Tier List Speculation

[Frost | Odds]

I wish I could tell whether Yoshi actually sucked, or if I just inexplicably had a magical inability to make him work.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I would say Yoshi isn't too bad. Arguably not bottom 10. The pivot grab nerf definitely doesn't help this, nor does the up air nerf. His punish game is pretty awesome though. My favorite move is probably fair, though up air comes close. When I watched that video of Odds vs Oracle at an IaB and you went Yoshi, I saw glimpses of some cool stuff. Specifically choosing to do a rising up air when you could have reached him, just so you get the followup after. I had never thought of that.

 

[G13_Flux]

I wish I could tell whether Yoshi actually sucked, or if I just inexplicably had a magical inability to make him work.

how well are you DJC nairs? ive found that a lot of his play depends on how well you can make DJC nairs work, and if you can get the most of the possible momentum shifts, and execute proper pressure/shield pressure with it. IMO its one of the hardest yoshi techs to pull off consistently, given that nair is a non directional input by nature, and cant be used in conjunction with the c stick.

 

[Tokei]

how well are you DJC nairs? ive found that a lot of his play depends on how well you can make DJC nairs work, and if you can get the most of the possible momentum shifts, and execute proper pressure/shield pressure with it. IMO its one of the hardest yoshi techs to pull off consistently, given that nair is a non directional input by nature, and cant be used in conjunction with the c stick.

There's the magic of C-Stick set to Attack! Diagonal inputs while airborne execute a nair. I know odds uses it, and I have found it's useful for similar reasons on Ness and Lucas. Works great combined with claw grip, since your thumb doesn't have to leave the c-stick and you retain full aerial drift control.

 

[Vashimus]

When Yoshi had the 2.1 Link/TL silly grab and an instant lead-in non-DIable Down-B hit, and a ground-bounce on D-Air
I got the feeling of "why does this character have these?"

Yoshi D-throw --> Down-B was sooooo not legit.

 

[Player -0]

What do you mean by the Yoshi nerf? Do you mean make it not combo and instead just hit them away? The changes the use of the move entirely. The reason Yoshi's dair was (imo rightfully) changed from 3.0 was because the move had the potential to do 40+ damage AND pop you up really nice for a combo. I was still disappointed to see it leave because I loved the combos you could get off of it and it seem really cool. I would love it G&W could be kept, even if it meant trimming it down some.

The thing is G&W's Dair already is a meteor that pops up for a combo. If you meteor someone off the ground and get the landing hitbox then should G&W get a combo out of it or go into a reset situation with hitstunhitstun?

 

[Nausicaa]

The pivot grab nerf definitely doesn't help this, do a rising up air when you could have reached him, just so you get the followup after. I had never thought of that.

You mean in 1 rising DJ?
That's like a Brawl thing and BnB basics.
Step up your Yoshi game and go watch some Barlw.
lol

The Grab thing was the REALLY hard hit. Used to be a tool that nullified interactions the way Kirby Swallow did.
Stupid, glad it's gone.

 

[Frost | Odds]

There's the magic of C-Stick set to Attack! Diagonal inputs while airborne execute a nair. I know odds uses it, and I have found it's useful for similar reasons on Ness and Lucas. Works great combined with claw grip, since your thumb doesn't have to leave the c-stick and you retain full aerial drift control.

If you set L or R to jump, you don't have to claw.

how well are you DJC nairs? ive found that a lot of his play depends on how well you can make DJC nairs work, and if you can get the most of the possible momentum shifts, and execute proper pressure/shield pressure with it. IMO its one of the hardest yoshi techs to pull off consistently, given that nair is a non directional input by nature, and cant be used in conjunction with the c stick.

My DJC nairs are probably among the best out there. It's my everything else that sucks, lmao.

 

[Binary Clone]

If you set L or R to jump, you don't have to claw.


My DJC nairs are probably among the best out there. It's my everything else that sucks, lmao.

Or Z. I use that, and it's an easy transition from that to claw for when I play Melee. I'm hesitant to do cstick attack because I feel like that'd make the transition between games a good bit tougher.

The thing is G&W's Dair already is a meteor that pops up for a combo. If you meteor someone off the ground and get the landing hitbox then should G&W get a combo out of it or go into a reset situation with hitstunhitstun?

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. If you meteor someone off the ground with it, then they'll be out of range of the landing hitbox.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Or Z. I use that, and it's an easy transition from that to claw for when I play Melee. I'm hesitant to do cstick attack because I feel like that'd make the transition between games a good bit tougher.

As long as I don't play my Melee characters in PM, CSA hasn't really been a problem. I don't consciously think "hit Cstick -> i get an ftilt" or "hit Cstick -> I get an fsmash" - it's simply "I hit C stick -> this happens" -- the biggest reason I don't play chars with bad CSA interactions is it's just too much of a pain to keep track of multiple tags.

 

[PlateProp]

As long as I don't play my Melee characters in PM, CSA hasn't really been a problem. I don't consciously think "hit Cstick -> i get an ftilt" or "hit Cstick -> I get an fsmash" - it's simply "I hit C stick -> this happens" -- the biggest reason I don't play chars with bad CSA interactions is it's just too much of a pain to keep track of multiple tags.

Just play Squirtle, where every cstick angle causes some zany new thing to happen

 

[Warzenschwein]

Playing Squirtle isn't about mastering the tech, it's about compensating in case you **** it up.

 

[PlateProp]

Playing Squirtle isn't about mastering the tech, it's about compensating in case you **** it up.

No it's either sado-masochism or having a hard on for naming things

Or both if you're daft

 

[Narelex]

Or Z. I use that, and it's an easy transition from that to claw for when I play Melee.

Z Jump is honestly super helpful for my MK since you have full air control and ability to put out aerials easily without affecting your direction.

Would highly recommend to anyone that doesn't play melee.

Oh wait tier list talk uhh.. Lucas is better then most people think?

 

[Life]

Friendly reminder that B-Z MULTISHINES

If it weren't for the fact that I'm not planning on resetting over a decade of muscle memory I would totally go for bizarre custom controls like that

 

[JOE!]

I use Z for easy OoS stuff since I dont like tapjump

 

[Sartron]

I guess Sarton needs to update the hitbox thread for Mario then

What is misleading about the data? The auto-cancel window is 1-6, 30-34. That is before frame 7, the active hitbox is 7.
Auto-cancel landings don't have hitboxes on them.

 

[Narelex]

What is misleading about the data? The auto-cancel window is 1-6, 30-34. That is before frame 7, the active hitbox is 7.
Auto-cancel landings don't have hitboxes on them.

Could you update MK's since his were in fact actually changed? Dair has the "sourspot", Foot enlargement was reduced on Dash Attack and ISA was pushed back on his Fsmash.

So how is D3 with the Full 3.6 changes anyway? Ripple seemed pretty excited about his Dair again.

 

[Sartron]

Could you update MK's since his were in fact actually changed? Dair has the "sourspot", Foot enlargement was reduced on Dash Attack and ISA was pushed back on his Fsmash.

So how is D3 with the Full 3.6 changes anyway? Ripple seemed pretty excited about his Dair again.

All my threads are already updated since the release.

EDIT: No more derailing, just pm me since this is tier list spec pls.

 

[Manaconda]

Oh wait tier list talk uhh.. Lucas is better then most people think?

I guess that depends on what people think of Lucas. I've seen people put him up with Fox and friends and sometimes in the middle of the cast.

 

[nimigoha]

Friendly reminder that B-Z MULTISHINES

If it weren't for the fact that I'm not planning on resetting over a decade of muscle memory I would totally go for bizarre custom controls like that

That's what I thought. But if you stick to it for like a week then it's pretty easy. Z jump has literally one downside, and that's playing Melee is weird. Haven't tried claw but I think it would be acceptable.

So many techs involving doing things quickly out of jump are so easy.

And yes, B-Z multishines are good, not as good as B-Z turbo Jiggs multirests though.

 

[Zingabilly]

Bowser is completely disgusting in this patch, like I'm still in shock at all this stuff he got, lol 7 frame dsmash, stronger/bigger/lower endlag ftilt, 23% uair, buffs to his command grab just to name a few. The koopa claw is admittedly pretty cool and fun, but it's pretty ridiculous, as the is the rest of the character.

Sid note, link missing a good chunk of his grab is really sad, and they need to patch that asap.

It better be a bug and they better fix it. it was the first thing I noticed and instantly said "what the F%$#." seems like I say that too much with these updates.

I'm just gonna assume that the complete lack of a grab bubble on the latter part of Links grab was an accident....

it better be.

 

[Narelex]

Link grab nerf was confirmed as unintentional.

 

[Nausicaa]

Z Jump is honestly super helpful for my MK since you have full air control and ability to put out aerials easily without affecting your direction.

Would highly recommend to anyone that doesn't play melee.

Oh wait tier list talk uhh.. Lucas is better then most people think?

You can do that with Claw too. No changed controls required, and you can do it in Melee.
Probably just as much of a mental change as getting used to L/R/Z for jump too.

Is the trade-off to get N-Air with C-Stick really worth losing the full-drift OTHER aerials?
My N-Airs are already sex withOUT C-Stick use, but you'd have to have a REALLY good N-Air to make all 4 other aerials need less optimized drift.
Yoshi has a good U-Air and other stuff too...

 

[FreeGamer]

Is Link's grab going to be fixed in a bugfix patch? Or will that have to wait until 4.0?

 

[Warzenschwein]

There's no way that there isn't going to be a patch. Or do you think they'd let the Roy mains wait for their alt until 4.0?

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Wait, you can't use c stick attack for aerials? Or why can't you have full control over mobility with your other aerials @ Nausicaa ?

 

[Binary Clone]

Is the trade-off to get N-Air with C-Stick really worth losing the full-drift OTHER aerials?
My N-Airs are already sex withOUT C-Stick use, but you'd have to have a REALLY good N-Air to make all 4 other aerials need less optimized drift.
Yoshi has a good U-Air and other stuff too...

What are you talking about? C-stick attack lets you use all aerials with full control. All aerials work fine using the c stick. You go diagonal for nair, regular directions for everything else. Works fine. Just tested it.

 

[Ripple]

While yes it's possible, he saying that is hard to retain FULL drift because you either need to claw, or delay the aerial slightly to move fingers, or even use the joy sicksick which makes you lose full drift

 

[TheGravyTrain]

That doesn't make any sense though because you would have to do that with c stick smash too...

 

[InfinityCollision]

Is the trade-off to get N-Air with C-Stick really worth losing the full-drift OTHER aerials?
My N-Airs are already sex withOUT C-Stick use, but you'd have to have a REALLY good N-Air to make all 4 other aerials need less optimized drift.
Yoshi has a good U-Air and other stuff too...

CSA doesn't impair aerial control for other aerials. The tradeoffs really aren't that big in either direction... do you want perfect control over nair momentum and the ability to jab and ftilt while holding straight down (as opposed to the usual down+back for repeated jab cancels), or frame-perfect crouch dashing and moonwalking plus yet another way to make pivots easy?

I'm just waiting for the day when CSA up/down does tilts (and ideally works with c-stick movement tricks) and CSS diagonal inputs work for jab/nair. Best of all worlds.

 

[G13_Flux]

CSA doesn't impair aerial control for other aerials. The tradeoffs really aren't that big in either direction... do you want perfect control over nair momentum and the ability to jab and ftilt while holding straight down (as opposed to the usual down+back for repeated jab cancels), or frame-perfect crouch dashing and moonwalking plus yet another way to make pivots easy?

I'm just waiting for the day when CSA up/down does tilts (and ideally works with c-stick movement tricks) and CSS diagonal inputs work for jab/nair. Best of all worlds.

how do you get a frame perfect moonwalk using the cstick?

 

[Life]

how do you get a frame perfect moonwalk using the cstick?

Flicking c-stick smash inputs a direction for one frame. If you're holding attack down, you can abuse this to get perfect moonwalks, pivots, etc.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Squirtle gains access to super easy hydropivots and hyrdo crawls too. So instead of retreating and then zipping back in with smashes and grabs, he can manual hydropivot into a tilt or even a shield. That works with c stick on smash as well.

 

[Player -0]

@ Binary Clone G&W can actually combo the meteor into the landing hit quite a lot. His Up B and Up Air set up perfectly onto platforms. There are more stuff but whatev.

I prob gave too specific an example. If he dun messed up his combo starter should he not only get an extra Hitbox to possibly escape punishment but also get a combo out of it that leads to death/ton of damage?

My intuition says no because the move is already a combo starter/extension (lead into tech Chase or landing hit to pop up for extension). But on a character like G&W it's debatable. I personally think G&W has enough other good options to both cover a landing hit that sends diagonal up/away/knocks down or decide he wants to try to not use landing hitbox and use Up B or something to revive the combo.

 

[Manaconda]

how do you get a frame perfect moonwalk using the cstick?

Here's the guide to poverty moonwalks.

 

[jtm94]

@ Binary Clone G&W can actually combo the meteor into the landing hit quite a lot. His Up B and Up Air set up perfectly onto platforms. There are more stuff but whatev.

I prob gave too specific an example. If he dun messed up his combo starter should he not only get an extra Hitbox to possibly escape punishment but also get a combo out of it that leads to death/ton of damage?

My intuition says no because the move is already a combo starter/extension (lead into tech Chase or landing hit to pop up for extension). But on a character like G&W it's debatable. I personally think G&W has enough other good options to both cover a landing hit that sends diagonal up/away/knocks down or decide he wants to try to not use landing hitbox and use Up B or something to revive the combo.

The landing hitbox doesn't escape punishment. Often times when the meteor hitbox and the landing hitbox hit it is harder to combo. You can DI the landing hitbox forward significantly, the only bonus is added damage. Down air is a strongly unsafe combo starter and is merely an extender for pseudo not guaranteed pillars. If you meteor someone and they tech in a direction there's nothing you can do about it, it isn't nearly as comparable to something like Ness' dair where you hit them into the ground then react to the tech and dair them again. GnW's dair and movement doesn't facilitate this kind of combo starting, Dair is really good for damage, but honestly I think it would often times be better to continue to keep the opponent above you in disadvantaged positioning where you continually poke them with safe uairs. Dair does have use when above platforms, however, because the platform limits their tech options in a way that allows GnW to actually follow up on them.

The landing hitbox only comes into play when the opponent doesn't tech after being meteor'd(which is a mistake on their part). It's unsafe on shield and you can even grab him before he lands because the other hitboxes also are not safe on shield. After a single interaction with GnW you can acknowledge the existence of his landing hitboxes and begin to habitually shield them all the way until he hits the ground before you grab him. It is not so "hocus pocus" that any competent player would not realize this.

 

[DrinkingFood]

The landing hitbox doesn't escape punishment. Often times when the meteor hitbox and the landing hitbox hit it is harder to combo. You can DI the landing hitbox forward significantly, the only bonus is added damage. Down air is a strongly unsafe combo starter and is merely an extender for pseudo not guaranteed pillars. If you meteor someone and they tech in a direction there's nothing you can do about it, it isn't nearly as comparable to something like Ness' dair where you hit them into the ground then react to the tech and dair them again. GnW's dair and movement doesn't facilitate this kind of combo starting, Dair is really good for damage, but honestly I think it would often times be better to continue to keep the opponent above you in disadvantaged positioning where you continually poke them with safe uairs. Dair does have use when above platforms, however, because the platform limits their tech options in a way that allows GnW to actually follow up on them.

calling bullshit. I'm not sure of the angle but it's either a spike or meteor. Unless it has 20+ frames of l-canceled lag, it's a good combo starter.

 

[jtm94]

calling bullshit. I'm not sure of the angle but it's either a spike or meteor. Unless it has 20+ frames of l-canceled lag, it's a good combo starter.

You got me. I was trying to get at that is isn't something you should ever use in neutral, but it doesn't combo into nair nearly as well as Falcon's dair combos into knee. I often times find people jumping out of high % dair > nair. As a punish the move is magnificent and at low to mid % or against faster falling/heavier characters yes it can combo into nair for the KO.


EDIT:
Excuse me I didn't know this and this explains why the landing hitbox makes it so I cannot combo after the dair meteor. It hits AERIAL opponents at the sakurai angle. Often enough I land the meteor and get the landing hitbox which makes me drop the combo. GnW's dair meteor is only active for a single frame. Most characters can land as they hit their opponent's but with GnW you have to space the dair above them as not to accidentally ruin the combo by hitting the 6% landing hitbox that sends at the sakurai angle. This effectively gives him less time to hit them after he meteored a grounded opponent. His meteor is active on frame 12 while Falcon's is active from frame 16 to 21. GnW has 10 frames of landing lag while falcon has 12. Falcon's also has 40 BKB instead of 20 with the same KBG and also does 1% more. His KO move also kills earlier and is -4 on shield instead of -5. GnW's dair is not a bad move, but by no means is it the better of the dairs in the game nor overpowered in any way. I'm interested in testing frame by frame GnW's dair vs CC to see if he can grab while they are in flinch stun, I don't think he can, but it would deal 21% damage which isn't bad.

Yes the landing hitbox against grounded opponents is a spike that does 6% and hits at an angle of 270.

 

[DrinkingFood]

You got me. I was trying to get at that is isn't something you should ever use in neutral, but it doesn't combo into nair nearly as well as Falcon's dair combos into knee. I often times find people jumping out of high % dair > nair. As a punish the move is magnificent and at low to mid % or against faster falling/heavier characters yes it can combo into nair for the KO.


EDIT:
Excuse me I didn't know this and this explains why the landing hitbox makes it so I cannot combo after the dair meteor. It hits AERIAL opponents at the sakurai angle. Often enough I land the meteor and get the landing hitbox which makes me drop the combo. GnW's dair meteor is only active for a single frame. Most characters can land as they hit their opponent's but with GnW you have to space the dair above them as not to accidentally ruin the combo by hitting the 6% landing hitbox that sends at the sakurai angle. This effectively gives him less time to hit them after he meteored a grounded opponent. His meteor is active on frame 12 while Falcon's is active from frame 16 to 21. GnW has 10 frames of landing lag while falcon has 12. Falcon's also has 40 BKB instead of 20 with the same KBG and also does 1% more. His KO move also kills earlier and is -4 on shield instead of -5. GnW's dair is not a bad move, but by no means is it the better of the dairs in the game nor overpowered in any way. I'm interested in testing frame by frame GnW's dair vs CC to see if he can grab while they are in flinch stun, I don't think he can, but it would deal 21% damage which isn't bad.

Yes the landing hitbox against grounded opponents is a spike that does 6% and hits at an angle of 270.

why would you need to combo into nair when you can combo into fair
it's not going to kill outright but it's going to put them offstage at obscenely low percents... and you're GnW

also when dair is a large lingering disjoint below you with a landing hitbox, it doesn't matter what your arbitrary definition "the better of the dairs in the game" because it's one of the best defensive tools in the game for avoiding staggered vertical juggles on a character who uses a frame 3 combo breaker to avoid almost all other juggles at the "cost" of putting him higher up. Hardly a cost, with that dair