Tier List Speculation

[PlateProp]

A quick comparison of KB between Squirtle's downsmash and several other downsmashes that behave very much like it. We received feedback that Squirtle's 3.6B KB was uncommonly bad at low percent, and on investigating it became apparent this was true. The changes bring Squirtle's downsmash in line with others, while maintaining what the original 3.6B change accomplished in increasing its KB curve.

Life pretty much said the other stuff, so I'll cover what he didnt.

3.6B's Dsmash was weak yes, but there was no reason to reduce the base even further and jack up the growth so much. It actually wasnt even that bad, 3.6B dsmash would hard knockdown Fox at 30%ish (Everyone's real problem was that Fox could asdi down and shine Squirtle between the second and 3rd hits of dsmash if you snagged him out of the air with it)
This change removes a ton of squirtle's followups on almost everyone but heavies past 90% with dsmash, if not out removing all followup ability if they just di up. You can BARELY uair mario now. If you guys wanted to make Dsmash better at lower percents you should have just bumped up the KBG from 80 ten or twenty points, and left the base as is.

 

[Deleted member]

wait, you want to be able to dsmash people at 90%, and then combo people out of it?

 

[PlateProp]

wait, you want to be able to dsmash people at 90%, and then combo people out of it?

Follow up, not combo

Squirtle has always been able to dsmash > follow up, that was the entire tradeoff of dsmash being worse at low percents

 

[Soft Serve]

It not like squirtle lacks other conversions into aqua jet at that %, dtilt, ftilt, upair, etc

 

[PlateProp]

It not like squirtle lacks other conversions into aqua jet at that %, dtilt, ftilt, upair, etc

Dsmash > AJ was stupid (and for whatever reason I never saw anyone but Dirtboy and I ever use it) but I fully expected and wanted it to get patched out which a slight kbg increase would have accomplished. But losing all other options but uair at higher percents is dumb.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Anyone see the Fox change? Now the one kind of legitimate complaint from fox mains is removed, aerial shine changes only affect aerial opponents...

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Bowser is really really good now, at least at first play against computers, ill figure more out tomorrow

 

[CyberZixx]

really hype to try out Roy's new Bair, sounds like it could really aid with his kill consistently.

 

[Binary Clone]

really hype to try out Roy's new Bair, sounds like it could really aid with his kill consistently.

After playing around with it a little bit, it's nice. It's easier to connect in general, making it more flexible at lower percents to finish off shorter combos. As a killmove, it's also more effective where it should be. It kills off the sides sooner, it's still possible to DI to or close to the corner, but not punishes players who do not DI it properly by hitting at a much lower angle. Previously, even no DI would put them towards the corner. That means that floaties don't die to it as early unless they DI up or something, but bair against floaties has never really been a great option, since it's tough to combo into on them.

 

[eideeiit]

ROB side-b is back.

Why?

 

[Warzenschwein]

I'm a R.O.B hater but his 3.6b Side-B just looked laughable. There's one thing I hate even more than R.O.B: Bad special moves.

looking at u

(ง •̀_•́)ง

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

really hype to try out Roy's new Bair, sounds like it could really aid with his kill consistently.

Prepare to be thoroughly disappointed, may it's essentially a 45% angle, so even worse angle than the original bair.

 

[Ripple]

DDD's dair start up went back from 12 > 9 apparently (didn't notice on phone). probably not even gonna care about the muti hit move change.

Dair is mostly back.

 

[TTTTTsd]

DDD's dair start up went back from 12 > 9 apparently (didn't notice on phone). probably not even gonna care about the muti hit move change.

Dair is mostly back.

They also fixed inhale <3.

Liking how this patch is panning out for most characters. Looks like a very solid refinement in areas that needed it. Mostly lookin like the Bowser patch though, with that new Klaw D-Throw option. Oh and of course ACTUAL GOOD TECH ROLLS

 

[Binary Clone]

Prepare to be thoroughly disappointed, may it's essentially a 45% angle, so even worse angle than the original bair.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the original bair was closer to 45 degrees. Angles aren't measured in percentages, by the way.

This one hits at closer to thirty degrees with no DI. The changelog specfiically says that the angle was lowered, so correct me if I'm wrong, but that typically means that the knockback angle is... well, lower.


EDIT: According to cmart:

They make it objectively better (better coverage, better angle for KO) even if only slightly.

 

[Ghetto Blush]

Doesn't an aerial Sakurai angle send at 45 degrees?

 

[Sardonyx]

I'm just sitting here waiting for Zelda to stop getting changed in unnecessary ways

 

[TheGravyTrain]

It was 50 degrees, now its sakarai angle (around 45). For horizontal kill moves, lower angles are always better.

 

[JesteRace]

Am I reading this right? Did they fix Link's upsmash? Please say yes.

 

[Shadic]

Though Sakurai angle might be a bit dramatic, it did need a better angle.

It's an angle change of 50 -> 45. That's uh.. Not dramatic.

 

[Binary Clone]

It's an angle change of 50 -> 45. That's uh.. Not dramatic.

I misremembered what that angle was, my b

 

[CORY]

ganon's nair still sucks.
#riot

normalized spot dodges/rolls seems pretty cool, especially for the non-ganon fatties who had terrible ones previously.

bowser's stuff looks really cool : O hopefully it's what he needs to put him up to viability.

rip 3.6b leeeew-eeeee-jeeeee. new announcer seems to be an overall buff, though.

 

[Deleted member]

Follow up, not combo

Squirtle has always been able to dsmash > follow up, that was the entire tradeoff of dsmash being worse at low percents

i think i speak for the entire project m community when i say this:

>__________________________________________>

 

[Binary Clone]

@ Frost | Odds , what are you opinions on Bowser now? Besides C H A O S D U N K of course.

Is it just me, or is using KK to grab ledge much easier now?

 

[Life]

I just went into training mode as Bowser vs. Roy and killed him off the edge with klaw fthrow into klaw dthrow.

At 20%.

Granted, that's on no DI, and it's Roy, but there you go.

Now to find something more realistic...

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ Frost | Odds , what are you opinions on Bowser now?

I'm gonna win Paragon, mostly due to people not bothering to learn proper DI against Bowser. There will be salt.

I think he's probably well on his way to being a viable solo main. There's still some maps and matchups that will cause actual hell, but I'm probably not going to bother practicing secondaries for the next month.

 

[PlateProp]

i think i speak for the entire project m community when i say this:

>__________________________________________>

You complain about how everyone isint strong enough, but when someone wants to retain their options (that came from a move that wasnt super great in the first place) you backpedal

No wonder more and more people stop listening to you

 

[Binary Clone]

You complain about how everyone isint strong enough, but when someone wants to retain their options (that came from a move that wasnt super great in the first place) you backpedal

No wonder more and more people stop listening to you

I thought Shots Fired was supposed to be months ago.


Also, it makes me sad that the KK dthrow takes so long/has so much vertical drift when used. It means that you can't use it very low and still make it back, which is fair, but it'd be fun to be able to do dropzone KK dthrow, which I don't think you can quite do and still live. I'm not totally sure though.

 

[Ripple]

GFs paragon going to be me and odds.

unless I run into bladewise. **** peach

 

[Frost | Odds]

Bladewise is a scrub though, ez money

Just play your Samus or smth.

D3 viable now?

 

[Life]

You can get klaw dthrow spike cheese a la Mewtwo from the ledge, if you're willing to SD for trying.

@ Binary Clone you do know that hitting A speeds up the animation right?

 

[Frost | Odds]

Not really, @ Life . Opponent can pretty easily SDI/DI towards the stage and tech pretty easily if you're trying to do that stuff from the ledge.

 

[Ripple]

Bladewise is a scrub though, ez money

Just play your Samus or smth.

D3 viable now?

I personally have a peach weakness (along with ganon)

did you know peach can d-throw > dash attack DDD from almost 0 until at least 180%

D3 is back to where is was mostly in 3.5, if not slightly better I think

 

[Life]

Not really, @ Life . Opponent can pretty easily SDI/DI towards the stage and tech pretty easily if you're trying to do that stuff from the ledge.

Are you sure? When I tested on Battlefield using the slow klaw animation, Bowser dropped pretty far below the stage. Obviously doesn't work on like GHZ but...

 

[Deleted member]

You complain about how everyone isint strong enough, but when someone wants to retain their options (that came from a move that wasnt super great in the first place) you backpedal

No wonder more and more people stop listening to you

i mean, i support things that make sense. having setups at 90% is pretty nice, but from a smash attack? the idea of a smash attack is that you want to hit them harder, setups are usually relegated to throws and tilts and occasionally projectiles. i support characters being better on the whole but also intuitive, and squirtle is anything but intuitive to play against. having a dsmash as a setup at 90% is not intuitive to play against, all it does is confuse players that reasonably expect squirtle to play like other smash characters.

looking hypocritical in the face of a trade-off is common because having two ideas that oppose each other is going to have some natural tension, it makes sense to handle each of them as an ad hoc situation and not with the stipulation of following generalized guidelines. for an easy example, we took out a lot of the "fun" aspects of PM going from 3.02 to 3.5...to make the game more fun. if you really wanted to solve the issue with squirtle dsmash, you would change its properties to solve the ASDI issue that you mentioned, make it have good knockback at 90% like you would expect a smash attack to have, and then if you still thought squirtle was underpowered, you would step back and look at the character as a whole rather than stapling on questionable jank that will alienate your playerbase.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Are you sure? When I tested on Battlefield using the slow klaw animation, Bowser dropped pretty far below the stage. Obviously doesn't work on like GHZ but...

Ah, if you let yourself start falling before the dthrow, maybe. I haven't tested that much.

 

[Akhenderson]

3.6 hits, and I see that Ness literally gets only his dtilt changed with nothing addressing his core weaknesses as a character. He was debatable whether he is either bad or good, with more people leaning towards bad.

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut since no changes occurred to Ness's weaknesses, along with his common counters getting buffed, Ness is probably one of the worst characters in the game. Rip.

 

[Phubs]

@ Ripple do you think inhale->spit->fair could work with the harder breakout from the star?

 

[Chevy]

Bladewise is a scrub though, ez money

Just play your Samus or smth.

D3 viable now?

The day Ripple beats Bladewise with Samus is the day I quit PM.

You can get klaw dthrow spike cheese a la Mewtwo from the ledge, if you're willing to SD for trying.

@ Binary Clone you do know that hitting A speeds up the animation right?

As far as I understand, A just inputs forward throw. Speeding up the animation is just inputting which throw you want.

 

[PlateProp]

i mean, i support things that make sense. having setups at 90% is pretty nice, but from a smash attack? the idea of a smash attack is that you want to hit them harder, setups are usually relegated to throws and tilts and occasionally projectiles. i support characters being better on the whole but also intuitive, and squirtle is anything but intuitive to play against. having a dsmash as a setup at 90% is not intuitive to play against, all it does is confuse players that reasonably expect squirtle to play like other smash characters.

looking hypocritical in the face of a trade-off is common because having two ideas that oppose each other is going to have some natural tension, it makes sense to handle each of them as an ad hoc situation and not with the stipulation of following generalized guidelines. for an easy example, we took out a lot of the "fun" aspects of PM going from 3.02 to 3.5...to make the game more fun. if you really wanted to solve the issue with squirtle dsmash, you would change its properties to solve the ASDI issue that you mentioned, make it have good knockback at 90% like you would expect a smash attack to have, and then if you still thought squirtle was underpowered, you would step back and look at the character as a whole rather than stapling on questionable jank that will alienate your playerbase.

The key word here is "usually"

And you cant honestly expect people to think that Squirtle would play/work like other Smash characters other than Luigi on the ground.