PlateProp
Smash Master
And most of the things he wanted to happen in exchange for the nerfs that were applied didnt happen. (I read his essay on bowser before it was taken down).
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
InfamousLuffy
Smash Apprentice
Here's my tierlist: (Dont hate me and it isn't by order)
S:
A+:
A:
B:
B-:
C:
S:
A+:
A:
B:
B-:
C:
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PlateProp
Smash Master
D
Deleted member
Guest
if it was a good joke, wouldnt i be aware of it? if i dont get it, its very likely no one else does either
I cant make fun of something that isn't even finished otherwise id be closed minded.Here's my tierlist: (Dont hate me and it isn't by order)
S:
A+:
A:
B:
C:
TheGravyTrain
Smash Ace
Mumbo
Smash Journeyman
Ah yes, D tier.
PlateProp
Smash Master
Your sense of humor is f tier
And you somehow managed to miss two posts from me and nausicaa saying that what we said were jokes that were right under the first two posts
TheGravyTrain
Smash Ace
This is funny because of how surprisingly accurate it could be. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch for someone to think that...
steelguttey
mei is bei
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2014
- Messages
- 1,674
InfamousLuffy
Smash Apprentice
Do you think I should put him up a tier?
steelguttey
mei is bei
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2014
- Messages
- 1,674
InfamousLuffy
Smash Apprentice
What tier, m8? I edited the post of my tier list check it up.
Searing_Sorrow
Smash Journeyman
Zss was used as an example because she was considered widely as low tier, but through the use of blaster cancel tech and taking advantage of a seemingly bad tether grab, they were able to create a meta for her outside of the perceived expectations of her. Overall she has been comparatively made better with the new updates, but the reason she was played and the unique interactions the players loved about her is gone. In its place is a still good character, but not as unique as the old zss
InfinityCollision
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2014
- Messages
- 1,245
Eh... I don't know if I'd say she's better. Certainly not in a vacuum, probably not even relative to the rest of the cast. More fleshed out maybe, but that has little to do with the changes in 3.5/3.6beta. 3.02 ZSS was underrated, if unconventional and a bit "gunked-up" in terms of certain things not working as they should.
You could easily make an argument for her being overall nerfed from 3.0, even with the de-gunking. Paralyzer is obvious, down-b mostly nerfed (kick partially buffed), nair arguably nerfed (less range, damage increase limits comboability slightly), fsmash either nerfed or bit of both (might kill sooner? rear hits don't combo as well), dsmash maybe nerfed (damage/knockback were reverted to 3.0 in 3.6beta, think it still carries less momentum on startup though), jab1 arguably nerfed (doesn't jab reset as long), upb hitboxes are smaller, side-b arguably nerfed... and of course tether recoveries as a whole got nerfed. Her only clear buffs from 3.0 to 3.6beta are utilt, dtilt, usmash (still awful, but maybe not for the reason I initially believed - poor coverage on the final hitboxes might be its biggest issue right now), fair (could perhaps link a touch more reliably, but definitely buffed), and dash attack.
Then there's the ever-controversial grab, the one change that changed everything. Even setting aside the changes to her throws, it's actually rather difficult to argue that the new grab is a straight buff outside of a vacuum. Changing her grab broke so many existing interactions with the rest of her kit. It drastically altered the way she interacts with the rest of the cast, because now she has to operate at a different spacing and with different tools in order to get that grab. I don't think people really understand how that single change affects her matchups or even just the overall cohesion of her kit. The old grab didn't just make sense in her kit, it was an integral part of it.
Nine months after the fact, I'm still baffled by the direction she's been pushed in. Early ZSS had the makings of a brilliant character built around amazing movement and unique, interesting vortex gameplay. There are still some elements of that design in place, but much of it has been supplanted by normalized leftrightleft and dthrow->techchase mechanics and I firmly believe it's a downgrade in design. We don't need a female Falcon wannabe.
You could easily make an argument for her being overall nerfed from 3.0, even with the de-gunking. Paralyzer is obvious, down-b mostly nerfed (kick partially buffed), nair arguably nerfed (less range, damage increase limits comboability slightly), fsmash either nerfed or bit of both (might kill sooner? rear hits don't combo as well), dsmash maybe nerfed (damage/knockback were reverted to 3.0 in 3.6beta, think it still carries less momentum on startup though), jab1 arguably nerfed (doesn't jab reset as long), upb hitboxes are smaller, side-b arguably nerfed... and of course tether recoveries as a whole got nerfed. Her only clear buffs from 3.0 to 3.6beta are utilt, dtilt, usmash (still awful, but maybe not for the reason I initially believed - poor coverage on the final hitboxes might be its biggest issue right now), fair (could perhaps link a touch more reliably, but definitely buffed), and dash attack.
Then there's the ever-controversial grab, the one change that changed everything. Even setting aside the changes to her throws, it's actually rather difficult to argue that the new grab is a straight buff outside of a vacuum. Changing her grab broke so many existing interactions with the rest of her kit. It drastically altered the way she interacts with the rest of the cast, because now she has to operate at a different spacing and with different tools in order to get that grab. I don't think people really understand how that single change affects her matchups or even just the overall cohesion of her kit. The old grab didn't just make sense in her kit, it was an integral part of it.
Nine months after the fact, I'm still baffled by the direction she's been pushed in. Early ZSS had the makings of a brilliant character built around amazing movement and unique, interesting vortex gameplay. There are still some elements of that design in place, but much of it has been supplanted by normalized leftrightleft and dthrow->techchase mechanics and I firmly believe it's a downgrade in design. We don't need a female Falcon wannabe.
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DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
The grab change was a huge ****ing buff to ZSS lol. The power of her DD compliments a quick grab perfectly. She basically never really has to struggle with CC now the way she's set-up. IDC how she was designed before, you should be focused on how she is now.
"We don't need a female Falcon wannabe" is not an actual argument, please contribute to the thread meaningfully
"We don't need a female Falcon wannabe" is not an actual argument, please contribute to the thread meaningfully
Searing_Sorrow
Smash Journeyman
How is his statement saying he feels zss was homogenized to be too similar to an already created character in falcon not meaningful.
She currently is no longer a vortex character, but gets overall more benefit from dd grab. Personally I think that compared to the rest of the cast she was overall buffed, but people that played her for her free flowing mobility would disagree. (Like having rob with no side b)
Also important to note just cause you don't care how a character used to be, doesn't mean that the players that invested tons of hours into the character don't care. This is what I commented on when I said made better and normalized cuts out the uniqueness of the character and what made the mains want to pick her up in the first place.
She currently is no longer a vortex character, but gets overall more benefit from dd grab. Personally I think that compared to the rest of the cast she was overall buffed, but people that played her for her free flowing mobility would disagree. (Like having rob with no side b)
Also important to note just cause you don't care how a character used to be, doesn't mean that the players that invested tons of hours into the character don't care. This is what I commented on when I said made better and normalized cuts out the uniqueness of the character and what made the mains want to pick her up in the first place.
zman804
Smash Ace
So, 3.6 is ACTUALLY out now I guess. A surprising amount of changes.
http://projectmgame.com/en/news/project-m-3-6-full-changelist
http://projectmgame.com/en/news/project-m-3-6-full-changelist
Warzenschwein
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2014
- Messages
- 331
I want to hear opinions on Bowser and DDD ASAPPPPPPP
zman804
Smash Ace
I can't tell if the DDD dair change fixes it or makes it even worse. Bowser having a down throw on KK is pretty cool.
AuraMaudeGone
Smash Ace
These Bowser changes sound sexy.
Ayyye, Paragon might be more interesting.
Ayyye, Paragon might be more interesting.
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Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
more importantly chevy, you have a roll now. For the rest of you as well:
Spot Dodges and Rolls have been normalized. This is pretty important:
Rolls (before): http://i.imgur.com/vFXWwHG.png
Rolls (after): http://i.imgur.com/o2HkGsV.png
Spotdodges (before): http://i.imgur.com/UJ5gVIM.png
Spotdodges (after): http://i.imgur.com/JpMhFdb.png
Some characters' defensive options have gotten worse. Some have gotten better.
Fat characters have had rolls/spotdodges normalized and (generally) improved.
Spot Dodges and Rolls have been normalized. This is pretty important:
Rolls (before): http://i.imgur.com/vFXWwHG.png
Rolls (after): http://i.imgur.com/o2HkGsV.png
Spotdodges (before): http://i.imgur.com/UJ5gVIM.png
Spotdodges (after): http://i.imgur.com/JpMhFdb.png
Some characters' defensive options have gotten worse. Some have gotten better.
Fat characters have had rolls/spotdodges normalized and (generally) improved.
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ZGE
Smash Apprentice
ZELDAS REAPPEARANCE HITBOX ON FARORES IS NOW UNCLANKABLE, YESSSSS! This is what I've always wanted!
AuraMaudeGone
Smash Ace
This. This was a good choice.
Chevy
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2014
- Messages
- 736
My spotdodge is 2 frames worse though, Samus is unviable now.
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Absolutely.
Life
Smash Hero
It doesn't say ROB's weight and fall speed changes were applied this time. Huehue.
PlateProp
Smash Master
apparently pmdt thinks squirtle mains want to be killing people with just dsmash more every patch
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cmart
Smash Lord
The damage was significantly increased, so the knockback growth was compensated to maintain the same knockback as before.
FreeGamer
Smash Ace
Kirby's Cutter Dash might actually be useful now. This pleases me. :O
j/k i misread the changes and it's actually a dreadful nerf
j/k i misread the changes and it's actually a dreadful nerf
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cmart
Smash Lord
A quick comparison of KB between Squirtle's downsmash and several other downsmashes that behave very much like it. We received feedback that Squirtle's 3.6B KB was uncommonly bad at low percent, and on investigating it became apparent this was true. The changes bring Squirtle's downsmash in line with others, while maintaining what the original 3.6B change accomplished in increasing its KB curve.
Life
Smash Hero
I disagree with this logic.
A quick comparison of KB between Squirtle's downsmash and several other downsmashes that behave very much like it. We received feedback that Squirtle's 3.6B KB was uncommonly bad at low percent, and on investigating it became apparent this was true. The changes bring Squirtle's downsmash in line with others, while maintaining what the original 3.6B change accomplished in increasing its KB curve.
All of those dsmashes (possibly excepting Bowser? Don't remember the frame data offhand) have much quicker startup than Squirtle's, effectively functioning as "get off me" moves. Squirtle has no need for such a move; he moves really fast, and his traction means he can often just shield and he'll get pushed away from ground pressure. What he has more difficulty with is mid-to-high percent followups, a function which dsmash fulfilled very well in 3.5 but was much worse at in 3.6 (can't speak for the new one as I haven't tried it yet). It also covered multiple options in a techchase scenario, caught spotdodges and rolls, etc.
All in all, 3.6beta dsmash was a pretty irritating nerf to Squirtle, who, while not exactly unplayable, was never really in line with the likes of Fox, Wolf, Marth, Roy, etc.
Or if you meant this argument in a game design sense, not a balance one: comparing moves in a vacuum doesn't really work because each character has different tools to work with. Or should we bring Falco usmash more in line with Fox's?
tl;dr Why SHOULD Squirtle dsmash function like Pikachu/Bowser/ROB dsmash?
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So, uh, Roy's back air sends at Sakurai angle now. Discuss?
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Binary Clone
Easy Money since 1994
Though Sakurai angle might be a bit dramatic, it did need a better angle. The past angle made it a terrible killmove, especially on certain stages. It was incredibly easy to DI right to the corner, and since it didn't have quite enough KB to kill very hard, it didn't end up doing much for his kill consistency in a lot of matchups, especially the ones that depend more heavily on getting aerial kills where he can't combo into smash kills.
He'll probably need toning down in other parts of his kit to compensate, though.
Searing_Sorrow
Smash Journeyman
The ddd dair change if I read right is more vulnerable to cc since bkb matters more at low percent. Was hoping to see a small buff in kill power on diddy somewhere since fair got the horrid sak-a-fry angle, but instead a Roy Bair nerf, sheik throws are back, and rob auto engage side b here again.
Won't judge patch, curious to see is this a start to new buffs to add more uniqueness than the standard dd grab and space aerials.
Won't judge patch, curious to see is this a start to new buffs to add more uniqueness than the standard dd grab and space aerials.
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Ripple
ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2006
- Messages
- 9,633
Dair knockback was a buff on DDD since it was grossly over compensated in the beta.
Not sure on the multihit stuff, probably a nerf knowing the DT. Will provide feedback at a later date.
But I'm pretty upset they didn't listen to anything else I said when they listened to umbreon finally. My character's options didn't really get any better on the ground or in the air, I'm still forced to pay avoidance
Not sure on the multihit stuff, probably a nerf knowing the DT. Will provide feedback at a later date.
But I'm pretty upset they didn't listen to anything else I said when they listened to umbreon finally. My character's options didn't really get any better on the ground or in the air, I'm still forced to pay avoidance
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D
Deleted member
Guest
to be fair i worked with the dev team extensively to arrive at the finished product. i suggested a list of changed values exactly in private, which was meant for the final build of the game but it was considered too power for the cast's anemic power level. hopefully i get to revisit my ideal build of sheik, and to have other characters fairly buffed up to match her.