Tier List Speculation

[Binary Clone]

You can get klaw dthrow spike cheese a la Mewtwo from the ledge, if you're willing to SD for trying.

@ Binary Clone you do know that hitting A speeds up the animation right?

I was wrong. I just tested it in debug mode. If you start KK just before you reach ledge, he'll push off and do aerial, but even if you go just off the ledge so that you're in the air and immediately use KK dthrow, you will be able to make it back. This works without speeding it up, and I can't say I'm sure you can actually speed up the aerial dthrow animation.

 

[Deleted member]

The key word here is "usually"

And you cant honestly expect people to think that Squirtle would play/work like other Smash characters other than Luigi on the ground.

if your goal is to make 1 character out of 41 not play like a smash character in a smash game, you deserve all the resistance you get.

 

[Life]

I'm not certain there's a window where you can grab someone *and* spike them without them being able to tech into the stage *and* make it back all at once, but you can generally get 2/3.

Petition to rename this thread "Bowser Tech Speculation."

 

[TheGravyTrain]

So now that everyone seems to be happy with the bad characters, who can we complain about being terrible. Are Ness and Ivy the new DDD and Bowser?

 

[PlateProp]

if your goal is to make 1 character out of 41 not play like a smash character in a smash game, you deserve all the resistance you get.

Yes, because having one smash that sets up into a follow up makes him play completely not like a smash character.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Snip

You said this, while Sheik's F-Smash was made into a combo move.

Anyway. I think @ Frost | Odds and co-mains could make Bowser high C tier (or higher) this patch.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Are Ness and Ivy the new DDD and Bowser?

They're not nearly as bad as D3 and Bowser were, but yeah, that's pretty much my impression.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Yeah, I dont get what being a smash attack changes anything. Zelda's up tilt kills, is that something that will change because its unintuitive? Smash attacks can be charged, tilts can't. Tilts are usually quicker and usually geared towards combos, while smashes are usually slower and geared towards killing. Obviously there is going to be exceptions in both cases.

 

[Deleted member]

Yes, because having one smash that sets up into a follow up makes him play completely not like a smash character.

more like it indefensibly contributes to that situation when it doesnt have to and you could solve your initial problem with it at the same time. but yes thats the right idea. why wouldnt you just fix the character correctly in the first place? why complicate the issue? we go from having a problem that we currently have, to your ideal which is still problematic. nothing is actually solved.

 

[Life]

You know who else has a smash attack that sets up into followups? Fox. Probably Falco too. Also Charizard. And Wario. And Zelda. And Link. And Toon Link. And...

 

[Deleted member]

I like Roys bair

Looks cool imo

 

[Deleted member]

You know who else has a smash attack that sets up into followups? Fox. Probably Falco too. Also Charizard. And Wario. And Zelda. And Link. And Toon Link. And...

you mean ZSS dsmash, as an exception (which is also not intuitive but at least visually makes sense). having high BKB moves at low % is not what we're talking about. no one uses any of those moves as a setup at 90% and you know it.

 

[PlateProp]

more like it indefensibly contributes to that situation when it doesnt have to and you could solve your initial problem with it at the same time. but yes thats the right idea. why wouldnt you just fix the character correctly in the first place? why complicate the issue? we go from having a problem that we currently have, to your ideal which is still problematic. nothing is actually solved.

It doesnt contribute anything except to some imaginary "squirtle doesnt play like a smash character" concept you have. If smash moves shouldnt setup into anything then we should remove Lucario, Link, Samus's usmashes, ROB's dsmash and probably others I cant think of right now too. You're acting like NO other character has a smash they can use to setup into other moves.

 

[Jonyc128]

You know who else has a smash attack that sets up into followups? Fox. Probably Falco too. Also Charizard. And Wario. And Zelda. And Link. And Toon Link. And...

Also Mario's Upsmash

 

[TTTTTsd]

To talk more about why Koopa Klaw D-Throw is really good, you dig deeper and you find some nasty ****. Firstly, the timing is variable. Bowser has about 8-10 frames I think after Side-B initially connects to use it, meaning that even though tech in place is in theory the best option (even though Bowser usually gets a free jab against MOST chars not Fox or maybs Wolf), the fact that he can mess with your tech timing on this throw and what this throw does to missed tech followups is insane.

It's really good but MOSTLY because of the delayability of the throw itself, ADDITIONALLY it works at % ranges as high as like, 135, etc.

It's very very rewarding when used properly.

 

[Life]

I'm reasonably sure Bowser has enough frame advantage to dsmash after klaw dthrow and cover 3/4 tech options on most characters. It's like +11 or something, but I'll double check.

EDIT: Well, Sheik goes out of range on neutral tech, so I guess it's fewer characters than I thought.

 

[DiZZ]

So the only change from my list that was used was spotdodge change on dk ..... thanks for the kinda buff and nerf to double dunk with side b dk for worst in game now

 

[Chevy]

Bowser is a monster now. Goddamn downsmash from 13 to 7 is a godsend. Having a good klaw option in the air/against floaties is amazing.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

you mean ZSS dsmash, as an exception (which is also not intuitive but at least visually makes sense). having high BKB moves at low % is not what we're talking about. no one uses any of those moves as a setup at 90% and you know it.

There is this other good character you may not have heard of called sheik, I think her forward smash may lead into other moves at that percent, but this is all speculation.

Joking aside, at 90%, only wario up smash, Charizard down smash, falco up smash, diddy up smash, (weak hit marth up smash [don't do it though]), maybe roy up smash, zss down smash, samus up smash, mario up smash, snake dacus pop up, and sheik forward smash have the ability to combo into other moves, and some of them are bad options or require to be against a fast fall character or heavyweight. With that being said, squirtle's down smash having a slightly stronger combo potential than wario up smash seems reasonable considering wario has the movement burst of dacus with his, Though it may make squirtle down smash a weaker Edge guard option so... give and take

 

[PlateProp]

There is this other good character you may not have heard of called sheik, I think her forward smash may lead into other moves at that percent, but this is all speculation.

Joking aside, at 90%, only wario up smash, falco up smash, diddy up smash, (weak hit marth up smash [don't do it though]), maybe roy up smash, zss down smash, samus up smash, mario up smash, snake dacus pop up, and sheik forward smash have the ability to combo into other moves, and some of them are bad options or require to be against a fast fall character or heavyweight. With that being said, squirtle's down smash having a slightly stronger combo potential than wario up smash seems reasonable considering wario has the movement burst of dacus with his, Though it may make squirtle down smash a weaker Edge guard option so... give and take

Edgeguarding with dsmash is silly, unless your opponent is Fox and they decide to up b straight up into the first two hitboxes

Then it's hilarious

 

[Nausicaa]

Serious note. That universal-option normalization thing makes things smooth and proper. (fatties feel good)

Joke note. Pika's jab and Ganon's jab and MK's jab don't work like normal jabs, plz fix

Serious note. Sheik can secure kills off more than stray aerials again. cool.

Joke note. Doc was over-buffed ascetically.

 

[Ripple]

@ Ripple do you think inhale->spit->fair could work with the harder breakout from the star?

not unless people try and jump over us like always

 

[Player -0]

I don't see a problem with Squirtle's D-Smash being almost exclusively a combo tool (I would actually prefer it to be like SFIV Seth's wind thingy where it pulls you in). Proper DI can just be into Squirtle (so it sends at a really weak Samus/Peach angle).

Spoiler: Pro Diagram

 

[Warzenschwein]

I don't see a problem with Squirtle's D-Smash being almost exclusively a combo tool (I would actually prefer it to be like SFIV Seth's wind thingy where it pulls you in). Proper DI can just be into Squirtle (so it sends at a really weak Samus/Peach angle).

Spoiler: Pro Diagram

View attachment 68709

nice

 

[Ripple]

AHHHHHH ****. PMDT DONE ****ED UP NOW.

SH > dair now auto cancels.

It Is ****ing over

 

[Chevy]

So now that everyone seems to be happy with the bad characters, who can we complain about being terrible. Are Ness and Ivy the new DDD and Bowser?

DK and Ganondorf probably.

EDIT: Meteor cancel is now 10 frames, not 12 btw. At least it doesn't appear to be bufferable anymore lol.

 

[DiZZ]

AHHHHHH ****. PMDT DONE ****ED UP NOW.

SH > dair now auto cancels.

It Is ****ing over

so d3 buffed but dk nerfed with side b and just change with spot dodge do you think hes the worst of the heavies now because I do :/

 

[The Baron]

AHHHHHH ****. PMDT DONE ****ED UP NOW.

SH > dair now auto cancels.

It Is ****ing over

Son, this is what happiness looks like

 

[DiZZ]

DK and Ganondorf probably.

I think ganon is fine if anything I think dk is the worst in his own tier of viability as bowser had last update

 

[DrinkingFood]

Equally bemused that DK got almost nothing as I am that they made ROBs side b good again

 

[Manaconda]

Is there any information on pummelling out of grabs in PM as opposed to Melee/Brawl? I'm pretty bad at in and usually I take 2 pummels at around 40% to escape, but if I remember correctly, in PM I've escaped after 1 pummel at like 60%.

 

[DiZZ]

Equally bemused that DK got almost nothing as I am that they made ROBs side b good again

I said it before I'll say it again dt hates dk

 

[Chevy]

DK doesn't need straight buffs, he needs some heavy changes to make him in to an interesting character.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I dont think Ganondorf is that bad. But I am not really taking into account the Nair change, I keep forgetting how important that was. Better or worse than Zard? Also, right now my bottom five is, in some order, Ivysaur, DK, Ness, Link (I just don't see how he is good), and Pit (way overhyped character imo).

 

[Chevy]

I dont think Ganondorf is that bad. But I am not really taking into account the Nair change, I keep forgetting how important that was. Better or worse than Zard? Also, right now my bottom five is, in some order, Ivysaur, DK, Ness, Link (I just don't see how he is good), and Pit (way overhyped character imo).

Ganondorf isn't that bad, no one is really bad, but someone has to be bottom tier.

 

[DiZZ]

I dont think Ganondorf is that bad. But I am not really taking into account the Nair change, I keep forgetting how important that was. Better or worse than Zard? Also, right now my bottom five is, in some order, Ivysaur, DK, Ness, Link (I just don't see how he is good), and Pit (way overhyped character imo).

Link is way better then people put him same with ness if you have ever seen stereo kid or red1 play you would know for a fact they are no where near bad

 

[Zoa]

****ing loving the Bowser changes. Frame seven dsmash, spike on floaties, and normalized dodges? Found a secondary.

 

[Phubs]

DK doesn't need straight buffs, he needs some heavy changes to make him in to an interesting character.

What if dk had a vine or something that he could tether with

 

[nimigoha]

So this Klaw spike is really flipping strong. All my friends are getting mad at me for using it. Kills at like 30%...

I'd love to see KB values. Wouldn't be too surprised if it got needed in the future. For now it's fun AF though.

 

[Chevy]

What if dk had a vine or something that he could tether with

We should be removing tethers for the sake of design not adding them lol. At least until we get something a little better than sorta balanced Brawl tethers.