Tier List Speculation

[1Flow]

Oh, of course! How could I be so foolish? My apologies.

no problem

 

[Kipcom]

@Binary Clone @ frankxthexbunny notice how i main icies, game and watch, and peach, yet i don't make them top tiers. i am going by the actual potential i believe each character has

it's a common bias tactic to make your main seem worse than they actual are though (in this case I'd go with GnW being too low on your list).

Though Peach and ICs definitely aren't top tier, but I do think that you have Peach too high on yours.

 

[1Flow]

@ Boiko whateves guess i guy cant say his opinion without getting flamed

 

[eideeiit]

move on.

something good at least

 

[1Flow]

it's a common bias tactic to make your main seem worse than they actual are though (in this case I'd go with GnW being too low on your list).

Though Peach and ICs definitely aren't top tier, but I do think that you have Peach too high on yours.

this is the case sometimes but i am not here to prove anyone wrong, just top state my freaking opinion!!

 

[1Flow]

something good at least

?

 

[frankxthexbunny]

@ Boiko whateves guess i guy cant say his opinion without getting flamed

You're one of those people who hides behind an opinion wall in order to justify not researching or defending any of their terrible arguments I gather? Ok well let's be clear the burden of proof lies on you when you make this claim. I asked questions, now answer at least a few of them or else in the future don't throw darts at a board and call it your tier list.

 

[Kipcom]

@ Boiko whateves guess i guy cant say his opinion without getting flamed

This is a discussion thread. Everything that everyone says about how good or bad a specific character is is an opinion.

The difference between what everyone else is doing compared to what you're doing is that they are supporting their opinions with detail and/or video references. All you did was come into the thread to post your tier list, and then asked for people to give their opinions. Then when they do, you just write it off as bias or "their opinion" as some sort of way to dismiss what they think.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Where do you get off saying this? He has maybe the best jab->jab frametraps in the game, and some of the most damaging punishes in teh game.

His jab is one of the slowest in the game, if you get hit with it and don't sdi out then you deserve to get punished. Also what punishes are talking about? I can assure you that these so called punishes are not as effective as the other character's.

 

[1Flow]

You're one of those people who hides behind an opinion wall in order to justify not researching or defending any of their terrible arguments I gather? Ok well let's be clear the burden of proof lies on you when you make this claim. I asked questions, now answer at least a few of them or else in the future don't throw darts at a board and call it your tier list.

For the last goddamn time, i don't give a **** about what the hell you all think. i simply stated my opinion and wanted yours in return. didn't ask for a political discussion with it. chill out, at the end of the day, not one person will agree with another.

This is a discussion thread. Everything that everyone says about how good or bad a specific character is is an opinion.

The difference between what everyone else is doing compared to what you're doing is that they are supporting their opinions with detail and/or video references. All you did was come into the thread to post your tier list, and then asked for people to give their opinions. Then when they do, you just write it off as bias or "their opinion" as some sort of way to dismiss what they think.

I can see that from your point of view. I guess i was but, i didn't come here to be questioned about my opinions, just to see who agreed and why

 

[Boiko]

For the last goddamn time, i don't give a **** about what the hell you all think. i simply stated my opinion and wanted yours in return. didn't ask for a political discussion with it. chill out, at the end of the day, not one person will agree with another.

We all agree your list is bad.

 

[1Flow]

We all agree your list is bad.

Fair enough XD thats all i came looking for, just to see what people thought of it, not to be interrogated nor to interrogate others

 

[frankxthexbunny]

Ok, firstly technically tiers are not an opinion. With complete knowledge and perfect players tiers are objective. Unfortunately we have neither complete knowledge nor perfect players, so what the purpose of this thread is to speculate who wins the most matchups in a world with perfect players, or alternatively just a world with a more developed meta. This is theorizing, speculation even, but theories and opinions are not the same thing. They are backed up by data, and can with enough knowledge be proven. You have given theories, given no data, and tried to call them opinions, but you're just wrong. I mean sure you could be right, because we don't have complete frame data so we can't prove that you are wrong, but you are automatically wrong simply by not backing up your theories with information, and by not answering our questions about the data you failed to provide.

 

[steelguttey]

@ 1Flow you cant post a tierl ist and refuse to discuss it because "youre getting flamed" even tho you explicitly asked for people to discuss it.

 

[1Flow]

Ok, firstly technically tiers are not an opinion. With complete knowledge and perfect players tiers are objective. Unfortunately we have neither complete knowledge nor perfect players, so what the purpose of this thread is to speculate who wins the most matchups in a world with perfect players, or alternatively just a world with a more developed meta. This is theorizing, speculation even, but theories and opinions are not the same thing. They are backed up by data, and can with enough knowledge be proven. You have given theories, given no data, and tried to call them opinions, but you're just wrong. I mean sure you could be right, because we don't have infinite frame data so we can't prove that you are wrong, but you are automatically wrong simply by not backing up your theories with information, and by not answering our questions about the data you failed to provide.

...its just what i think. i dont need to back anything up. I am not trying to form a new religion, just giving out my ideas. thats all. i am done with this.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Why did you guys entertain him? lol.

 

[Ningildo]

You were asking good questions, but then:

Olimar is fine where he is.

In any case, @ 1Flow opinions and conclusions tend to be seperated by a really thin line. What it means is there must be a reason for Olimar to be bottom tier in your opinion. Maybe it's "bandwagoning like its 3.5" syndrome. Maybe you know a fatal flaw of the character that I, someone who plays the character extensively and constantly claims that Oli is good and just lacks representation, don't know about.

I don't know how you got to the conclusion, but I'd like to know. So please do share (for other characters too, probably).

Edit:

Why did you guys entertain him? lol.

At least that tier list got people talking. This one liner doesn't add anything to discuss, lol.

 

[Kipcom]

Anyway moving on...so how about that Lucas

Broken character, am i right?

 

[1Flow]

@ 1Flow you cant post a tierl ist and refuse to discuss it because "youre getting flamed" even tho you explicitly asked for people to discuss it.

I did ask them to discuss it, but at this point it has become accusations

 

[steelguttey]

You were asking good questions, but then:


In any case, @ 1Flow opinions and conclusions tend to be seperated by a really thin line. What it means is there must be a reason for Olimar to be bottom tier in your opinion. Maybe it's "bandwagoning like its 3.5" syndrome. Maybe you know a fatal flaw of the character that I, someone who plays the character extensively and constantly claims that Oli is good and just lacks representation, don't know about.

I don't know how you got to the conclusion, but I'd like to know. So please do share (for other characters too, probably).

ok usually i would agree with you that olimar doesnt deserve that placing but olimar's placing isnt the worst thing about this list by a landslide

I did ask them to discuss it, but at this point it has become accusations

you quite obviously came into this thread prepared to defend ur edgy opinions on the game with more hostility and it isnt really doing much for the sake of conversation if you refuse to talk about it and just say that people are "accusing" or "flaming" you

 

[Ya Boy GP]

So to change the topic.. Charizard! I think he's better than I originally thought. He has some strong mixups, combos, tech traps, and more options getting from the ledge than I thought. I think the character has a lot of room to grow, but he loses some matchups hard due to his inherent weakness of being a fatty. It's hard for me to decide where exactly he is on the tier list in this point of the meta.

 

[1Flow]

You were asking good questions, but then:


In any case, @ 1Flow opinions and conclusions tend to be seperated by a really thin line. What it means is there must be a reason for Olimar to be bottom tier in your opinion. Maybe it's "bandwagoning like its 3.5" syndrome. Maybe you know a fatal flaw of the character that I, someone who plays the character extensively and constantly claims that Oli is good and just lacks representation, don't know about.

I don't know how you got to the conclusion, but I'd like to know. So please do share (for other characters too, probably).

Being an olimar main in smash 4, i figured that i would try him out in Project M. I realized that the best asset that Oli has in sm4sh 4 is his insane ability to recover at extremely low heights (unlike in brawl). When trying him in PM, i was overjoyed to see that his recovery had been fixed! When playing friendly matches with people, i found that his recovery was easily misangled. This to me seems to be his only flaw, yet one that is so costly, i just couldn't main him. That is my reason for Oli beign that low. Now i know that people like @ steelguttey is amazing at him, but i still don't think that makes him any higher than i made him.

ok usually i would agree with you that olimar doesnt deserve that placing but olimar's placing isnt the worst thing about this list by a landslide

you quite obviously came into this thread prepared to defend ur edgy opinions on the game with more hostility and it isnt really doing much for the sake of conversation if you refuse to talk about it and just say that people are "accusing" or "flaming" you

I din't come prepared to defend myself since i though everyone here would have the decency to accept my opinions without interrogating me. thats all.

 

[eideeiit]

I find Lucas to be what Fox was said to have been. A glass cannon.

I love him.

I did ask them to discuss it, but at this point it has become accusations

You expected folks to discuss like this: "Lucas is too low" "No"
But instead people wanted to discuss like this: "Lucas is too low. Why so?" "Because..."
And you're not giving the people what the people want after asking them to discuss it. A misjudgment on your part. Hopefully you'll learn from your mistakes.

 

[The_NZA]

His jab is one of the slowest in the game, if you get hit with it and don't sdi out then you deserve to get punished. Also what punishes are talking about? I can assure you that these so called punishes are not as effective as the other character's.

Jab Jab grab, Jab Jab dsmash, Jab Jab upb, Jab jab dtilt are all a thing, and can't be SDI'd to escape. Most characters don't have the range to capitalize on jab jab if they are SDI'd away, but Link actually does on all of his followups. In addition, all of those followups besides upb are combo starters and aren't nearly that high risk. On top of that, his punish game is actually significantly better than most characters due to a. how hard he hits with everything, and b. how his tools like uair don't require him to have "true combos" to keep stacking up the damage. Sol for example is a Link player with a devastating combo game.

On top of that, Link has zair, 2nd hit of fair, and good crouch cancel options that are also good tools in neutral that sit outside the purview of his projectiles. He also has a decent moonwalk, and aerials that space efficiently and can lead into jab jab on shield (nair for example). I just think you are way underrating him when you say he's just Melee Link.

 

[steelguttey]

When playing friendly matches with people, i found that his recovery was easily misangled. This to me seems to be his only flaw

****ing sigged

 

[Ripple]

DDD is not the worst character in 3.6. He was pretty good in 3.5--I know some believed him to be low mid, but I felt he was solidly mid tier with the possibility of having the jiggs effect (i.e. gets better as the metagame develops and the DD player learns the full range of recoveries he is facing). I know some D3 players feel 3.6 dair is better than 3.5 dair, while swallow was nerfed and usmash was buffed. In the end, I think D3 in 3.6 with all his changes is stronger than 3.5, which IMO puts the character solidly in middle tier/high middle. Link is also pretty good, but we just don't have that many data points for it so its often a pointless debate to have.

DK, Jiggs, Ness are three characters that need to be addressed imo. There are still buffs 15-20 characters in this game could afford.

D3 is still one of the worst characters in the game. the dair rebuff from 3.6b didn't make him suddenly jump up tons of spots. you only see that he has solid MUs against high tiers but then you look at everything else and he gets bodied. he''s really only a CP character.

also, swallow wasn't nerfed and up-smash wasn't buffed.

 

[1Flow]

I find Lucas to be what Fox was said to have been. A glass cannon.

I love him.



You expected folks to discuss like this: "Lucas is too low" "No"
But instead people wanted to discuss like this: "Lucas is too low. Why so?" "Because..."
And you're not giving the people what the people want after asking them to discuss it. A misjudgment on your part. Hopefully you'll learn from your mistakes.

i guess i expected a simple conversation when i wasn't prepared to go into a detailed one.

****ing sigged

what?

 

[Ramz289]

i don't give a **** about what the hell you all think

i simply stated my opinion and wanted yours in return.

Okay.jpg

 

[Ya Boy GP]

i guess i expected a simple conversation when i wasn't prepared to go into a detailed one.

This thread didn't get to be 898 pages through simple conversation.

 

[1Flow]

This thread didn't get to be 898 pages through simple conversation.

I guess that true

 

[Ningildo]

You found his recovery hard to control (something easily remedied by practice), and that turned you off and that's why he's bottom.

Um, I'm not asking for some mind blowing reasoning that showcases your knowledge in the inner workings of the game, but...at least have something more objective to conclude from...maybe?

 

[1Flow]

You found his recovery hard to control (something easily remedied by practice), and that turned you off and that's why he's bottom.

Um, I'm not asking for some mind blowing reasoning that showcases your knowledge in the inner workings of the game, but...at least have something more objective to conclude from...maybe?

Nope. I just didn't feel he was good is all. Never said my list was perfect, just said that that was what i thought.

 

[Boiko]

also, swallow wasn't nerfed and up-smash wasn't buffed.

Idk much about up smash changes, but I believe he means from 3.5>3.6b where the swallow windbox WDSK was lowered.

 

[1Flow]

Alright im done with this convo. Sorry i even brought it up. Peace.

 

[frankxthexbunny]

So to change the topic.. Charizard! I think he's better than I originally thought. He has some strong mixups, combos, tech traps, and more options getting from the ledge than I thought. I think the character has a lot of room to grow, but he loses some matchups hard due to his inherent weakness of being a fatty. It's hard for me to decide where exactly he is on the tier list in this point of the meta.

I think i f you treat a charizard like a super fat marth he gets way stronger, that tail tipper can be brutal

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I am a link main, so I know the character extremely well. There are plenty of characters with an on paper weak kit that turns out to be better than you'd expect, see Ike. Link has a strong chain grab that still works just fine and some decent punishes. His projectiles on their own aren't all that but together give him an insane amount of utility. He is able to adapt to matchups in ways that many cannot due to his diverse toolset. He has no problem killing if he can get a followup, which he has a few, his upsmash was just a damage dealer and was never for killing anyways, and he is better than his melee incarnation in virtually every way besides a thing with his nair, which is more than we can say about some characters. His projectiles chain into attacks and grabs, his zair is amazing, his recovery is flexible and not awful, especially with bomb recovery and AGT, and his edgeguarding has many options using his projectiles, nair, and bair. He's mid tier if you're a creative player with his tool set, he's low tier if you look at him the way you look at marth, that is to say, simple elegant combos and good frame data.

He does have a chain grab, but his grab is also one of the slowest in the game, not to mention the only portion that grabs out of the air is a very small hand box located inside another grab bubble around his hand, and is only active for a few frames. The utility of his projectiles pales in the effectiveness of the other projectile characters, sure I can setup a boomerang and pull a bomb, the boomerang to limit your approach and the bomb to confirm off of or further keep you out, but tlink, rob, falco, diddy, mario just to name a few, can do nearly the same thing with half the effort, and with a better character behind the projectile. His kill options usually send at the perfect angle to survive at very high %s with good di, and have quite a bit of risk involving their usage. I also never said the usmash needed to kill, it just needs to work in the sense that it's equally fair to sdi out of it as it is to catch people in it. Bair literally does nothing but at best reset the edge guarding situation, and at worst puts link in a potentially dangerous spot because of his poor double jump.

He isn't that much better than his melee incarnation because of, lower damge boomerang, less combo potential from bombs, worse spot dodge, the obvious nair nerf, and less versatility from his recovery. Yes his recovery is less usfull in the sense that he lost the ability to have multiple bomb jumps, his tether is worse, but that's something that effects all tether characters, and his up b is relatively easy to beat because of the moments of non existing hitboxes in the animation. The big thing he has over his melee version is his movement, which is pretty decent but again, most characters have good movement in this game, so this quality is out classed.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

DDD is not the worst character in 3.6. He was pretty good in 3.5--I know some believed him to be low mid, but I felt he was solidly mid tier with the possibility of having the jiggs effect (i.e. gets better as the metagame develops and the DD player learns the full range of recoveries he is facing). I know some D3 players feel 3.6 dair is better than 3.5 dair, while swallow was nerfed and usmash was buffed. In the end, I think D3 in 3.6 with all his changes is stronger than 3.5, which IMO puts the character solidly in middle tier/high middle. Link is also pretty good, but we just don't have that many data points for it so its often a pointless debate to have.

DK, Jiggs, Ness are three characters that need to be addressed imo. There are still buffs 15-20 characters in this game could afford.

Right but no matter what there will be a tier gap. What i think should happen is eventually there should only be 3 tiers (a,b,c) meaning that characters will need buffs and nerfs to put everyone on a decent playing field. But it CANT be the whole "get everyone on foxes level" because eventually its gonna turn into melee sd remix or brawl minus.

 

[Kipcom]

Or you know, Project M 3.02

 

[Ningildo]

Maybe if Charizard had a useful neutral B he'd be better?

Why do characters have unusable specials again?

Something I'd like to know from the PMDT is what each character is supposed to be, design wise, so that nerfs and buffs can be made with that design in mind. For example, when giving a character a new tool (think Ganon Float or something), is this tool something that helps the character AND fits into its design? Or does it just help the character with no regard for its design? If it does fit the former, does it have degenerate qualities that need to be toned down (usually found out post patch release e.g. 3.02) at one point?

I'd like to see some reasoning and what each character is supposed to be design wise from the PMDT. Maybe not the best place to bring it up, but it's better then the 9001 one liners that are usually just a snide remark or whatever, imo.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

By the way, i only saw 1 tier list so far, but are we sure bowser is still only D tier?