Tier List Speculation

[TheGravyTrain]

Link is way better then people put him same with ness if you have ever seen stereo kid or red1 play you would know for a fact they are no where near bad

And you can go watch a billion Poob/Shane gfycats doing crazy stuff, doesn't mean DK can't still be bad. Bottom 5 characters still look really solid. I haven't been convinced on Link that he can't be bottom 5. He just seems kind of meh. His neutral is nothing special, his punish game devolves into "juggle with up air" pretty quickly on a lot of characters, I see Hero of Time/Red rely on and miss up b's a lot when he really wants a kill, etc... When it comes down to it, there have to be characters that end up at the bottom of the tier list. I guess you could argue for putting like 15 people in a tier at the bottom so nobody's feelings get hurt, but I'm not buying it. Idk about Ness, just kind of popular opinion plus it makes sense. Last I watched Stereo kid, he relied heavily on jab resets for his punish game, so if his opponents ever learn to tech...

 

[Hylian]

Link is way better then people put him same with ness if you have ever seen stereo kid or red1 play you would know for a fact they are no where near bad

I honestly really believe that it because this game is very balanced. Lower tiered characters can win against better ones if they outplay them pretty consistently. You also have to account for novelty and match-up knowledge.

For example I think IC's are somewhere around the middle of the cast. When I play someone who doesn't know what to do against IC's at all it's like they suddenly become a top 5 character because my opponent just gives me a lot of free stuff. When I play someone who knows the match-up, and is playing a character like peach IC's feel like a bottom 5 character in the game. I think Link is certainly on the lower-end of the spectrum of characters. I've played people in my scene for a really long time with Link, and a lot of them can beat, or do really well against my Link where they couldn't before. I still preform against them the same with pretty much all my other characters, so either I suddenly got a lot worse with Link, or the character got worse over time. I think he's viable, just towards the lower end of the cast. I shouldn't be doing better vs falcons with IC's than I do with Link lol.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Yeah, the novelty factor is really underrated.

There are a couple local, relatively bad players who do as good, or better, against my Bowser than world-class players like Sethlon, simply because they've got a better ingrained understanding of how to fight the character. Nobody's immune to the novelty factor (aka lack of matchup knowledge), though extremely adaptable players given strong campy characters who can avoid interaction (cough, Fox) can largely mitigate the effect. Compare how hard Lucky recently got bopped by MrLz at EVO with @Alphicans 's performance in the same matchup against the same GnW.

 

[Trollinguy]

The secret Jigglypuff buff we have been waiting for....

Bridge of Eldin is back....


Time to get out those final smashes.

 

[Zoa]

All hail Gigalypuff.

 

[TriffHR]

I was confused why there isn't Mewtwo Top-Tier before realizing how old this thread is haha

 

[Idostuff]

Some post blacklisted tier list thoughts:

1) Junebug is a god. More importantly, before i thought that people were over rating Diddy simply based off June's performances. However after watching him in person, i firmly believe that Diddy is a top 5 character. His options in neutral with a banana, crazy combos, and huge utility with all of his special moves give him all the tools he need to win in probably any MU.

2) Something i never understood is why Mewtwo isnt' universally considered a top 10 character. On paper he has so many strengths. Hes got a command grab, float cancels, an insane recovery (i saw Frozen recover multiple times from the bottom corner of dreamland), a decent projectile that has the added ability of being able to turn you around in the air, a kill throw, and more. But then Falcon comes in and says "lol downthrow knee" and Mewtwo dies. So yeah, somehow it doesn't all come together and i am now at peace with everyone putting M2 at B tier ish.

3) I watched Shiny Zubat (Yoshi) lose a set, last stock last hit last game, to Darkblues (Bowser) due to some serious tail jank that Yoshi has to deal with. Basically Yoshi tried to swat bowser recovering low with a d-tilt at the ledge. But bc the tail hurtbox comes out a frame before the hitbox (somethin we talked about extensively a few pages back in this thread), Yoshi got hit, bowser got to the ledge and immediately jumped side b backthrowed for the win. PMDT plx fix.

4) G&W is cancer. For all the reasons that everyone else has already stated over and over again.

Anyway overall, i had a wonderful time playing my favorite game this weekend. Even if i did drown in pools and still am a total scrub, i still managed to learn a lot about my play and MU specific knowledge.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Actually, I did some more research and discussion in the Social thread about Yoshi dtilt. The hurtbox doesn't extend a frame before, it extend the frame of the hitboxes. I meant to test more, but I have only tested for a hurtbox near the tip. For ground to ground moves, it will clank anyways since the hitbox seems to cover it, but transcendant moves like meta knight dtilt and aerial moves will be able to hit this hurtbox. For example, Ganondorf up b can grab this hurtbox and it looks really weird because he just teleports to Yoshi.

 

[DrinkingFood]

2) Something i never understood is why Mewtwo isnt' universally considered a top 10 character. On paper he has so many strengths. Hes got a command grab, float cancels, an insane recovery (i saw Frozen recover multiple times from the bottom corner of dreamland), a decent projectile that has the added ability of being able to turn you around in the air, a kill throw, and more. But then Falcon comes in and says "lol downthrow knee" and Mewtwo dies. So yeah, somehow it doesn't all come together and i am now at peace with everyone putting M2 at B tier ish.

Falcon being able to dthrow knee on mewtwo the way he combos everybody into knee isn't really a knock against MewTwo lol
he is definitely top 10 and I have been saying this for awhile, since shortly after 3.5 came out. When are people going to recognize how crazy HCfair is. Breaks CC ~5%, has disjoint, about 20 frames total duration if done quickly enough. It's +4 on shield / +3/2 on shield if your timing is off. All aerials on safe on shield hover canceled. They're all also quick with disjoint. He also has tools for encouraging approaches and excellent burst reach. He even punishes hard with a combination of reliable kill moves, hover canceled aerials+plain hovering for combos, huge option coverage for edgeguards. He's good on paper, usually that means they're good in reality too. If not, your paper is wrong, not the character

 

[nimigoha]

Plus moonwalk Bair is easy, fun, and actually decent. Mewtwo top 10.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Fastest HC fair timing is +1 on block, and +4 is no longer possible in any scenario since they gave him an extra frame of normal landing lag. You'll only see the full +3 if you do something like hover nair->HC fair with perfect timing and positioning. Uair is often as good or better in neutral since fair's range got nerfed, and its fastest HC timing is also +1.

He's still good, just needs theory put into practice. None of his options are particularly dominant taken individually, his movement is rather demanding in terms of precision, and his mental game is also rather demanding in its own way because of how he can juggle different options and strategies depending on the situation. Bringing it all together is tricky, especially against a character like Falcon that can smother partially-developed gameplans with his DD. It's doable, but Falcon players arguably have a better understanding of their own play & how to execute it than Mewtwo players. That's no small advantage. Give it time.

 

[Saproling]

So now that everyone seems to be happy with the bad characters, who can we complain about being terrible. Are Ness and Ivy the new DDD and Bowser?

Ivysaurs probably a bit better than you're rating her but she does need more and the DT doesn't seem to wanna give that. Instead we get more unnecessary healing f tilt change was good though.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Fastest HC fair timing is +1 on block, and +4 is no longer possible in any scenario since they gave him an extra frame of normal landing lag. You'll only see the full +3 if you do something like hover nair->HC fair with perfect timing and positioning. Uair is often as good or better in neutral since fair's range got nerfed, and its fastest HC timing is also +1.

He's still good, just needs theory put into practice. None of his options are particularly dominant taken individually, his movement is rather demanding in terms of precision, and his mental game is also rather demanding in its own way because of how he can juggle different options and strategies depending on the situation. Bringing it all together is tricky, especially against a character like Falcon that can smother partially-developed gameplans with his DD. It's doable, but Falcon players arguably have a better understanding of their own play & how to execute it than Mewtwo players. That's no small advantage. Give it time.

oh right, forgot about that extra frame on the empty landing. fastest HC fair is still +2, not +1 tho. Fastest HC fair timing puts out fair hitbox for 2 frames before landing. If you hit with the first frame (the fastest possible HC fair) you have an extra frame in there (the second hitbox frame) and then you land. It's 8 frames shield stun, 5 frames landing lag, 1 extra frame hitbox time. +2 on shield. Keep in mind this is still extraordinarily safe lol. ROB's boost fair is safe on shield, it's it's -2. Regardless, HC uair doesn't beat CC at 5 percent. Yes they are both good, but HCfair starts huge punishments at very low percents, and at mid percents you're getting a way better punish off than uair as well. Uair sends at a weird 55 degree angle iirc, which at moderate knockback doesn't give good punishments unless they DI in, and low KB where they can CC lasts for a much longer time than it does for HC fair.

 

[Deleted member]

yeah ive been interested in pushing ike for a while now, but after looking at the character in depth i still think QD loses to proper dashdancing use, and by extension doesnt really address the shortcomings i had using sheik. trying to apply the theory certainly takes a while, but sometimes you're also just wrong too.

 

[InfinityCollision]

You're also forgetting that hitting shield means he'll transition into aerial ECB state, extending the time he spends in the air. I'm quite sure it's +1, I put some time into finding optimal timings and blockstring data for all of his HC aerials not too long ago. Not trying to imply that it's unsafe, just providing accurate frame data.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Hmm actually forgot about hitlag affecting the ECB timing, BRB labbing

EDIT: Oh you are right, completely forgot about that. He lands before the 10 frame refresh window on whiff, but hitlag lets the ECB have long enough to refresh, moving the collision box upward just enough to make his fast fall need 1 more frame to land

 

[InfinityCollision]

-Fair: Release hover frame 0 (frame of input), fastfall frame 5, +1 on block
-Nair: Release hover frame 0, fastfall frame 5, -5 on block
-Uair: Release hover frames 0-1, fastfall frame 6, +1 on block
-Bair: Release hover frames 0-1, fastfall frame 6, -0 (hit frame 9)/-1 (hit frame 8) on block
-Dair: No fastfall, +4 on block

Numbers and stuff~ Optimal HC block advantage for each aerial is +3, -2 (final hit), +2, +1, +4 respectively, for anyone wondering. Tail attacks assume you hit with the outermost hitbox. Frame of input refers to inputting the aerial, obviously ideal timing for that is one frame after entering hover.

 

[Nausicaa]

I like these last couple pages.
They were filled with things I actually both understand and agree with.
Feels rare.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I like these last couple pages.
They were filled with things I actually both understand and agree with.
Feels rare.

Something something Pikachu sucks

 

[ZombieBran]

Hi. Just want to give gold to Downdraft for this flawless post (quoted my favorite part for space reasons).

People that liked aspects of 3.02 Zelda or the character as a whole have far less fun with 3.5 and 3.6 Beta Zelda, to the point that several of them don't even play the character or game much anymore.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Weird that people who didn't like playing as her before find her fun and people also hate playing against her waaay less
it's almost like zelda mains were cancer enjoying cancer

 

[TTTTTsd]

More fun stuff with grounded Klaw D-Throw. The most optimal tech is in place (Bowser is still +11 but yeah) but this also means you can't be holding a direction when teching. This is where Klaw F-Throw gets kind of annoying. I never thought an additional followup could make a move THIS much better but between the delayability of Klaw D-Throw and this, yeah, damn.

I think this alongside the improved tech rolls (these are ESPECIALLY noticeable, probably the biggest buff) skyrocket Bowser in my mind, at least in a vacuum compared to 3.6b. IDK if he's solo viable (probably not) but I don't think he loses nearly as bad as he did before (especially not in certain MUs thanks to new tech roll, looking at you Marth)

 

[DrinkingFood]

More fun stuff with grounded Klaw D-Throw. The most optimal tech is in place (Bowser is still +11 but yeah) but this also means you can't be holding a direction when teching. This is where Klaw F-Throw gets kind of annoying. I never thought an additional followup could make a move THIS much better but between the delayability of Klaw D-Throw and this, yeah, damn.

I think this alongside the improved tech rolls (these are ESPECIALLY noticeable, probably the biggest buff) skyrocket Bowser in my mind, at least in a vacuum compared to 3.6b. IDK if he's solo viable (probably not) but I don't think he loses nearly as bad as he did before (especially not in certain MUs thanks to new tech roll, looking at you Marth)

yeah this is what I was going to bring up, he has a weird DI-mix-up type thing now
DIing for fthrow forces tech rolls on dthrow. also guarantees you can't tech the stage/DI into the stage if you're at the edge/in the air near the edge

 

[TTTTTsd]

yeah this is what I was going to bring up, he has a weird DI-mix-up type thing now
DIing for fthrow forces tech rolls on dthrow. also guarantees you can't tech the stage/DI into the stage if you're at the edge/in the air near the edge

Yeah, this alongside his ability to disrupt tech timing and muscle memory with Klaw D-Throw's variance and Klaw F-Throw is really, really scary. Like, getting Side-B grounded is incredibly rewarding when used correctly, and is pretty much always favorable assuming you do it right.

 

[JOE!]

Question: Do bowser's armored attacks beat get up attacks? If so, Klaw Slam -> Dsmash is stronk.

Speaking of stronk, I have something in mind for DK:

 

[Boiko]

3.6 hits, and I see that Ness literally gets only his dtilt changed with nothing addressing his core weaknesses as a character. He was debatable whether he is either bad or good, with more people leaning towards bad.

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut since no changes occurred to Ness's weaknesses, along with his common counters getting buffed, Ness is probably one of the worst characters in the game. Rip.

To be honest, I think Ness requires a lot of work to be more viable. I don't think there was enough time between 3.6b and 3.6 for Ness' weaknesses to truly be addressed.

That being said, everyone I lost to with Ness, I beat with Samus at Blacklisted.

 

[Flyte27]

A few pages ago, it was mentioned that squirtle's smash attack shouldnt lead to any followup, and that goes against the idea/role of smash attacks.

So what is the role of squirtle's dsmash at mid-high percents?

1. Anti-pressure: In comparison to Rob, Pikachu and Bowser, who have similar down smashes, Squirtle's dsmash doesn't work as a "get off me" move. Rob/pikachu/bowser have 5/6/7 startup respectively, compared to squirtles 16 frame startup. 16 frames is way too slow to get pressure off.

2. Kill move: I'm pretty certain Squirtle dsmash kills later than all the above char dsmashes (only tested pikachu's kill %). For squirtle, I was testing it on PS2 (low ceiling) on olimar (floaty) CPU standing (no DI) and it killed around 170-180%. For a 16 frame startup smash attack, killing >200% on most characters with DI is a pretty horrible kill move.

3. Combo/followup starter: This patch made sure this wasn't the case

So, Squirtle's down smash is just supposed to be objectively bad at higher percents? Since apparently it shouldn't have a followup. Is it that bad to ask for a 16 frame startup move to be rewarding to land?

 

[JOE!]

Charizard's Up -and- Down smashes are combo/followup tools 99.9% of the time instead of KO moves. Is he not a smash character?

 

[Warzenschwein]

Meta-Knights Ftilt is his jab and his actual jab is hoyoyoyoyoyoyo, he's definitely not a smash charater.

 

[The_NZA]

Two of Ness's smash attacks don't do anything. He hasn't been a smash character for 13 years.

 

[JOE!]

We should make the Earthbound characters have a similar gimmick with their smashes:

Lucas gets to make his Smashes overcharged with Nspec, Ness can just yo-yo glitch by charging it all the way or something lol

 

[Boiko]

Make Ness' yo-yo a lasso command grab.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Some of us were messing around in Discord the other day talking about buffing Ness. One idea that was fun to talk about was what if Ness' Magnet could push and/or pull opponents to/away from him? Sounded wacky but it's a cool idea to explore.

Sounds cool yo. Taunt to switch polarity.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Make Ness' yo-yo a lasso command grab.

I say we opt for YOYO MISFIRES that turn his Smashes into flying projectiles!

Pardon me, I should probably shower.

In all honesty, I don't know what to do about chars like Ness or DK, Ness probably has some easier fixes than old DK though, I imagine.

 

[Life]

I think Ness would benefit from more mobility, but that's pretty much always my answer to fix characters with design flaws LOL

 

[The_NZA]

There are a series of small QoL updates you can do to ness without giving him something new like a lasso yoyo or crazy suction magnet. There is already enough depth in Ness's kit. He doesn't exactly need any more "jank" in his deck of cards. He just needs some of his core moves/attributes to do what they are currently doing a little better. Namely, he needs a safer neutral game poke that isn't as hard a commitment on shield as DJC fair, he needs a better stagger game when he actually closes in (mag dash is good until your opponent knows this is a part of your core neutral. After that, they can react to it with aerial OOS decently well). He needs more guaranteed ways ot setup kills on floaties below 140%. He needs ways to kill more characters in general below 140%. And he needs a recovery update that makes it less terrible.

All of that can be done with little tweaks--1% here, 1% there, stuff like that.

 

[Chevy]

To be honest, I think Ness requires a lot of work to be more viable. I don't think there was enough time between 3.6b and 3.6 for Ness' weaknesses to truly be addressed.

That being said, everyone I lost to with Ness, I beat with Samus at Blacklisted.

So you won Blacklisted?(kapper) Or did you only lose when you started as Samus?

 

[Rizner]

Hi. Just want to give gold to Downdraft for this flawless post (quoted my favorite part for space reasons).

Weird that people who didn't like playing as her before find her fun and people also hate playing against her waaay less
it's almost like zelda mains were cancer enjoying cancer

This is ridiculous. Please calm down.

 

[Warzenschwein]

Yeah, that's not funny. Especially not, when your grandparents and many other family members fell victim to... it.

...

Oh wait I wasn't talking about cancer, they got bored to death by a Zelda main Keepo

 

[Boiko]

So you won Blacklisted?(kapper) Or did you only lose when you started as Samus?

That includes money matches. I lost a MM against Darc game five last stock using all Ness. Played him in bracket, games one and two I used Samus and won against his Falcon and lost against his Marth on WW. Game three I went Ness and lost last stock against his Marth. I was actually really disappointed at that point and I didn't even want to play anymore. Hence me losing immediately in loser's. I didn't get a chance to take a break and collect myself. I was just super tilty. My own fault.

But, for example, I lost to Bacon Pancakes with Ness in a MM. So I went Samus in bracket and won 2-0. I lost to Twisty with Ness and although we only played friendlies after, it was pretty clear that I was beating him with Samus. She's just such a better character.