at the very top and the very bottom, and we were talking about some of the bottom tier characters 5 pages back or so.
O.k cool, but fox/ falco aren't the only ones at the top.

Anyways, how about Pit? What they doing with his arrows?
 
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DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
I think MK Definitely > Falco but MK= or > Fox. You forgot to mention in your post about MK juggle game on fox/falco and MK's Bair. MK bair is very good. Also, the telport is really good too once you see someone teleporting then swinging their sword like 10000x before hitting the ground. Another thing is his side B which I noticed that it crosses you up A LOT. When MK does a side b from clos/mid range and the opponent blocks, he ends up behind them and then spams his jabs which hits behind MK. When he does this,, the only option is roll I guess because it's pointless to CC with your back towards him. Also mk's recovery is of the gods so Fox MUST uthrow upsmash or run up and upsmash, which is very predictable but luckily fox's upsmash on shield pushes him far back enough to be safe unless the opponent wave dashes Oos (which I have not tested yet just heard about it) . Either way, I can see why you would say he doesn't win the match up but it can go either way imo. So more than likely it is MK=Fox or MK > fox.
You can CC MK's Side B. It's kind of silly, because you can CC it and get "carried" with MK as he travels, and then shield before the last hit to get free punishes. Or combine CC with SDI, and move through MK so that the last hit misses and you can turn around/dash grab the other way/etc. I do this a lot, and learned to do it vs MK's that try to Side B directly to the stage as a mixup, because it can be an annoying move to beat outright. Same with CCing literally all 3 hits of MK Ftilt at decently high %'s, CC first hit of Fair and shield before the other hits land, etc. People really don't fool around enough with stuff like that. How many people know to SDI out of his Dair offstage, to help avoid death? Or to SDI it onstage if you happen to get hit in the air, so that you avoid the popup hit when he lands? Stuff like that matters, and isn't utilized very well.
 

jtm94

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 16, 2013
Messages
1,384
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
Well Zelda is highly on watch to get changed. It isn't hush hush or anything as it's been put onto public places.

Other things that stand out are Mario's fireballs being able to be put out in an almost obscene quantity, Link's boomerang being one of the other projectiles to compete and being a hit confirm for any move he wants, GnW bacon not being that useful, Ivy's UpB seeming to hit everything everywhere and extremely easy to pull off + KO power galore, and... Olimar's doodad on his head should change colors to indicate the current active pikmin, also his fsmash serves little purpose for how long it takes, dsmash is almost always better. OH! And Dr Mario's pills are good against all of Olimar's pikmin, unlike regular Mario and his fireballs.

There will be other stuff I'm sure, I can also smell possible Mewtwo nerfs in the future because he has moves so good they could be a standalone character.

In tier related news my buddy played Olimar in Brawl and loved him and just recently had the time to put work into him for PM and I have to say he's pretty decent. I vastly underrated how good up air, up smash and fair are. The purple pikmin puts out Fox upsmash level strength on a safe disjoint, pretty janky stuff.

I'm not even concerned with space animals, do you people think they are THAT real at the moment? I feel as though the tech does exist to overthrow them somewhat, and with characters AND stages to counterpick we can do a lot more than just Marth on FD. Falco is a much lesser issue. It's just like... We all saw Armada use Pit against Fox on several stages and he can chain grab, arrow hit-confirm into fair and just carry him off the stage. The scary part is that it isn't even crazy tech-heavy stuff, he wasn't waveshining him off the stage, it was just basic movement, reading DI here and there and playing solid. I can't even imagine how Fox would get nerfed in a way that doesn't completely destroy him or leave him in his seemingly dominant state still. Weakening Upsmash to KO 10% later would be fine, but he is still the same character and will continue to do the same things. Like... Upsmash is incredibly strong, and he can combo into it, but there are other moves in the game that have CRAZY KB and can be comboed into. Captain Falcon's knee, Sheik's fair, Mario can almost do any move into haymaker, Zelda's kick, Marth's dair, Ivy's UpB which can be landed after any of her many launchers. I'm perfectly fine waiting this version out and developing and dealing with this silly moves, but the uncertainty of whether or not this game will be updated tomorrow... or 5 months from now puts me on edge. I know a lot of the stuff the PMBR does should remain secret, but the community deserves to at least know what to expect, are there going to be major changes, are they working on bugs, people speak of a new server for online is it true, should we just accept the current version and play it as is for a few months? Regardless, this version is very solid and I very much enjoy this game.
 
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Ace55

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Messages
1,642
Location
Amsterdam
What Armada does vs Fox doesn't say much about the matchup. Much like how the Peach vs Fox matchup is still ****ty despite him dominating the entire Fox playerbase for a period.

I'd fully support Fox being hit with the PAL nerfs (weaker smashes, lighter and shorter upB off the top of my head). Combined with the laser nerf he'll still function the same way, just less overwhelming. Everybody (hopefully) happy. I also hope this will stop the amazing amount of whining that's been going on around here but I'm afraid that will just move on to something new...
 

Ace55

Smash Lord
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Feb 18, 2008
Messages
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Location
Amsterdam
^Furthermore, when that occurred Armada was entirely dedicated to PM and not splitting his time amongst multiple games.
That doesn't mean that much. Compared to how he trained for melee during his prime his PM practice was basically nothing. During his hiatus he still dominated Mango during those BEAST (3 I think) exhibitions. The guy is just a god at smash and I'd argue his extreme adaptation skills gives him an edge compared to other top melee pros in PM (as far as not getting taken out by a surprise matchup he doesn't know).
 
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DontHate-

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 24, 2013
Messages
65
You can CC MK's Side B. It's kind of silly, because you can CC it and get "carried" with MK as he travels, and then shield before the last hit to get free punishes. Or combine CC with SDI, and move through MK so that the last hit misses and you can turn around/dash grab the other way/etc. I do this a lot, and learned to do it vs MK's that try to Side B directly to the stage as a mixup, because it can be an annoying move to beat outright. Same with CCing literally all 3 hits of MK Ftilt at decently high %'s, CC first hit of Fair and shield before the other hits land, etc. People really don't fool around enough with stuff like that. How many people know to SDI out of his Dair offstage, to help avoid death? Or to SDI it onstage if you happen to get hit in the air, so that you avoid the popup hit when he lands? Stuff like that matters, and isn't utilized very well.
Wow, thank you for this. Now I have some questions.
1. If Im using a fast faller or a floaty would I be able to CC and/or SDI his side B at any percentage? lets say using falco or using kurby?
2. Can I start the CC even after the first, second, or third hit then continue to CC the rest of the hits and then block in the end to punish like you mentioned?
3. When SDIing his side B, I need to press down on the analog (to crouch cancel) and continuously mashing forward on the C stick to end up behind him (I really don't sdi much, which is why this might be a stupid question)?
4. is there a certain time after his side B but before it end that any of this no longer becomes possible?
5. That freaking dair on stage is annoying sometimes. Is there anything to do against it while im grounded(other than bloc and hope you can grab somehow)? would maybe jumping in the air and purposefully getting hit then SDIing would help in any way?

Thanks for this stuff. I only thought of CCing his jabs, which for some reason doesn't always work either :/
 
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Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
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Feb 27, 2008
Messages
26,560
Well Zelda is highly on watch to get changed. It isn't hush hush or anything as it's been put onto public places.
by people who are not in the back room

I'm perfectly fine waiting this version out and developing and dealing with this silly moves, but the uncertainty of whether or not this game will be updated tomorrow... or 5 months from now puts me on edge. I know a lot of the stuff the PMBR does should remain secret, but the community deserves to at least know what to expect, are there going to be major changes, are they working on bugs, people speak of a new server for online is it true, should we just accept the current version and play it as is for a few months? Regardless, this version is very solid and I very much enjoy this game.
the best course of action is to accept the current version and play it as is. it's the best for all parties, and is the best way to ensure the final version of the game is the best it can be. as more and bigger tournaments happen and we see what players are doing, we can make more educated judgments on what needs to be changed and what doesn't. for the most part though, as updates go on, less and less change will occur in general.
 
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DMG

Smash Legend
Joined
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Slippi.gg
DMG#931
Backroom is for nerds.




This wonderful GIF brought to you by "Link nerfs. Link: Stop Throwing That™"
 

Guilu

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 27, 2013
Messages
124
Location
Île-de-France
the best course of action is to accept the current version and play it as is. it's the best for all parties, and is the best way to ensure the final version of the game is the best it can be. as more and bigger tournaments happen and we see what players are doing, we can make more educated judgments on what needs to be changed and what doesn't. for the most part though, as updates go on, less and less change will occur in general.
Glad to hear it.
 

Oro?!

Smash Hero
Joined
May 23, 2009
Messages
9,674
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Geneva/Chicago, Illinois
I can't even count how many builds of every character there are before every release. Playing one does not mean anything about things that may or may not be happening to any character for future releases.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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Messages
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Slippi.gg
DMG#931
*Person offstage*

Pit used Arrow! It's super effective!



(I can't stop using this GIF and I dunno why)
 

Hashtag

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 13, 2010
Messages
151
Location
AZ
It makes pit who he is, in my opinion, he lacks the raw kill power and set ups a lot of other characters have. Pit's edgeguarding game ( including his arrows ) makes up for that. I'd feel like you'd have to buff pit's kill power more if you nerfed his gimp game.
 
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DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
If people DI towards your hits, you fly out there and kill them. If they DI away, you arrow them in the pooper.

Give the people what they want!
 

Terotrous

Smash Champion
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So I was playing a lot of Mewtwo today, and somehow I didn't previously realize that you could teleport in any direction, not just up forwards. Short hop forward teleport seems to be an absurdly good approach, it's like floating in with Peach, except you're totally invincible on the way in. I suppose they could try to stick out a meaty air attack where you'll reappear, but Fair is really quick, and there's always the possibility that you could go up forwards and dair them from above instead.

In any case, Mewtwo seems super good overall. I'm becoming increasingly convinced that every good character has at least one move that's totally bonkers, and thus you can't really say "oh, we can't buff <weak character's> move that much, that would be crazy", because there's already so much crazy in the game.

Also, I'm reconsidering my stance on Falco. I don't think he's #2 anymore. Pillar combo is great and all but other than that he just isn't nearly as good as Fox. At the very least, Ivy and Mewtwo seem superior. Even Wolf might have an edge on him.
 
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DontHate-

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 24, 2013
Messages
65
So I was playing a lot of Mewtwo today, and somehow I didn't previously realize that you could teleport in any direction, not just up forwards. Short hop forward teleport seems to be an absurdly good approach, it's like floating in with Peach, except you're totally invincible on the way in. I suppose they could try to stick out a meaty air attack where you'll reappear, but Fair is really quick, and there's always the possibility that you could go up forwards and dair them from above instead.

In any case, Mewtwo seems super good overall. I'm becoming increasingly convinced that every good character has at least one move that's totally bonkers, and thus you can't really say "oh, we can't buff <weak character's> move that much, that would be crazy", because there's already so much crazy in the game.

Also, I'm reconsidering my stance on Falco. I don't think he's #2 anymore. Pillar combo is great and all but other than that he just isn't nearly as good as Fox. At the very least, Ivy and Mewtwo seem superior. Even Wolf might have an edge on him.
Im glad more people starting starting to noticing this. Im not sure about Ivy though but only because Im not too knowledgable about him. Definitely mewtwo though. Ima go ahaead and say fox, Mewtwo, MK, Pit, and mario have the matchup on falco. There are others too but it's harder to determine.

What is wrong with pit's arrows?
As for pit, Im not saying anything is wrong with his arrows just that I recall lots of people complaining about it and wanted to know where people stood on determining if it's too much or not.
 
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Ali Baba 177

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 18, 2014
Messages
274
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Washington
Hey so there is like a week left in the month so Im gonna start lookin at the community tier list and putting things together, if you havent voted than fill the survey in my signature out!
 

DrinkingFood

Smash Hero
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
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Beaumont, TX
Warning Received
How about no

and somehow I didn't previously realize that you could teleport in any direction, not just up forwards.
Are you kidding here
because like, even my older sister knows this
she doesn't even play the game
she died at child birth, way before any smash games came out
and even she knows this

Did you also know, you can run either left OR right?
it's amazing I know
 
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Terotrous

Smash Champion
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Feb 4, 2014
Messages
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Are you kidding here
It's been a really long time since I played Melee. And I didn't ever play Mewtwo in that game and neither did anyone else.


Also breaking news, Zeldas use Farore's Wind on the ground to approach like Mewtwo does.
That starts up WAY slower, and it also has cooldown. Mewtwo has cooldown in the air, but as far as I can tell air teleport has no recovery and he can act on the first frame.
 

CORY

wut
BRoomer
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Dec 2, 2001
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mewtwo's teleport has a window where you can't act. i can't recall the amount, i want to say 8 frames? if you know where mewtwo wants to be, you can throw something out there and it'll hit before mewtwo can do anything to you.

and if you grounded farore's, then you can wd out of it, which only has the 10 frames of landing lag. so, it's not the fastest thing, but it's pretty nice to use as a super extended wd with invincibility attached.
 
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