Tier List Speculation

[Fish&Herbs19]

I would say how a neutral stacks up against other characters' neutral, along with how well their neutral leads into their punish is most important for determining matchups. Then how good of a mu spread is where they should be placed on a tier list. How punish games stack up in a mu (and thus affecting placement in a tier list) is important, but is a secondary concern compared to how easy it is to get those openings.

Charizard- I don't see down throw as that good of an option. It is a really tight timing to punish tech in place with a grab (frame perfect), so I think he is better off using it occasionally rather than a mainstay of his punish game. Charizard dair does 16 percent and is great for combos, so if you can do a tech chase read, thats a good place to start.

Oh, and both Meta Knight and Pit can do reaction tech chases on characters that are forced to tech. Pit can cg certain characters, I'm told midweights and mid fallers. He can also regrab light floaties if they di away, but they can escape if they di in.

Do you really have to be frame perfect in order to regrab tech in place with Charizard? I'm pretty sure that's not the case. Mind sharing some sort of gif that demonstrates this?

Also thanks for the info on Metaknight and Pit.

 

[InfinityCollision]

everyone is allowed to make an opinion and if they don't want to support it with fact, then "that's how I feel" is support enough

No it's not. This is a discussion thread, if someone isn't willing to discuss and defend their points then they should refrain from posting them to begin with. Coming in and ****ting up the thread with "this is my opinion NO HATE PLS" does nothing but waste time/bandwidth and maybe kill a few brain cells.

Link is Swiss cheese: as full of holes as he is substance.

Also tasty combo food.

 

[Tomaster]

Flow definitely came into a thread geared for discussion, shared his/her questionable opinion and refused to elaborate, defend, argue for, really anything. I would call that doing something wrong. Again, why post in a discussion thread and refuse to discuss, all the while making people angry by hiding behind "opinion walls" and getting unnecessarily defensive. Flow just had strange misconception with how this thread operates and refused to change that in the way he/she decided to act.

Solution: hate and cyberbullying, right? It's easy to do it online and when you have other people backing you up. And no, there's nothing wrong with wanting to post a list on this thread and not justifying it, you don't have to agree with it, that's your business, but have the decency to be respectful at least. I notice how most of the people who post on this thread are veterans to it. Everyone was else was driven out by the hate, or is afraid to post because they know they'll just get cyberbullied. It's like some kind of gang here. This forum belongs to everyone, and people can post their opinions if they want to, for whatever reason they want to, and they don't need to fear being flamed because people disagree with them. If they don't want to back up their opinions then that's their business. Everyone reading this is going to have the mindset "ok, now how do i argue with that?" But maybe you all should think about what I write with an impartial mind. What is going on in this thread is wrong, and im not going to take it anymore.

 

[Life]

Do you really have to be frame perfect in order to regrab tech in place with Charizard? I'm pretty sure that's not the case. Mind sharing some sort of gif that demonstrates this?

Also thanks for the info on Metaknight and Pit.

No gif, but Charizard dthrow is only +7 against neutral tech, so it's one frame plus the startup of their fastest escape option (so usually two frames since that'd be buffered spotdodge).

 

[didds]

You can get a feel for a character without looking at paper facts. People can form opinions here based on their experience, because what you see on paper isn't always what you get in reality. As for reasons for posting, that's the poster's business, if it makes them feel good to post a tier list then why would you feel the need to rudely shut them down? Anything on this thread posted by a less known player that goes against the general consensus gets flamed and hated on. But when a known player does it he/she gets praised for it and if someone tries to disagree with their opinion they get flamed out as well.

That being said, you owe 1Flow an apology for this:



Im not saying it's not ok to think these things, but you can at least do it respectfully.

There are times when less known players make lists and then say really logical things to support the opinions which then leads to a great discussion. Unfortunately, if you're unknown you need to provide words showing why u should be listened to.

Top players have already earned a status where they get respect without having to explain every little thing the same way a doctor doesn't need to explain every little thing to a non doctor, it's taken for granted that doc knows his shiz.

And everyone is entitled to an opinion but nobody is entitled to respect if that opinion is silly. A lot of people don't get that.

This isn't to say I personally agree with how harsh some people can be, but Internet blah blah yea.

Pika is balanced good character tier btw, pretty good standard imo

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

No gif, but Charizard dthrow is only +7 against neutral tech, so it's one frame plus the startup of their fastest escape option (so usually two frames since that'd be buffered spotdodge).

I stand corrected. Thank you. I wonder why I have an easier time reacting to techs with Charizard than I do with Falcon. Smash is weird -_-

 

[didds]

I stand corrected. Thank you. I wonder why I have an easier time reacting to techs with Charizard than I do with Falcon. Smash is weird -_-

Could be character familiarity, just more control both consciously and subconsciously with zard.
Psychology is weird -_-

 

[Tomaster]

There are times when less known players make lists and then say really logical things to support the opinions which then leads to a great discussion. Unfortunately, if you're unknown you need to provide words showing why u should be listened to.

Top players have already earned a status where they get respect without having to explain every little thing the same way a doctor doesn't need to explain every little thing to a non doctor, it's taken for granted that doc knows his shiz.

And everyone is entitled to an opinion but nobody is entitled to respect if that opinion is silly. A lot of people don't get that.

This isn't to say I personally agree with how harsh some people can be, but Internet blah blah yea.

I believe everyone is entitled to respect unless their opinion hurts others. And yes, people on the Internet are overly harsh and people who aren't ready for it can get hurt. Players either need to change their behaviors here or have a warning come with the thread so people know what they're getting themselves into by posting.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Solution: hate and cyberbullying, right? It's easy to do it online and when you have other people backing you up. And no, there's nothing wrong with wanting to post a list on this thread and not justifying it, you don't have to agree with it, that's your business, but have the decency to be respectful at least. I notice how most of the people who post on this thread are veterans to it. Everyone was else was driven out by the hate, or is afraid to post because they know they'll just get cyberbullied. It's like some kind of gang here. This forum belongs to everyone, and people can post their opinions if they want to, for whatever reason they want to, and they don't need to fear being flamed because people disagree with them. If they don't want to back up their opinions then that's their business. Everyone reading this is going to have the mindset "ok, now how do i argue with that?" But maybe you all should think about what I write with an impartial mind. What is going on in this thread is wrong, and im not going to take it anymore.

Honestly, at least in my case, I would have done the same thing in real life. It has nothing to do with in the computer. I argue with people all the time and when they say things they refuse to back up, I call them out on it. A lot of people responded really rudely and I personally wouldn't respond that why, but I understand why they did. I try to be respectful when I post and in person, but a lot of people aren't and don't feel you need to. At the end of the day you have to deal with it. If it gets out of hand, stick up for them but it didn't get out of hand here. He just played the victim card, double posted like crazy, and left.

As for not backing up opinions, I disagree. The purpose of this forum and this thread is discussion, so things that don't lead to discussion or hamper it should be discouraged. Posting outlandish opinions and refusing to back it up, as you can see, didn't lead to discussion. It lead to a bunch of talk about things not related to tier list speculating like the constant victim card and the constant "thats how I feel" posts that are clearly seen. Again, people could have been more polite but the end result still would have been a distraction from real discussion. I don't see this going anywhere and I would like to get back to tier list speculating seeing as some were posted. If you don't have anything else to say I think I'm done.

(Each list is in no particular order)
S:
These characters I feel can take nationals with little to no help from a secondary character

A:
Close to S tier, but have to put in more work for same results at nationals. Also Pika is super good but needs more representation imo. Also I don't think Falco is that great. Opponents SDIing his combos affect him more than others due to slow horizontal speed, and his recovery is like Fox's, but much worse and much easier to edgeguard.

B:
Solid mid-tiers. Yeah, I put Roy this low because he honestly has so much trouble killing. Plus with the removal of the float and the worse ledgedash, his recovery is soooo much worse.

C:
Counterpick characters.

D:
Slightly less useful counterpick characters.

I wish I could have more experience so I could make a better list, but everyone at my local scene is either terrible at Project M or is a Melee/Smash 4 player that ****s on the game every time it's mentioned.

So I take it this is a future potential list rather than a current meta list?

Like others have pointed out, I find it curious that you put roy low for struggling to kill, but Marth in s tier. Care to elaborate as most people think roy is better. Also, what about Link makes him better than those in the tier below? I personally put him in bottom ten. Also, what makes Zard better than Ganondorf? I tend to reverse those.

 

[didds]

Some people may argue that ignorance can harm others indirectly.

And on an intellectually driven forum, no, people aren't automatically entitled to respect.

Common decency yes, which prolly could've been more tactfully provided, but not a free pass on respect. Respect is earned when it comes to the Internet. in a place where we re faceless, it's our ideas that are valued not our existence.

The exceptions obviously being top players who actually do have faces, and even they get questioned if they're saying some controversial stuff.

Then again, I may just be arguing semantics.

Hey guys did I mention I think pika is solid. Good judge of player fundamentals too, he doesn't have too many freely rewarding strats. I like a character who has to work a little.

 

[Ningildo]

I believe everyone is entitled to respect unless their opinion hurts others. And yes, people on the Internet are overly harsh and people who aren't ready for it can get hurt. Players either need to change their behaviors here or have a warning come with the thread so people know what they're getting themselves into by posting.

Yeah, I agree.

You might be subjected to criticism and, if you think you're right, be forced to defend your opinion on a forum.

Again

Criticism and demanding reasoning behind (in this case) tier placings aren't personal attacks, it's what happens during discussion.

 

[Soft Serve]

I believe everyone is entitled to respect unless their opinion hurts others. And yes, people on the Internet are overly harsh and people who aren't ready for it can get hurt. Players either need to change their behaviors here or have a warning come with the thread so people know what they're getting themselves into by posting.

I disagree. I'm not going to try to get up in someone's face about a disagreement where both sides presented their thought processes clearly. But if someone says something dumb like claiming mk is bottom tier, and their only justification is that it's their opinion and people should respect it, there's no way they won't get questioned/poked at. It's just not how discussion works. You can't go around claiming the government is lizard people without proof, and get mad when people call you crazy or ask for evidence.

I'm also kinda salty that his troll list is getting more discussion than the rest. There were multiple legit lists with justifications recently that would spark discussion, but they got kinda pushed aside.


What are people's current thoughts about rob? @DrinkingFood @Lunchables . He still feels pretty good but he's such an easy combo weight now. As diddy, almost all of both my shiek and ganon combo weight flow chart options work on him.

 

[Deleted member]

What is going on in this thread is wrong, and im not going to take it anymore.

then dont. hope you enjoyed the internet and dont let the door hit your ass. the idea that people have to respect your baseless opinion isnt about respect, or even realistic. and its certainly not "cyberbullying" whatever that even means. if you want to come off that soapbox and try to put some weight to your viewpoints like the rest of us, we'll still be here.

---

the short version as to why zard is better than dorf is that dorf autoloses a ton of matchups simply for being slow, a pretty damning attribute generally speaking.

 

[Binary Clone]

Players either need to change their behaviors here or have a warning come with the thread so people know what they're getting themselves into by posting.

Really?

Like, "Welcome to the internet, people say mean things sometimes"?

I hate to break it to you, but that's really just how life works. If you say something that someone thinks is dumb, a substantial portion of the population will in fact call you out on it. I understand that this is the generation of babying everyone until they're 25, but really. It is not the worst thing to be called out on something in a snarky tone.

The difference between top players and randoms posting lists is that top players, by virtue of their status, are much more likely to be informed about the state of the game and its meta than some random player. If a top player posts a list and there's dumb stuff on it, people still call them out on it. If you're a random and post a list, then you have more to prove. If you don't provide explicit reasoning, there is no reason for anyone to assume that your opinion is informed in any way.

Hey guys did I mention I think pika is solid. Good judge of player fundamentals too, he doesn't have too many freely rewarding strats. I like a character who has to work a little.

I think pika is good and fun, but I can't use him for the life of me. He also seems like one of those cases of having one or two specials that are a bit niche or not as useful as they could/should be. Correct me if I'm wrong, since I don't know the character well, but it doesn't seem like skull bash is ever particularly useful, except when recovering from very far away.

 

[Tomaster]

Honestly, at least in my case, I would have done the same thing in real life. It has nothing to do with in the computer. I argue with people all the time and when they say things they refuse to back up, I call them out on it. A lot of people responded really rudely and I personally wouldn't respond that why, but I understand why they did. I try to be respectful when I post and in person, but a lot of people aren't and don't feel you need to. At the end of the day you have to deal with it. If it gets out of hand, stick up for them but it didn't get out of hand here. He just played the victim card, double posted like crazy, and left.

As for not backing up opinions, I disagree. The purpose of this forum and this thread is discussion, so things that don't lead to discussion or hamper it should be discouraged. Posting outlandish opinions and refusing to back it up, as you can see, didn't lead to discussion. It lead to a bunch of talk about things not related to tier list speculating like the constant victim card and the constant "thats how I feel" posts that are clearly seen. Again, people could have been more polite but the end result still would have been a distraction from real discussion. I don't see this going anywhere and I would like to get back to tier list speculating seeing as some were posted. If you don't have anything else to say I think I'm done.

I think it did get out of hand, that's why I felt the need to post. Seeing someone post an inconsiderate comment saying "we all agree your list is bad" and getting a bunch of likes for it is reason enough to intervene imo. All those people owe 1Flow an apology. As for backing up opinions, I agree it's needed but I've seen what happens when people try to back up their opinions, and you nothing but arguments out of it. Again, unless you're a known player. It bothers me that the ones who post the most on this thread are the most disrespectful ones. (Not you, you seem pretty respectful)

then dont. hope you enjoyed the internet and dont let the door hit your ***. the idea that people have to respect your baseless opinion isnt about respect, or even realistic. and its certainly not "cyberbullying" whatever that even means. if you want to come off that soapbox and try to put some weight to your viewpoints like the rest of us, we'll still be here.

Easy for you to say as someone who gets praised no matter what you say because people know your tag...

 

[The_NZA]

Btw I'm not one to disrespect anyone's opinion at all, you guys are more than welcome to have your opinion about link that isn't mine, and it's perfectly reasonable to defend your way of your thinking, but I just can't agree with the sentiment that link is higher than bottom. If I don't get to all of your points I apologize, it takes forever for me to articulate my point because I go over it so many times in my head, and then I sorta lose track of it sometimes.

You're chill dude. We just disagree.

I think nair > jab jab is fairly safe with link. I think jab jab -> grab can be beaten with spotdodge, but thats why its a frame trap--because instead, it could be delayed spot dodge, finished jab combo, upb if you want a get off me -> edgeguard or kill, or dsmash which beats the spotdodge and is a combo starter. WHen link jab jabs you, he has so many things to follow it up with that its hard to escape all the options without doing a little guesswork.

As for 2nd hit of fair, if you short hop fair without the fast fall, the first hit will knock them away if they go in and the 2nd hit will net you the combo. You can mix and match between SHFFL spaced fairs and non shffl'd fairs to try and bait either the first hit or go for the 2nd hit. I think his neutrla game is way better than you are giving him credit for--i just literally think most of the link players are garbage because they learned how to 3.02 boomboom and they never learned anything else.

Hero of Time is the first competent all around Link players--literally the only one. More will show themselves and I have no doubt that will change the impressions of the character.

 

[frankxthexbunny]

The ability to win the neutral game is the most important part of any match up. It doesn't matter how amazing your punishes are if you're never going to win neutral.

I'd say it's more of ratio to punish and neutral. If one character win's neutral 70 percent of the time, but the other character punishes 3x harder, one can argue the matchup is balanced.

 

[Binary Clone]

I think it did get out of hand, that's why I felt the need to post. Seeing someone post an inconsiderate comment saying "we all agree your list is bad" and getting a bunch of likes for it is reason enough to intervene imo. All those people owe 1Flow an apology. As for backing up opinions, I agree it's needed but I've seen what happens when people try to back up their opinions, and you nothing but arguments out of it. Again, unless you're a known player. It bothers me that the ones who post the most on this thread are the most disrespectful ones. (Not you, you seem pretty respectful)

Easy for you to say as someone who gets praised no matter what you say because people know your tag...

Please don't double post. It's against the rules.

the short version as to why zard is better than dorf is that dorf autoloses a ton of matchups simply for being slow, a pretty damning attribute generally speaking.

Beyond that, is Ganon even that much smaller hurtbox-wise than Zard? Zard is obviously bigger, but as far as being combo'd goes, Ganon is pretty substantial, too. Does it make much of a difference in comboing the two of them?

 

[steelguttey]

Easy for you to say as someone who gets praised no matter what you say because people know your tag...

dont worry, everyone hates umbreon

 

[Deleted member]

Easy for you to say as someone who gets praised no matter what you say because people know your tag...

i get a lot of flak for being harsh- which is well earned in all honesty. but i promise you if you bring something of value to the table, people will respect you regardless of unimportant things like your history. anyway this has gone off topic long enough. back to lurking.

 

[didds]

I think pika is good and fun, but I can't use him for the life of me. He also seems like one of those cases of having one or two specials that are a bit niche or not as useful as they could/should be. Correct me if I'm wrong, since I don't know the character well, but it doesn't seem like skull bash is ever particularly useful, except when recovering from very far away.

The only near useless special was skull bash and you're right, recovery is its only use basically (aside from trolly edge guards and unreasonable team combos). But I think it's okay for characters to have niche recovery use for a special if the rest of their kit is fine.

He's already mobile with a burst speed option.
He has a decent projectile.
He has kill options.
Basically his mobility and general pressure tools are strong enough where he can afford to have a special specifically for recovery and one as a combo ender (thunder).

Pikas biggest weakness will always be that his top level tech is tough to do consistency and that winning neutral and getting the proper punish takes more precision than other character.

And he gets punished hard of course, which can happen more often since he requires such precision.

I'd put him a similar category as squirtle in those aspects

 

[frankxthexbunny]

Solution: hate and cyberbullying, right?.

Cyberbullying? Really? About 8/10 of the people were very clear that he had to back it up. The actual worst thing anyone said is that his tier list is universally disliked. If he had given substantial reasoning I'm sure we would have given substantial arguments (the ones who didn't already that is) but that's not how it went. It was his fault and his feelings are likely to be intact since he was heavily warned before the more negative phrases came out. Which once again weren't that bad at all.

 

[Tomaster]

i get a lot of flak for being harsh- which is well earned in all honesty. but i promise you if you bring something of value to the table, people will respect you regardless of unimportant things like your history. anyway this has gone off topic long enough. back to lurking.

This is my last post, so you guys can get back to tier list discussion. People need to respect other people regardless, that doesn't mean agreeing with them, but respecting them. Ive seen what happens when lesser known people try to back up their opinions, and it's no better than what happened with 1Flow. Anyway, I just hope people take away from this that they need to be nice when they comment, there are human beings behind the screens, not just avatars.

 

[1Flow]

All the people gettoing crazy about my opinion need to get a life. Boo hoo i insulted there favorite video game character. Life is tough. GRow up and stop playing videogames 24/7. Get a job. I have one. @ Tomaster is the only logical one. @ steelguttey you think its funny? Putting my saying as your signature? Grow up, get a life, and get a haircut

 

[didds]

This is my last post, so you guys can get back to tier list discussion. People need to respect other people regardless, that doesn't mean agreeing with them, but respecting them. Ive seen what happens when lesser known people try to back up their opinions, and it's no better than what happened with 1Flow. Anyway, I just hope people take away from this that they need to be nice when they comment, there are human beings behind the screens, not just avatars.

I can agree to general decency but only if 1Flow agrees with the importance of providing reasoning when questioned, or at least understands why an opinion is basically disregarded when he refuses to expand on his ideas.

I'm definitely all for not being trollish d bags too, but I may be a minority in that regard

Edit: on second thought, I may have spoke to soon. Most of us are on this forum because we re stuck at our jobs in the first place..

 

[frankxthexbunny]

uh oh.

h-how bout that roy... do you think he's as good as marth? better? g-guys?

 

[1Flow]

I can agree to general decency but only if 1Flow agrees with the importance of providing reasoning when questioned, or at least understands why an opinion is basically disregarded when he refuses to expand on his ideas.

I'm definitely all for not being trollish d bags too, but I may be a minority in that regard

Edit: on second thought, I may have spoke to soon. Most of us are on this forum because we re stuck at our jobs in the first place..

I didn't know that this thread was an essay that need to have textual evidence to support my claims. Everyone needs to grow up and get a life. Its a freaking tierlist, not the ten commandments. I didn't rewrite someone's bible. tierlists mean nothing. I use some of the worst characters in the game. I consider myself halfway decent.

 

[frankxthexbunny]

o-or sonic. he has a lot of options don't you think you're underestimating him? With developed meta I could see sonic being really polarizing with his matchups

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I think it did get out of hand, that's why I felt the need to post. Seeing someone post an inconsiderate comment saying "we all agree your list is bad" and getting a bunch of likes for it is reason enough to intervene imo. All those people owe 1Flow an apology. As for backing up opinions, I agree it's needed but I've seen what happens when people try to back up their opinions, and you nothing but arguments out of it. Again, unless you're a known player. It bothers me that the ones who post the most on this thread are the most disrespectful ones. (Not you, you seem pretty respectful)

Easy for you to say as someone who gets praised no matter what you say because people know your tag...

First part, disagree. If you can't handle a little snarky one liner, dont post or go toughen up a bit. Second point doesn't make sense to me. People explain their opinion and arguments happens. Sounds like a discussion to me! If people discredit that argument or explain why it pales in comparison to some other reason, guess what? You and everybody else who read it learned a little more. At that point you reply humbly saying something like "that makes sense, I will take that into consideration when thinking about the character". As a less experienced player who wanted to express your opinion, you get stuff to take away. You don't try and change their mind because you don't have a leg to stand on. I know this from experience. I said something about DDD back in 3.0, Ripple called me out and said I was wrong, I asked how so and he explained. I recognized he knew more than me and moved on. This isn't an equal opportunity issue where everyone's opinion is valued and right. Discussion is a way to see who can provide a better explanation for why things are a certain way. Because Flow approached discussion in such a terrible way, he got a bad result.

 

[didds]

I didn't know that this thread was an essay that need to have textual evidence to support my claims. Everyone needs to grow up and get a life. Its a freaking tierlist, not the ten commandments. I didn't rewrite someone's bible. tierlists mean nothing. I use some of the worst characters in the game. I consider myself halfway decent.

Nope just a place where people like to discuss ideas, why do you keep taking personal shots at people?

 

[frankxthexbunny]

WHAT ABOUT IKE HE STILL SEEMS REALLY GOOD

 

[1Flow]

Nope just a place where people like to discuss ideas, why do you keep taking personal shots at people?

You came in at a lae time. I was provoked first. I didn;t even want this problem. just wanted to see what people thought of my tier list without being questioned

 

[frankxthexbunny]

Donkey Kong is the best character in project m please discuss

 

[ZGE]

Can we seriously move on from this whole thing? We honestly don't care, don't be surprised when people disagree with you without any backup and to the other side, be nice when criticizing. It's really that simple and so much of this could have been avoided.

So uh, how do I CP my tier list on here? I have my opinions on 3.6 but don't know how to get the picture on here.

 

[Boiko]

I'd say it's more of ratio to punish and neutral. If one character win's neutral 70 percent of the time, but the other character punishes 3x harder, one can argue the matchup is balanced.

Maybe, it's hard to say.

It's also a matter of being consistent with your punishes. Say you're DK and you grab Fox, you can potentially convert that to death. But if you drop the combo, and the neutral resets, you need to win again to get another chance to punish.

It really works both ways, but I personally put a greater emphasis on neutral.

 

[InfinityCollision]

So uh, how do I CP my tier list on here? I have my opinions on 3.6 but don't know how to get the picture on here.

Screenshot, crop, upload, post.

Here's my question: why do PK Fire and PK Freeze actively punish you for landing before the projectile comes out?

 

[The Baron]

Donkey Kong is the best character in project m please discuss

Just grab popcorn. It'll all be over soon. Also sonic is good or at least fast. He's definitely in my top 15 but I nwouldnt know too much since i dont play good sonic's often.

 

[frankxthexbunny]

Just grab popcorn. It'll all be over soon. Also sonic is good or at least fast. He's definitely in my top 15 but I nwouldnt know too much since i dont play good sonic's often.

I tend to use sonic for the matchups that link is terrible at, so I find him to be pretty decent.

 

[Strong Badam]

Alright alright, we're done here.

@ 1Flow : Do not post unreasonable tier lists and then refuse to explain why you think that way. "It's my opinion" is not a discussion point; it is spam/trolling. This is not the place for posting your opinion with little else, we're here for in-depth discussion. Be prepared to defend your answer as that is how we as human beings learn and grow.

Others: Why u spam? You know I hate spam. Expect at least a few infractions after I go through the thread.

Thanks to those who actually tried to have meaningful conversation during that nonsense. You the real MVP.

 

[Boiko]

Screenshot, crop, upload, post.

Here's my question: why do PK Fire and PK Freeze actively punish you for landing before the projectile comes out?

Can you elaborate more on what you mean? Do you mean punish Ness/Lucas for landing before the projectile comes out?