Tier List Speculation

[tasteless gentleman]

There's more that would go into those decisions - how easy or fast can fast characters get you to 100; fat to 70? What tools do each have to survive? In what ways do they all kill - top, side blast zones, spikes, edge guards, suicide move options? What are your options when offstage; options when opponent is offstage? It isn't just a kill percent and setup question

I am sensing some slight biased feelings in this... do you think bowser deserves to be f tier? Like are you offended that he can still walk? I mean his kill options are really bad now, You have not played me since this patch so i dont expect you to know how much got gutted off bowser, but he cant recover, alot of character can react tech chase him now or combo/chain grab him to kill percent, his smashes are junk (besides down smash), his trajectories are whack. I mean do i have to go through the whole change log?

 

[JOE!]

Should we just remake him as BiS Bowser? We should just remake him as BiS Bowser.

 

[Jonyc128]

I did that during 3.5, or as near as my limited technical ability allowed. Hit me up on skype and I'll send you the build for giggles.

Zard's fsmash imo is emblematic of the kind of thing fatties should have more of in terms of kill moves: slightly slow, high commitment, ludicrous kill power.

I've always thought that bowser's Fsmash should be like Zards, more so in the fact that Zards actually moves forward, is relatively fast and has ridiculous kill power

 

[PlateProp]

I did that during 3.5, or as near as my limited technical ability allowed. Hit me up on skype and I'll send you the build for giggles.

Zard's fsmash imo is emblematic of the kind of thing fatties should have more of in terms of kill moves: slightly slow, high commitment, ludicrous kill power.

Pls no that disjoint on his ftilt was crazy ;-;

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

I am sensing some slight biased feelings in this... do you think bowser deserves to be f tier? Like are you offended that he can still walk? I mean his kill options are really bad now, You have not played me since this patch so i dont expect you to know how much got gutted off bowser, but he cant recover, alot of character can react tech chase him now or combo/chain grab him to kill percent, his smashes are junk (besides down smash), his trajectories are whack. I mean do i have to go through the whole change log?

There's no need to be sensitive. He asked valid questions that would have to be answered eventually.

 

[didds]

I will for sure.
Just threw it together really quick to check out that smash-apps thing, but I'll try to make sense of it as best I can when I do.
No sense in just posting my perspective without description when it won't make any sense to anybody around here otherwise.

Zards F-Smash is sex on a tooth

You'll prolly say some madness like pika being good or something, we don't need that blasphemy around here. Mk is gahlik btw

 

[Nausicaa]

MK was gahlike when he had a divekick that beat everything that was in the game Smash Bros Project M
Now he's just like a gah (AKA like a fax)

Edit: I just discovered I can report myself
Totally gonna do that sometime


also didds SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

 

[Binary Clone]

I am sensing some slight biased feelings in this... do you think bowser deserves to be f tier? Like are you offended that he can still walk? I mean his kill options are really bad now, You have not played me since this patch so i dont expect you to know how much got gutted off bowser, but he cant recover, alot of character can react tech chase him now or combo/chain grab him to kill percent, his smashes are junk (besides down smash), his trajectories are whack. I mean do i have to go through the whole change log?

I'm pretty sure you're misreading what Rizner is saying. There was nothing unreasonable in his post, or anything even specifically about Bowser, let alone anything close to implying that Bowser deserves to be bad or shouldn't be buffed.

Rizner is simply saying that these types of decisions are not cut-and-dry. If Bowser has a killmove that can kill you at 70%, well, how well does it combo? When does it combo? Are there low-percent combos where he can use this killmove for lots of percent? How well does it edgeguard?

Giving Bowser a Knee is not the proper solution. The problem with his fair before was that it overcentralized his game plan a bit. If your killmove is too good, or doesn't cooperate with the rest of his kit properly, you get a fat, slow Falcon, with probably worse conversions.

If your killmove is also an anti air and a gimp or something, that's practically all you're going to use. Opponent offstage? Use that move. Opponent whiffed? Punish with that move. Opponent above you? Try that move. Got a grab? Follow up with that move. It's dull.

Rizner isn't saying Bowser deserves to be F tier. He's just saying what everyone is saying: Bowser is badly designed. What he's adding is that redesigning a character, especially specifically their bread and butter killmoves, is not cut-and-dry or simple in any way, and there are many things to consider when thinking about their design.

 

[Nausicaa]

I think Bowser is funner in this version of PM than in any smash game to-date, and works pretty well in the state he's in.
With a little help, he'll be both fun to fight as and against, and fair to fight as and against.
PMDT done good.
I trust Bowser will be done gooder as he goes.

Even just a general increase in the size of his moves (to where some of them used to be) would give him more presence on the stage but help him greatly since is smaller/faster.

BUUUUT
Klaw Hopping would be funnier.

Ivy is worse than Bowser in PM right now anyway *cough

 

[tasteless gentleman]

There's no need to be sensitive. He asked valid questions that would have to be answered eventually.

Yea I misunderstood probably, I know risner from a local and I thought he was messing with me, my mistake on that.

I'm pretty sure you're misreading what Rizner is saying. There was nothing unreasonable in his post, or anything even specifically about Bowser, let alone anything close to implying that Bowser deserves to be bad or shouldn't be buffed.
Rizner is simply saying that these types of decisions are not cut-and-dry. If Bowser has a killmove that can kill you at 70%, well, how well does it combo? When does it combo? Are there low-percent combos where he can use this killmove for lots of percent? How well does it edgeguard?
Giving Bowser a Knee is not the proper solution. The problem with his fair before was that it overcentralized his game plan a bit. If your killmove is too good, or doesn't cooperate with the rest of his kit properly, you get a fat, slow Falcon, with probably worse conversions.
If your killmove is also an anti air and a gimp or something, that's practically all you're going to use. Opponent offstage? Use that move. Opponent whiffed? Punish with that move. Opponent above you? Try that move. Got a grab? Follow up with that move. It's dull.
Rizner isn't saying Bowser deserves to be F tier. He's just saying what everyone is saying: Bowser is badly designed. What he's adding is that redesigning a character, especially specifically their bread and butter killmoves, is not cut-and-dry or simple in any way, and there are many things to consider when thinking about their design.

Bowser never had a knee type move, his fair never had such potency or ease of landing from a throw or command grab. I really think just overall changes to his approach game and DI game and tech rolls (basic stuff, nothing fancy) will work wonders

Should we just remake him as BiS Bowser? We should just remake him as BiS Bowser.

What is this BiS bowser you speak of?

Also, I apologize for any negativity I spread, I just been frustrated as of late based on personal stuff

 

[AceGamer]

What is this BiS bowser you speak of?

Also, I apologize for any negativity I spread, I just been frustrated as of late based on personal stuff

BiS = Bowser's inside Story, the 3rd game in the Mario & Luigi rpg series

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Bowser's inside Story I think? Pretty sure its the design they used for Sm4sh Bowser

*edit* ninja'd

 

[tasteless gentleman]

BiS = Bowsers inside Story, the 3rd game in the Mario & Luigi rpg series

Wait is this a for real build? I Would love to see this, where can I locate such a thing?

 

[didds]

MK was gahlike when he had a divekick that beat everything that was in the game Smash Bros Project M
Now he's just like a gah (AKA like a fax)

Edit: I just discovered I can report myself
Totally gonna do that sometime


also didds SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

You can't silence my stubs

 

[Rizner]

I am sensing some slight biased feelings in this... do you think bowser deserves to be f tier? Like are you offended that he can still walk? I mean his kill options are really bad now, You have not played me since this patch so i dont expect you to know how much got gutted off bowser, but he cant recover, alot of character can react tech chase him now or combo/chain grab him to kill percent, his smashes are junk (besides down smash), his trajectories are whack. I mean do i have to go through the whole change log?

As others have mentioned, I'm just saying there's a lot to think about and all of the just change x option posts don't often enough address what that would actually do or affect in an overall kit, plus how it addresses against or for his weaknesses or strengths that should be modified

 

[Boiko]

@ Nausicaa you post some of the more interesting theories here (by interesting, I mean not generally agreed upon, outlandish, etc.). I'm not saying you're wrong about anything, or that I disagree, I'm not trying to express an opinion. But I think that it would be helpful if you clarify why you think certain things. For example, how can you justify Sheik being 30th of 41? Or Ivy being the worst in the game? I try to follow your posts, but it seems that you have a hard time keeping it on one track. I know that you have interesting insight, I would just like to see a clear explanation.

 

[didds]

@ Nausicaa you post some of the more interesting theories here (by interesting, I mean not generally agreed upon, outlandish, etc.). I'm not saying you're wrong about anything, or that I disagree, I'm not trying to express an opinion. But I think that it would be helpful if you clarify why you think certain things. For example, how can you justify Sheik being 30th of 41? Or Ivy being the worst in the game? I try to follow your posts, but it seems that you have a hard time keeping it on one track. I know that you have interesting insight, I would just like to see a clear explanation.

Don't worry, he mentioned that he's not posting the list until he has time to make some write ups on why things are

 

[Ripple]

the first and last character are the best/worst character of that tier.

characters next to them could possibly be swapped with who I think is best/worst

no other order.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I think I agree with Nausicaa on Ivysaur potentially being the one of the worst characters in the game. Maybe not the worst (Bowser, DDD, or a few others have potential to beat Ivy out), but when I think of Ivy I don't see a lot of positives. All Ivy seems to have in neutral is Razor leaf, dtilt, and bair. Of those, dtilt is all that combos into stuff. Ivy has an abusable recovery, a terrible grab (does down throw ever reliably combo or is back throw for positioning her best throw?), nothing other than spacing to deal with cc, etc. The only upsides are the potential for healing and some kind of crazy kill moves, though hard to set up/not always available (Up B and Solar Beam respectively). I just don't see the upside other than her gimp game, which is kind of meh imo.

 

[redbeanjelly]

the first and last character are the best/worst character of that tier.

characters next to them could possibly be swapped with who I think is best/worst

no other order.

Are Shiek and Zelda one entity on your list, or do you really think Zelda is in B tier? Not sure how I would feel about the latter.

 

[PlateProp]

@ Nausicaa you post some of the more interesting theories here (by interesting, I mean not generally agreed upon, outlandish, etc.). I'm not saying you're wrong about anything, or that I disagree, I'm not trying to express an opinion. But I think that it would be helpful if you clarify why you think certain things. For example, how can you justify Sheik being 30th of 41? Or Ivy being the worst in the game? I try to follow your posts, but it seems that you have a hard time keeping it on one track. I know that you have interesting insight, I would just like to see a clear explanation.

he's just been listening to umbreon alot

 

[ZGE]

This is a legitimate question: what makes ROB S tier? I only play with ROB a little bit and have never played a good one, so I'm curious as to what strengths he has that make him so respected.

 

[Life]

This is a legitimate question: what makes ROB S tier? I only play with ROB a little bit and have never played a good one, so I'm curious as to what strengths he has that make him so respected.

Really good edgeguarding, really good throws, hard to combo, maybe a couple other random things idk

 

[CELTiiC]

This is a legitimate question: what makes ROB S tier? I only play with ROB a little bit and have never played a good one, so I'm curious as to what strengths he has that make him so respected.

Great edge guarding, has good throws with his u-throw as a kill throw and d-throw for following up, has a pretty respectable recovery, has an aerial DD along with a decent grounded DD, has two great projectiles, a good kit and with his current weight and fall speed is hard to combo as a character.

 

[KinGly]

Great edge guarding, has good throws with his u-throw as a kill throw and d-throw for following up, has a pretty respectable recovery, has an aerial DD along with a decent grounded DD, has two great projectiles, a good kit and with his current weight and fall speed is hard to combo as a character.

Why does no one talk about his tilts? Dtilt and ftilt are godlike lol

 

[CELTiiC]

Why does no one talk about his tilts? Dtilt and ftilt are godlike lol

I didn't say them directly but implied them when I mentioned he had a good kit. I should have mentioned them though, they are very good.

 

[Nausicaa]

You can't silence my stubs

I can try

@ Nausicaa But I think that it would be helpful if you clarify why you think certain things.

For example, how can you justify Sheik being 30th of 41? Or Ivy being the worst in the game? I try to follow your posts, but it seems that you have a hard time keeping it on one track. I know that you have interesting insight, I would just like to see a clear explanation.

It's odd from my end partially because I don't actually know what is outlandish and what isn't. If that makes sense.

Asking me to explain stuff thoroughly enough to make sense would be like you trying to explain essentially the entire general perspective that the greater-community has of the game.
Examples
-You'd have to go into detail on how TL can play the same game-plan against a lot of the cast and how that shuts down a lot of characters almost completely, while barely taking a toll on others, but that his aerial and disjoint game makes the same game-plan work against all those who don't mind the bombs because the rest of that aerial/disjoint kit allows for such a strong counter-approach that he still goes to bomb-tossing as a center rather than fishing for D-Tilts against characters that bomb-tossing doesn't work against.
Then do that with every character about everything.

- Another is how I never understood how people thought Luigi, Wario, GW, ROB, Sonic, Pika, Ike --- I don't even know who else people thought were bad, were BAD, and I couldn't really tell you if they're STILL thought of as bad. To me, they never were, and I never pay enough attention to what everyone else is saying regarding viability, but rather pay attention to things like...

-How can one character deal with these things/this character.
-How can those things/that character deal with that one character's stuff.
-back and forth

Which is the only thing Tier-List discussion is ever really useful for. Trying to learn the game, it makes a good catalyst for it.
The rest goes over my head.
Glad it gets mentioned though.


The 2 things you specifically pointed out.
Sheik I've heard recently is starting to get a few people saying she's being overrated. Probably due to the massive band-wagon of 'Sheik is OP' that happened not long ago. During that time, I actually addressed why I think Sheik is a 'par' character quite a bit, but lots was likely lost in the pages of convo.
The Ivy thing, just a few pages back I addressed a question about who were the 'worst 10' in the game, and discussed a bit of Ivy and why I thought she was on the weak side.

I'll do more later though, as this person said.

Don't worry, he mentioned that he's not posting the list until he has time to make some write ups on why things are

SHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

he's just been listening to umbreon alot

Umby is a noob at posting. Though if my posts are making it look like I'm quick to jump to conclusions, stick to them with bias and cockiness, while being inconsistently indecisive long-term, then I can totally see how my posts could look like Umby posts.
And I can totally see how my posts could look like Umby posts if I'm not careful with working in the elaborate rants I have about obscure things.
Noobs for life, don't listen to any of us.

Why does no one talk about his tilts? Dtilt and ftilt are godlike lol

Freaking THIS^
It's like Ganon's B-Air.
It just makes the character's other stuff work by existing in the midst of it all.
The Tilts could be gone and he'd be good, then this stuff exists and he's great.

 

[PlateProp]

It was a joke about how umbreon thinks shiek is unplayable in 3.6b

 

[Nausicaa]

Mine was a joke about how he's

quick to jump to conclusions, stick to them with bias and cockiness, while being inconsistently indecisive long-term

 

[Ripple]

Umbreon told the DT how to "fix" sheik so that she would be viable at top level of play and they didn't listen to him. he was going on and on about it at LTC3 and he was pretty upset about it. it may be more of a pride thing. that or he believes that the DT isn't going in a direction that is good for the game, so he stopped playing and contributing except for that shiek thread in their forum.

 

[PlateProp]

Umbreon told the DT how to "fix" sheik so that she would be viable at top level of play and they didn't listen to him. he was going on and on about it at LTC3 and he was pretty upset about it. it may be more of a pride thing. that or he believes that the DT isn't going in a direction that is good for the game, so he stopped playing and contributing except for that shiek thread in their forum.

I know why he's upset with the game, but yeah, does seem to take little of what top players say in to help with certain characters (Such as Odds stuff with bowser). But hopefully that will change when the applications open up

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

I know why he's upset with the game, but yeah, does seem to take little of what top players say in to help with certain characters (Such as Odds stuff with bowser). But hopefully that will change when the applications open up

Too bad in the mean time we lose more and more of a very diverse and fundamentally sound talent pool of top players who feel the game is headed in the wrong direction.

Ever since leaving umvc3.02, seems like more and more characters have become normalized. Not saying they are not still good (Zss being a good example), its just what made them unique has been slowly chipped away with each patch. At max competitive play in melee, there were 6 characters (fox, falco, sheik, marth, peach, and jigglypuff.) that you had a reasonable chance of winning a whole tournament of equally talented people with. Each character down from those 6 decreased your likelihood of winning by raising the value of some variable x. (100 - .6x). This means in order to compete, many players with different playstyles were forced/heavily persuaded to use a character in the top 6 in order to ensure the best chance of winning, even if that character didn't fully compliment their style of play.

Part of the selling point of pm compared to melee was that the larger variety of characters, and uniqueness of their specials and normals allowed for player b to choose the character that best compliments his/her style of play and still be viable. A character doesn't have to be able to beat fox, as long as the player can compete with the other player using fox. 3.02 to 3.5 was right in the idea to tone down on options, but did a bit too much that effected the core of the designed character in some of the worst case scenarios (see zelda).

Now 3.02 was silly and full of more character Jank than should ever be legal (Mario fireball and mew two existence etc). For balance going forward, it seems like more emphasis was put on what 3.02 did wrong, instead of how to improve on what was done right to get the interest spike from people in the first place.

Though I could be completely wrong, it kind of seems like more and more people have mixed views on the beta of 3.6 so far.
(Important note I am still highly grateful for the amount of effort put into creating the game, and met some great people from playing it. )

Now in order to make this long post on topic, outside of theory crafting about diddy's "perfect" neutral, can we at least agree he goes even/ has too many slight disadvantage matchups to be considered S tier? He is s tier after the opponent passes 35% all the way until it is time to get a kill.

 

[PlateProp]

Too bad in the mean time we lose more and more of a very diverse and fundamentally sound talent pool of top players who feel the game is headed in the wrong direction.

Ever since leaving umvc3.02, seems like more and more characters have become normalized. Not saying they are not still good (Zss being a good example), its just what made them unique has been slowly chipped away with each patch. At max competitive play in melee, there were 6 characters (fox, falco, sheik, marth, peach, and jigglypuff.) that you had a reasonable chance of winning a whole tournament of equally talented people with. Each character down from those 6 decreased your likelihood of winning by raising the value of some variable x. (100 - .6x). This means in order to compete, many players with different playstyles were forced/heavily persuaded to use a character in the top 6 in order to ensure the best chance of winning, even if that character didn't fully compliment their style of play.

Part of the selling point of pm compared to melee was that the larger variety of characters, and uniqueness of their specials and normals allowed for player b to choose the character that best compliments his/her style of play and still be viable. A character doesn't have to be able to beat fox, as long as the player can compete with the other player using fox. 3.02 to 3.5 was right in the idea to tone down on options, but did a bit too much that effected the core of the designed character in some of the worst case scenarios (see zelda).

Now 3.02 was silly and full of more character Jank than should ever be legal (Mario fireball and mew two existence etc). For balance going forward, it seems like more emphasis was put on what 3.02 did wrong, instead of how to improve on what was done right to get the interest spike from people in the first place.

Though I could be completely wrong, it kind of seems like more and more people have mixed views on the beta of 3.6 so far.
(Important note I am still highly grateful for the amount of effort put into creating the game, and met some great people from playing it. )

Now in order to make this long post on topic, outside of theory crafting about diddy's "perfect" neutral, can we at least agree he goes even/ has too many slight disadvantage matchups to be considered S tier? He is s tier after the opponent passes 35% all the way until it is time to get a kill.

maybe they should play some of the mid tiers who never lost that kind of stuff *shrug*

 

[Mage.]

Ever since leaving umvc3.02, seems like more and more characters have become normalized. Not saying they are not still good (Zss being a good example), its just what made them unique has been slowly chipped away with each patch.

Now in order to make this long post on topic, outside of theory crafting about diddy's "perfect" neutral, can we at least agree he goes even/ has too many slight disadvantage matchups to be considered S tier? He is s tier after the opponent passes 35% all the way until it is time to get a kill.

Could you elaborate on the first part? I sort of get what you mean but at least to me every character still plays differently.

Also I don't think he's S tier. He doesn't feel that powerful and the few times i've played against him I haven't had that much trouble. S tier should be for characters that can immediately be identified just through playing a few matches as a strong character. I haven't felt that nor experienced it from playing against diddy.

 

[Nausicaa]

S tier should be for characters that can immediately be identified just through playing a few matches as a strong character.

Mewtwo says meow

 

[Player -0]

I'm still curious. Why hasn't Snake's up Throw been made less dumb? I'm fairly certain I mentioned this in 3.02 and definitely by 3.5. It chain grabs at low percents, leads to sticky, kills at higher percents WITHOUT sticky. The worst part is he has another amazing tool that meshes with his kit amazingly, down Throw.

Then I'll mention sticky again and how at ~110 percent (character dependent), you actually can't go halfway up the screen or you just die.

I've mentioned this before and a bunch of other people have too.

I could also mention how D Smash is ******** by ledge (you have to sweetspot in the hardest of spots or SDI like a mofo to stage tech, rip ROB) or how sticky somehow gets you when you're behind Snake (not talking about him jumping through your shield and stickying or anything.)

 

[Strong Badam]

I know why he's upset with the game, but yeah, does seem to take little of what top players say in to help with certain characters (Such as Odds stuff with bowser). But hopefully that will change when the applications open up

Odds was consulted directly for Bowser's development for 3.6, actually.

 

[Saproling]

Too bad in the mean time we lose more and more of a very diverse and fundamentally sound talent pool of top players who feel the game is headed in the wrong direction.

Ever since leaving umvc3.02, seems like more and more characters have become normalized. Not saying they are not still good (Zss being a good example), its just what made them unique has been slowly chipped away with each patch. At max competitive play in melee, there were 6 characters (fox, falco, sheik, marth, peach, and jigglypuff.) that you had a reasonable chance of winning a whole tournament of equally talented people with. Each character down from those 6 decreased your likelihood of winning by raising the value of some variable x. (100 - .6x). This means in order to compete, many players with different playstyles were forced/heavily persuaded to use a character in the top 6 in order to ensure the best chance of winning, even if that character didn't fully compliment their style of play.

Part of the selling point of pm compared to melee was that the larger variety of characters, and uniqueness of their specials and normals allowed for player b to choose the character that best compliments his/her style of play and still be viable. A character doesn't have to be able to beat fox, as long as the player can compete with the other player using fox. 3.02 to 3.5 was right in the idea to tone down on options, but did a bit too much that effected the core of the designed character in some of the worst case scenarios (see zelda).

Now 3.02 was silly and full of more character Jank than should ever be legal (Mario fireball and mew two existence etc). For balance going forward, it seems like more emphasis was put on what 3.02 did wrong, instead of how to improve on what was done right to get the interest spike from people in the first place.

Though I could be completely wrong, it kind of seems like more and more people have mixed views on the beta of 3.6 so far.
(Important note I am still highly grateful for the amount of effort put into creating the game, and met some great people from playing it. )

Now in order to make this long post on topic, outside of theory crafting about diddy's "perfect" neutral, can we at least agree he goes even/ has too many slight disadvantage matchups to be considered S tier? He is s tier after the opponent passes 35% all the way until it is time to get a kill.

I could argue against this in Ivysaurs case since they really want her to heal and be shooting beams while they take away from other areas she honestly needs a bit more more in.

 

[Ripple]

Odds was consulted directly for Bowser's development for 3.6, actually.

why?

 

[Deleted member]

****ing done

edit:

he's just been listening to umbreon alot

apparently you're not, if you heard what i was saying about sheik at all you'd know i was trying to fix several problems with her, not just her throws going from "too good" to "unusable".

Umby is a noob at posting. Though if my posts are making it look like I'm quick to jump to conclusions, stick to them with bias and cockiness, while being inconsistently indecisive long-term, then I can totally see how my posts could look like Umby posts.
And I can totally see how my posts could look like Umby posts if I'm not careful with working in the elaborate rants I have about obscure things.
Noobs for life, don't listen to any of us.

yeah i ****post a lot, but its still better than a lot of people that have no idea what they're talking about. i wouldnt mind talking to boiko about why sheik sucks in 3.6b for example, except i already posted that exact argument in full like 3 weeks ago in this very thread.