Jonyc128
Smash Journeyman
I've actually seen GnW's combo the landing hitbox into charged Upsmash
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
I don't think hes great but hes better than a sizable chunk of the cast.
jtm94
Smash Lord
What is obscenely low? You can DI it pretty far up and then you're just above him, but you'll just bring up how GnW has the best juggling tools in the game and the best ability to keep you there with the best projectile in the game that is lagless that can combo into the strongest free KO in the game hammer.
And it doesn't matter what your arbitrary definition of " one the best defensive tools in the game" is because it isn't safe on shield nor does he have the mobility/fall speed to crack through a reactive player and I wouldn't call frame 12 a safe combo breaker. Man I can't take you people serious anymore these arguments are getting more inflated by the day. I could make these exact statements about how you can't juggle ZSS because she has 2 jumps and a divekick or how Sonic drops a projectile on anyone trying to chase him while he also has a divekick. You are literately saying that GnW is not disadvantaged while he is above anyone because if the dair doesn't get him down at first, it will the second time.
Also yes landing hit can go into upsmash against certain characters
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
"obsenely low" is just way lower than most characters can. It's not any particular percent number because that kind of thing varies wildly on stage position and character stats. GnW's fair is just a strong fair lol.
Anyway, about dair. The thing is, GnW's dair doesn't need to be safe on shield to be ridiculously defensive. It just needs to force shield or force respect. Much like luigi's nair; if you force them to back off and bait something out, you now have the option to do nothing; if they pick the wrong option of do nothing vs your do nothing, or attempt to continue punish against your punishment breaker, you mostly get away losing very little. You took me completely out of context as I never said it was a combo breaker by itself. I said the up-b was a combo breaker. I said the dair was a godlike tool for stopping vertical juggles, because it is- GnW sent up into the air, comes down with lingering key hitbox. A huge portion of the cast can't outreach it. Even if they trade, they have been knocked at an angle where they aren't going to continue the punishment, and GnW escaped what is a terrible situation for most characters taking only an extra bit of %. But a lot of time the trade won't even happen. Additionally, GnW has an up-b+DJ mix-up for escaping juggles where, if successfully baited out, key still helps protect him dramatically on the way down. If it weren't for key as it is, GnW's anti-punishment ability would be drastically worse. Reasonable, in fact.
EDIT: I'm also not saying there's anything unreasonable about GnW's place as far as viability is concerned nor do I think he should just lose all these things and that be the end of it. I just think it's a valid criticism for characters to be unfun and excessively draining to play against. I know some characters aren't ever going to see change as far as this goes, like Luigi (bcuz maylay kek), but the more characters that are fun for both players, the better.
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jtm94
Smash Lord
I completely understand how the concept of being able to UpB away while retaining DJ as well as dair is incredibly good, but I don't think it's too much.
ICs, Zelda, Link, TL, Pit, MK, DDD, Marth, Roy, ROB and Sonic can beat his dair and it will beat a lot of things, but Link's dair is incredibly similar and while not being able to UpB out to escape, and DJ to bait, his dair is incredibly punishable even if he uses it in a situation where it can autocancel. I don't understand how no one can empathize to counterplay or how no one can see how just tossing moves out is unsafe. IASA is frame 40ish and that is him being committed to this, if he lands before that yes there will be a 1 frame landing hitbox that could convert into a combo, but if that doesn't hit he's in another 10 frames of lag. I get where you are coming from because characters should be bad above other characters, but as GnW I don't feel one bit safer being airborne than I do as Sheik or Zelda. The interaction is kind of like Zelda kick just slower and instead of horizontal it's vertical. You don't want to threaten him out of stun in case the move hits you and you lose all positioning, but unlike kick his options to the side aren't necessarily god like to make him uncontestable from the side. You can pressure him from the diagonal and he can't do much about it. This is all coupled with his bad combo weight where he has a hard time finding an 8 frame gap in a combo to get out and his light weight where he dies early. If the character has no UpB to try and get out of sloppy combos, no way of using DJ above opponents where I currently think he struggles to get down, and no dair to even try to hit someone then he only has air dodge and b reverse bacon to get down. I don't think his archetype of being combo'd hard and dying early balances with having 0 options when above the opponent. This doesn't even factor into how it impacts his combo game with the loss of DJ out of it.
Most of his bad MUs are against characters than can juggle him because he has no way to get to the ground. If he can't get down against any character I can't imagine how that would affect his MUs.
ICs, Zelda, Link, TL, Pit, MK, DDD, Marth, Roy, ROB and Sonic can beat his dair and it will beat a lot of things, but Link's dair is incredibly similar and while not being able to UpB out to escape, and DJ to bait, his dair is incredibly punishable even if he uses it in a situation where it can autocancel. I don't understand how no one can empathize to counterplay or how no one can see how just tossing moves out is unsafe. IASA is frame 40ish and that is him being committed to this, if he lands before that yes there will be a 1 frame landing hitbox that could convert into a combo, but if that doesn't hit he's in another 10 frames of lag. I get where you are coming from because characters should be bad above other characters, but as GnW I don't feel one bit safer being airborne than I do as Sheik or Zelda. The interaction is kind of like Zelda kick just slower and instead of horizontal it's vertical. You don't want to threaten him out of stun in case the move hits you and you lose all positioning, but unlike kick his options to the side aren't necessarily god like to make him uncontestable from the side. You can pressure him from the diagonal and he can't do much about it. This is all coupled with his bad combo weight where he has a hard time finding an 8 frame gap in a combo to get out and his light weight where he dies early. If the character has no UpB to try and get out of sloppy combos, no way of using DJ above opponents where I currently think he struggles to get down, and no dair to even try to hit someone then he only has air dodge and b reverse bacon to get down. I don't think his archetype of being combo'd hard and dying early balances with having 0 options when above the opponent. This doesn't even factor into how it impacts his combo game with the loss of DJ out of it.
Most of his bad MUs are against characters than can juggle him because he has no way to get to the ground. If he can't get down against any character I can't imagine how that would affect his MUs.
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Link's dair has a worse hitbox, more lag and no landing hitbox. Also pretty much zero combo potential and I'm kinda sure it comes out slower as well. It's not incredibly similar...
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DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
Falco's dair is similar guys. It hits below him and lingers! /s
Also I don't see this conversation going anywhere. You're just really biased and thus kind of ignoring that, where some characters have tools that can in certain circumstances of correct guess on the drifting (GnW drifting forward or back, and fast fall vs not fast fall, requires different jump+drift commitment from those characters in order to raw beat the dair instead of trade; not all of them have drift power to compensate once the have committed early enough to beat a good dair timing from GnW) most characters can't even remotely restrict this list. They just lose that situation like 90% for being there becaue they got outplayed in the first place, eat a reasonable amount of damage, and have to fight against losing odds to prevent the stock from being converted or from taking huge damage.
Honestly if GnW's dair just didn't have the lingering hitbox (and instead had slightly improved meteor hitbox duration) with an animation to indicate this, it'd be extremely sensible.
Also I don't see this conversation going anywhere. You're just really biased and thus kind of ignoring that, where some characters have tools that can in certain circumstances of correct guess on the drifting (GnW drifting forward or back, and fast fall vs not fast fall, requires different jump+drift commitment from those characters in order to raw beat the dair instead of trade; not all of them have drift power to compensate once the have committed early enough to beat a good dair timing from GnW) most characters can't even remotely restrict this list. They just lose that situation like 90% for being there becaue they got outplayed in the first place, eat a reasonable amount of damage, and have to fight against losing odds to prevent the stock from being converted or from taking huge damage.
Honestly if GnW's dair just didn't have the lingering hitbox (and instead had slightly improved meteor hitbox duration) with an animation to indicate this, it'd be extremely sensible.
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Honestly, if G&W couldn't jump out of up-b, I think everything would be less frustrating to deal with.
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You up+b to escape a combo/pressure situation: "Oh, it hit at 130%? Okay, let me just double jump nair/fair for the kill while I'm at it."
You hit the opponent too high for a regular double jump follow up: "Okay, let me just up+b into them then double jump aerial."
It's not intuitive at all.
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You up+b to escape a combo/pressure situation: "Oh, it hit at 130%? Okay, let me just double jump nair/fair for the kill while I'm at it."
You hit the opponent too high for a regular double jump follow up: "Okay, let me just up+b into them then double jump aerial."
It's not intuitive at all.
frankxthexbunny
Smash Apprentice
Gonna have to agree with Drinkingfood at that last part. It would be a fine change. I dont think Game and watch needs a lot of balance changes because honestly its fine for PM to have a character that does things a little differently, I think most of the changes i'd suggest are just to limit the times his opponent dies to something that they cannot anticipate visually (that is to say, animations that dont match with hitboxes). I'm actually pretty fine with his downtilt as it is though. I would almost definitely make his Up B in the air eat his jump however.
Player -0
Smash Hero
@
jtm94
I recognize that Dair isn't a neutral tool. As a punish tool (and other stuff) it's pretty amazing though. Most of the time you'll be meteoring them onto a platform and you can cover 3/4, if not all, of their options. The landing hitbox can cover no tech which eliminates that option too.
On a side note I've never had a problem with the landing hitbox cancelling the meteor.
jtm94
I recognize that Dair isn't a neutral tool. As a punish tool (and other stuff) it's pretty amazing though. Most of the time you'll be meteoring them onto a platform and you can cover 3/4, if not all, of their options. The landing hitbox can cover no tech which eliminates that option too. On a side note I've never had a problem with the landing hitbox cancelling the meteor.
TheGravyTrain
Smash Ace
Can you elaborate on how dair covers 3/4 platform tech options? Unless you are talking about them being on an edge, but like every move in the game can do that with the hitboxes even close to a good spot.@
On a side note I've never had a problem with the landing hitbox cancelling the meteor.
I may be mistaken, but my interpretation was that after you dair them on the platform, the position you're in allows you to cover numerous options, not necessarily with dair, but rather, after dair.
Mr.Pickle
Smash Lord
Currently I think that dk, d3, link, and jiggly are the worst characters in the game. They all have good qualities about them, and if you don't know the matchup they'll probably win, but pitted against someone who knows how they generally work, they won't see much success. Also their strengths are usually outshinned (quite literally sometimes, *cough cough* hexagons) by other characters that can do the same thing and with less weaknesses. Most characters in this game could easily be considered melee high tier, and they usually have some really ridiculous attributes or tools to help them, not to the extent as 3.02 but still ridiculous. So being just "good" isn't enough, you need attributes that mitigate your character's weaknesses a bit, and extreme tools to be considered viable in this metagame.
The_NZA
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2007
- Messages
- 1,979
DDD is not the worst character in 3.6. He was pretty good in 3.5--I know some believed him to be low mid, but I felt he was solidly mid tier with the possibility of having the jiggs effect (i.e. gets better as the metagame develops and the DD player learns the full range of recoveries he is facing). I know some D3 players feel 3.6 dair is better than 3.5 dair, while swallow was nerfed and usmash was buffed. In the end, I think D3 in 3.6 with all his changes is stronger than 3.5, which IMO puts the character solidly in middle tier/high middle. Link is also pretty good, but we just don't have that many data points for it so its often a pointless debate to have.
DK, Jiggs, Ness are three characters that need to be addressed imo. There are still buffs 15-20 characters in this game could afford.
DK, Jiggs, Ness are three characters that need to be addressed imo. There are still buffs 15-20 characters in this game could afford.
steelguttey
mei is bei
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2014
- Messages
- 1,674
pit is just there
i tried really hard to play him but hes still super boring and has no soul to him, hes kinda just a character with a cool projectile and a good dash dance, hes just boring
frankxthexbunny
Smash Apprentice
Link main here, It's a bit of a cliche for a player to defend their own character but this is the first time I've ever heard someone suggest link is the worst character in the game. Going to have to disagree, he's got a decent tool kit, a fine enough neutral, and good punishes. That and the fact that floaties get smacked by him is enough to put him at least at lower mid tier.
1Flow
Smash Journeyman
Warning Received
This is my PM tierlist speculation. Please reply to with characters that u disagree with. (NO FLAMING PLEASE JUST OPINIONS AND REASONS FOR THEM)
Ya Boy GP
Smash Apprentice
Definitely one of the best lists I've seen in a while.
frankxthexbunny
Smash Apprentice
The biggest problem is I disagree with almost everything I'm seeing. I don't even know where to begin really. Fox is definitely too high.
1Flow
Smash Journeyman
Warning Received
thank you very much
But the question we should all ask is... are we being biased?
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Kipcom
Smash Journeyman
Mr.Pickle
Smash Lord
I frequently play a good link player, and play him occasionally myself, so I know the character extremely well. His neutral is based entirely on throwing projectiles, putting out hitboxes, and going for very high risk options, like his grab or his up b reads. That would be fine if he didn't have as poor of frame data as he does, moves that flat out don't work, like usmash which is sdied fairly easily and can be cced to 999% by the entire roster if I remember correctly, and his projectiles are outclassed by most of the other projectile characters, the only thing saving him is how many he can put on the screen. Link is barely better than his melee incarnation, so you can certainly say he's mid, but everyone is buffed to the extent that they could be considered high tier by melee standards, so in a game filled with those characters, he's bad.
frankxthexbunny
Smash Apprentice
that's an interesting accusation to make without any context whatsoever. Let me try a few: How is a nerfed fox stronger than an unnerfed falco? how is ness stronger than lucas? How is wolf, who works exactly like a spacie, mid tier when the spacies are top? How Is Jiggs low mid rather than low? What makes Ganon as good as falcon? How is Roy literally 4 tiers below marth? What's wrong with samus when she's usually considered near top? How is toon link lower than Link? What's wrong with Diddy when he's winning tourneys? How is Mewtwo bad at all? How is zss bad at all? What makes Donkey Kong not near low tier when he is often considered the worst in the patch? How did lucario go from being considered top in 3.5 go to near bottom in 3.6 with some pretty nominal nerfs? How isn't buffed metaknight higher? Olimar is fine where he is.
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1Flow
Smash Journeyman
i'll take that as a compliment XD
Binary Clone
Easy Money since 1994
This is a joke. Right?
Right?
Ganon in A tier and Metaknight in F tier? Marth four tiers above Roy?
What possible explanation could there be?
1Flow
Smash Journeyman
I cannot possibly answer all of these but from my experience of going to tournaments and watching them, i believe i am correct. you are certainly entiltes to your own opinion tho.
again, i believe your opinion is one of bias but, you are certainley entitled to your own opinion.
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This was fine until everything after Fox.
1Flow
Smash Journeyman
@
Binary Clone
@
frankxthexbunny
notice how i main icies, game and watch, and peach, yet i don't make them top tiers. i am going by the actual potential i believe each character has
Binary Clone
@
frankxthexbunny
notice how i main icies, game and watch, and peach, yet i don't make them top tiers. i am going by the actual potential i believe each character has
Binary Clone
Easy Money since 1994
Ridiculous opinions with nothing backing them up? Check
Awful grammar and spelling? Check
Repeated double posting? Check
Yyyyyeeeeaah let's all just ignore this and move on.
1Flow
Smash Journeyman
please specify your beliefs of what should be changed (major issues, not minor)
Ya Boy GP
Smash Apprentice
Where's the evidence to show that your list doesn't have bias?
1Flow
Smash Journeyman
we are all entitled to our own opinions. when you don't get your way, you make this seem as though it was just put through a randomizer and displayed on this thread. It's my opinion so suck it up and move on.
frankxthexbunny
Smash Apprentice
I am a link main, so I know the character extremely well. There are plenty of characters with an on paper weak kit that turns out to be better than you'd expect, see Ike. Link has a strong chain grab that still works just fine and some decent punishes. His projectiles on their own aren't all that but together give him an insane amount of utility. He is able to adapt to matchups in ways that many cannot due to his diverse toolset. He has no problem killing if he can get a followup, which he has a few, his upsmash was just a damage dealer and was never for killing anyways, and he is better than his melee incarnation in virtually every way besides a thing with his nair, which is more than we can say about some characters. His projectiles chain into attacks and grabs, his zair is amazing, his recovery is flexible and not awful, especially with bomb recovery and AGT, and his edgeguarding has many options using his projectiles, nair, and bair. He's mid tier if you're a creative player with his tool set, he's low tier if you look at him the way you look at marth, that is to say, simple elegant combos and good frame data.
No.
Specify why you put everyone where they are.
The_NZA
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2007
- Messages
- 1,979
Where do you get off saying this? He has maybe the best jab->jab frametraps in the game, and some of the most damaging punishes in teh game.
Ya Boy GP
Smash Apprentice
Oh, of course! How could I be so foolish? My apologies.
1Flow
Smash Journeyman
your point is fair enough i guess but i still personally believe that he should stay where he is.