DiZZ
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2012
- Messages
- 140
Thats how dk is in pm but apparently dt thinks he fine
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
TheGravyTrain
Smash Ace
So I did more testing with Yoshi dtilt vs aerials. Despite BrawlBox saying otherwise, there are hurtboxes that un-clankable moves can in fact hit (aerials, transcendent moves, even Ganondorf up b...). Its not just the tip either. Its main use is still good, since not very many ground moves are transcendent and will just clang rather than hitting the hurtboxes, but its usability against recoveries goes down because they can hit the hurtbox. Maybe spacing it better removes that, idk, but it can happen and it should never happen. Add that to the list of Yoshi bugs:
1. Dtilt having hurtboxes when it shouldn't
2. Bair having distorted hurtboxes, possibly up air and dsmash too
3. If you roll and hold shield, you will be stuck in your shield animation (no jumping or anything) for another roll duration.
Add to that the differences with Melee that prevent things like egg stalling from working properly and you get an unhappy userbase. Hey, @Lunchables I heard you worked on Yoshi or something like that, any chance any of these are known and/or have any progress?
1. Dtilt having hurtboxes when it shouldn't
2. Bair having distorted hurtboxes, possibly up air and dsmash too
3. If you roll and hold shield, you will be stuck in your shield animation (no jumping or anything) for another roll duration.
Add to that the differences with Melee that prevent things like egg stalling from working properly and you get an unhappy userbase. Hey, @Lunchables I heard you worked on Yoshi or something like that, any chance any of these are known and/or have any progress?
Attachments
Rᴏb
still here, just to suffer
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2012
- Messages
- 1,595
legitimate complaints:
his throws all share the same animation
bucket braking
it isn't apparently obvious when some of his hitboxes have disappeared
he has RNG
everything else:
"he has 4 sexkicks"
"he is the only character in the game that can escape combos"
"he can punish me when i don't expect it"
"his upb is good"
"he can jump after his upb"
"he is a decent character"
TheGravyTrain
Smash Ace
I think G&W is a cool character. His moves should definitely show when hitboxes go a way, don't know why that hasn't happened yet. Throws could also see a change and I personally wouldn't mind. Bucket braking and rng are fine imo, but I wouldn't care if the latter was nixed for something else. Everything else you mentioned is pretty whiny and typical PM player attitudes. Everyone seems to have that character that just makes them so mad that refuse to acknowledge that the character should be allowed to have good things. Luigi, G&W, who else accumulates this hate?
PlateProp
Smash Master
For me, its mostly the animation thing as well. His hitboxes stay out for such a long time and there is a very short window between when the hitbox is over and he can act again, or so it seems (actually true for F-tilt and F-smash). I used to think the throw animation thing was annoying but you can always press l/r to tech the down thrown, not actually a problem. And then there's how he gets to keep his jump when you hit him out of up-B. Making it so you don't get a punish even off a successful read/ reaction to his escape option. Also the hammer is too good. Like only 2/9 of the judgments are actually bad. When you use side-b you should be gambling and praying to RNJesus that it works out. Not queing it up properly so theres a 1/4 (not actually sure what the number is) chance you get a 9, AND if you dont, it will probably be good anyway.
MEnKIRBZ
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2014
- Messages
- 231
Life
Smash Hero
Ideal hammer queueing gets you up to a 1/3 chance of a 9; most hammer results are pretty good anyway, so yeah.
I personally think it's unfair to talk about the rest of the character when we can't actually tell just by looking how good his lingering hitboxes are. Other than that, I doubt he's in a bad spot, but who knows?
I personally think it's unfair to talk about the rest of the character when we can't actually tell just by looking how good his lingering hitboxes are. Other than that, I doubt he's in a bad spot, but who knows?
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FreeGamer
Smash Ace
Aside from the misleading animations/hitboxes and jumping out of Fire, he's fine.
CyberZixx
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2012
- Messages
- 1,189
like others have said it is annoying his his moves are not visually intuitive to punish at all. Also not huge on his escape options with upb, but I don't like that on sonic either, but it ain't near the issue his hotboxs are, at least you can visually counterplay it.
Chevy
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2014
- Messages
- 736
I don't want to get into a pedantic word battle, but when you say strictly you imply that everything about them is better. Yes Fox is always a better choice at character select, but if you could switch mid match you would want to be Bowser once he is in shield against bad pressure, or when you need a real f-air. Anyway this is all useless dribble I was just trying to make a point about words. Point is Ness most likely wins matchups that Samus loses.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
This really isn't appropriate dude. You should be able to talk about character design without insulting people like this. Cmon man.
InfinityCollision
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2014
- Messages
- 1,245
The truth is likely a bit more politic than that. I'd venture to say that DK is well-known as a relatively weak character. The issue may lie more in lack of agreed-upon solutions, along with the general de-powering trend of 3.5 and 3.6.
~Dad~
part time gay dad
no I would literally never want to be Bowser in melee, ever
Mr.Pickle
Smash Lord
Bowser is completely disgusting in this patch, like I'm still in shock at all this stuff he got, lol 7 frame dsmash, stronger/bigger/lower endlag ftilt, 23% uair, buffs to his command grab just to name a few. The koopa claw is admittedly pretty cool and fun, but it's pretty ridiculous, as the is the rest of the character.
Sid note, link missing a good chunk of his grab is really sad, and they need to patch that asap.
Sid note, link missing a good chunk of his grab is really sad, and they need to patch that asap.
JOE!
Smash Hero
Surprised I got no response to the jungle beat clap idea for DK as an "interrupt" tool
Life
Smash Hero
Technically it's 8 frame dsmash, the way the notes are written (haven't confirmed in game). PM patch notes describe the startup lag of the move, not the first frame a hitbox is out like most people do.
Its neat but i dont really see how it would help him all that much realistically.
I think what Chevy is saying is that there are certain aspects of Bowser that are better than Fox, even if the former is much worse than the latter overall, and that by switching mid-match, he means that at one instant you are Fox, and the very next frame you become Bowser, who arguably has a better fair and OOS option (yes, against certain types of pressure whirling fortress is better than shine).
Also, I posted this three pages ago but nobody cared, so I'll repost it in hopes of a response:
Is there any information on pummeling out of grabs in PM as opposed to Melee/Brawl? I'm pretty bad at in and usually I take 2 pummels at around 40% to escape, but if I remember correctly, in PM I've escaped after 1 pummel at like 60%.
Also, I posted this three pages ago but nobody cared, so I'll repost it in hopes of a response:
Is there any information on pummeling out of grabs in PM as opposed to Melee/Brawl? I'm pretty bad at in and usually I take 2 pummels at around 40% to escape, but if I remember correctly, in PM I've escaped after 1 pummel at like 60%.
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DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
Please don't forget that his up-b is basically luigi's Nair, except it combos until high percent instead of killing at high percent; and if you bait it out he still has a chance to get away unharmed with double jump, bucket stall, and lingering key hitbox making it remarkably difficult and occasionally impossible to cover his options all at once
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PlateProp
Smash Master
GnW Up B is still pretty dumb, but it's nowhere near as big of an issue as his animations. I could see the angle being changed to not allow followups and have it function as a get off me move (instead of being a get off me and comboing into finishers)/ removing his ability to jump after it and seeing what happens. It is really dumb that he can just get away like that, but at the same time GnW does need a little something as an escape due to how light and easily he dies.
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Yeah, but that's an argument that doesn't really matter because you don't have that option.
Narelex
Smash Journeyman
Honestly I find it a little ridiculous how unclear his animations are. How is someone supposed to figure out mid-match when the hitboxes end? Sure prior knowledge is always important but not being able to distinguish active hitboxes is a kind of a silly character strength.
Zigludo
Smash Journeyman
he was definitely a more useful character in 3.5, although he was a bit of a one trick pony.
the new Bowser is much, much better than 3.6b, though. If they made Bowser the same size as he was in 3.5, and reverted the nair to frame 3, I would probably never want them to change anything about the character ever again... the buff to his tech rolls is a dream come true. thanks PMDT we love you cmart
MLGF
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2013
- Messages
- 1,922
3.5 Bowser was super volatile based on stage, MU, and whether or not I know how the **** to play against Bowser.
I feel this one actually has tools that make him more of a consistently good character across all stages/characters. Sure, 3.5 Bowser may have been better in some situations, but this Bowser has less trouble in many situations... and he's significantly less reliant on MU inexperience.
But hey, first impression hype may be making me biased. My Pocket Bowser likely isn't good enough to give a final say.
I feel this one actually has tools that make him more of a consistently good character across all stages/characters. Sure, 3.5 Bowser may have been better in some situations, but this Bowser has less trouble in many situations... and he's significantly less reliant on MU inexperience.
But hey, first impression hype may be making me biased. My Pocket Bowser likely isn't good enough to give a final say.
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once youve finished. you should head to the bug reports section and post a report there. tier list discussion, while read, isnt the best place for exposure.
Zigludo
Smash Journeyman
Edit:
The frame I was able to catch in your video shows the uptilt right next to Fox. I think the attack is just so fast that one frame is to Fox's right and the next is to Fox's left, never touching Fox. Enjoy your hitbox jank.
Edit 2: **** imgur and this site's formatting options, just follow the link below:
http://imgur.com/3j1mXy3
Edit 3: I'm completely wrong.
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TheGravyTrain
Smash Ace
Hitboxes have a thing called interpolation. Debug doesn't show it, but if you want go to a melee hitbox thread and few something like marth fair. You will see the hitboxes "drag". Basically, every frame, hitboxes that move hit in their respective bubbles, where the move hit the last frame, and every hit in between. If you use debug and turn on hitboxes, then again, it will show the previous frame's hitboxes as well so you can see where it hits.
I dont know if you can turn it off per move or if the game could be failing to properly interpolate, but that's the facts.
I dont know if you can turn it off per move or if the game could be failing to properly interpolate, but that's the facts.
Debug shows interpolation, you need to input the hitbox command a second time to turn it on.
Not to take away from your actual point, though... Just clarifying.
Not to take away from your actual point, though... Just clarifying.
Chevy
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2014
- Messages
- 736
None of this matters, I was just disagreeing with your vocabulary choice.
TheGravyTrain
Smash Ace
"If you use debug and turn on hitboxes, then again, it will show the previous frame's hitboxes as well so you can see where it hits."
I know I said before that it doesn't, but right at the end I did clarify. I meant it didn't show the drag lag Melee debug does. I just didn't make that very clear.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
... do you mean mashing? Pummeling is very awful in PM because mashing out is so quick
Razberri
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Jul 12, 2011
- Messages
- 5
- NNID
- Lauqette
- 3DS FC
- 1950-7806-5040
As a Zelda main myself, I actually think that's hilarious and there's some truth to that. If he was saying it specifically about someone and I'm missing something, then tell me, but I honestly agree with it.
There is such a thing as bad character design, and I wouldn't put it over Nintendo to troll us. I kind of feel like, when Sakurai was making Zelda, he was like
"You know what's cool?! Fox's reflector, lets make a character that has something like that. You know what else would be cool?! A projectile that's controllable like Ness', but is more powerful. You know what's cool?! Teleporting, but lets not call it that. OMG, you know what's COOL?! What if there were [something about transform]. You know what's REALLY COOL?!?!!?!?!!?!?!?!? Let's give all this to the SAME CHARACTER?!?!?!?!? OMG WHO COULD DO THIS. Wait. We only have one girl. Let's make a new one and give it to her. But, oh, dammit, there are like zero female characters [doesn't think for more than a few seconds]. I was just at Nintendo conference about Zelda, so lets do that. I know, we can just give all of those powers to Zelda! Why? Because I'm Masahiro Sakurai, and I think it sounds like a good idea.
You know what sounds COOOL?!?! Let's make a character where the fastest move they have isn't a jab. I know, let's make it their down smash, and then they'll be OP, RIGHT?! Oh, and give them a lock like a jab does, but in their down tilt. Oh, wait. That tilt looks too bamf with all the cools specials and dsmash. I know, I'll just keep adding cool stuff and add lag, and that can be the character design. Despite that she's never been in battle, maybe female characters [something inspirational at the time...tear].
You know what would be COOL?!?! Let's have a character with OP aerials! Ones that give like over 20% damage. Well, we've been working on this girl, LETS DO IT Y'ALL...I'M ON A ROLLLOL!"
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