Tier List Speculation

[Poilu]

Yeah, they buffed pummel on PM, it has some special effects depending on the character and some do 3% (While melee max is 2% if I remember correctly) but hell, you can land half as much as you did on melee because the grab release is so quick ...

 

[jtm94]

I'm really proud of the PMDT. They continue to ignore the baseless arguments against GnW. I just wish his moves looked right.

Bowser is still bad, but he has legitimate silly stuff now instead of armor that violated other fundamentals of FGs. I do have a fear of his new spike, but honestly good on him. Not sure why his dsmash needed to be that fast.... but I mean why not. Uair had it's KB compensated so it's still as strong as the weaker 3.6beta uair right? Ganon has damage output like that on all of his moves and they're usually faster/free out of dthrow. I guess Bowser has Koopa uthrow, but DI still exists.

One day Zelda will be good and not lame. I really wanted to remove all of her B moves for faster ground speed/normals, but she's still a gimmick in a can character with land cancelled Nayrus and Dins orbits. At least she's fun to outcamp.

 

[Manaconda]

... do you mean mashing? Pummeling is very awful in PM because mashing out is so quick

Yes, that's what I meant. Mashing feels wicked OP in this game. I know some people dislike hearing that 'Melee did it right', and I'm not saying Melee's arbitrary choice for how quickly you can escape a grab is the absolute best, but escaping after a single pummel at 80%+ is kind of dumb.

 

[Yambotico]

I always see people on here saying that mashing and sdi are crazy in pm but without explaining how to do it. What are the best ways to mash and sdi in pm? I've always done both of the the melee way.

 

[Poilu]

I think mashing is dumb anyway. There should be a fixed amount of lag depending on the % every time. I don't see why mashing faster would be rewarding.

 

[Rizner]

I think mashing is dumb anyway. There should be a fixed amount of lag depending on the % every time. I don't see why mashing faster would be rewarding.

To make an aspect which would otherwise be 1 sided become somewhat interactive.

 

[Juushichi]

Until you live in Ohio. Fumbles has it rough tbh - best player in the region is a peach lol.

I think Zelda also wins the matchup - I could see it being 6:4

Peach, some Zelda guy, Puff, TL, Link, Ivysaur, Diddy.

Fumbles still places tho.

 

[The_NZA]

legitimate complaints:
his throws all share the same animation
bucket braking
it isn't apparently obvious when some of his hitboxes have disappeared
he has RNG

everything else:
"he has 4 sexkicks"
"he is the only character in the game that can escape combos"
"he can punish me when i don't expect it"
"his upb is good"
"he can jump after his upb"
"he is a decent character"

Nice, i'm glad we ended the dispute of finding a neutral arbiter of logic and everything right. I'll add a couple others to the list.

1. His attack hitboxes do not match animations. See dtilt.

2. Bacon being able to combo into some of the strongest smash attacks in the game seems a little too stilted in its rewards for a projectile

3. Landing Hitboxes. If GnW uses either dair, uair, or bair out of a full jump or up in the air or off stage, it has totally different hitboxes than if he lands. If done normally, all three of these attacks have hitboxes for the duration of their animation. If he lands after he has jumped and started an aerial, even if the aerial hitbox is gone, as soon as he lands, a magic hitbox will appear for a frame or two covering his landing lag. It is hard to account for this hitbox, it is unexpected, it makes him pretty safe, it is non-intuitive and he's the only character in the entire game to have literal jank like this. Please add that to your list on your legitimate or sardonically dumb non-legitimate complaints list.

@Umbreon I made a pretty detailed post about it on this page if you are interested in reading it:

http://smashboards.com/threads/tier-list-speculation.331666/page-849

 

[steelguttey]

olimar's white flowered pummel does 6%

 

[TheGravyTrain]

NZA, you should calm down. Wtf is "literal jank" anyways. Oh, and he isn't the only character with landing hitboxes. Wolf Nair, ivy Nair, Lucas Nair, I think pit Nair? Yoshi dair used to have one as well.

 

[Rᴏb]

@ The_NZA I already mentioned 1 when I said it wasn't obvious when some of his hit boxes disappear. I'm not convinced on 2 due to how slow and easily avoidable bacon is, but that doesn't mean I think bacon is perfect either (when I said he has RNG, I was referencing judgment & bacon). I'll be sure to add "he is the only character that has landing hitboxes aka literal jank" to my everything else list the next time this discussion pops up.

 

[Frost | Odds]

(+5)
Still? This thread is still finding ways to complain about Fox, and liking those posts? I'm not even going to keep reading onward, I'm done.

That wasn't a complaint so much as the reality of the situation. Fox, when played extremely passively, has much more time to gain matchup information and thereby adapt, than do characters with less mobility and get-out-of-jail-free tools.

 

[InfinityCollision]

The delivery's a bit over-the-top, but @ The_NZA is correct in that G&W's landing hitboxes can potentially activate after the active frames of the move would have otherwise ended. He's wrong about it being unique though - Lucas' nair has the same property, as does ZSS' divekick (possibly a holdover from pre-3.5 frame data?). Wolf, Ivy, and Mewtwo's nairs do not exhibit this property, nor do Mario or Sonic's dairs. Pit's nair has no landing hitbox.

I'd actually argue that Lucas is the biggest offender in this respect, as there's a pretty substantial window (instant sh nair gets the landing hitbox) and it's also got a distinct "finisher" hitbox. While all three characters could potentially use some "adjustment" in this respect, G&W seems less likely to catch you off guard because those aerials still look like they're active. The intuitive response, if you're aware of the general properties of those moves, is still to avoid or shield the attack.

 

[The_NZA]

NZA, you should calm down. Wtf is "literal jank" anyways. Oh, and he isn't the only character with landing hitboxes. Wolf Nair, ivy Nair, Lucas Nair, I think pit Nair? Yoshi dair used to have one as well.

Dude, I really wasn't the one splitting up legitimate pages of arguments into "here is a list of the legit complaints and here is a list of whiny baby complaints". Anyone who deals with discussion in that manner deserves a LOT more attitude than that.

Also, I haven't gone into debug mode, but if you double jump and do ivy's nair so the animation/hitboxes all end, does one actually magically appear upon her landing? Because I haven't noticed that with ivy, wolf, or lucas. I called it literal jank because nothing like that exists anywhere else in the game and its about as unintuitive as you can imagine. That would be like if every time DK autocancelled nair, Yoshi's ground pound stars come out of his butt. Except instead of stars, its invisible stars. I think we can agree as a community that some things actually step over the brightline of "jank" and can be fairly articulated as such.

 

[Soft Serve]

Wolf's nair has a landing hitbox even if the move's hitboxes haven't come out too. Wolf can still fh dair falling nair on tall shields even though the nair hitboxes don't come out in time.


Landing hitboxes don't bother me, just the animations on moves and throws. For me it wouldn't even have to be animations, just flashes or something to indicate when the hitbox is gone (there's a move that does that already I think), and to indicate what direction you are being thrown

 

[InfinityCollision]

Wolf's nair has a landing hitbox even if the move's hitboxes haven't come out too. Wolf can still fh dair falling nair on tall shields even though the nair hitboxes don't come out in time.

Pretty sure this only happens if you land on frame 7, which is when the first hitbox would come out anyway. That's a bit different from what's happening in the examples above, ie landing hitboxes that come out after the attack would normally end.

 

[The_NZA]

@ The_NZA I already mentioned 1 when I said it wasn't obvious when some of his hit boxes disappear. I'm not convinced on 2 due to how slow and easily avoidable bacon is, but that doesn't mean I think bacon is perfect either (when I said he has RNG, I was referencing judgment & bacon). I'll be sure to add "he is the only character that has landing hitboxes aka literal jank" to my everything else list the next time this discussion pops up.

Worth noting and a minor detail. On 1, i wasn't referring to animations lasting longer than the hitboxes. I was referring to dtilt being a giant circular hitbox that hits higher than the actual gutter, instead of being composed of a series of circles to be more like a line.

 

[Rᴏb]

Worth noting and a minor detail. On 1, i wasn't referring to animations lasting longer than the hitboxes. I was referring to dtilt being a giant circular hitbox that hits higher than the actual gutter, instead of being composed of a series of circles to be more like a line.

OH I see. I actually agree with you there.

 

[Jonyc128]

Pretty sure Mario's dair has a landing hitbox on frame 1, but the active hitbox comes out frame 7

 

[InfinityCollision]

Pretty sure Mario's dair has a landing hitbox on frame 1, but the active hitbox comes out frame 7

Nope. Same as Wolf's, landing hitbox won't come out before frame 7.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Worth noting and a minor detail. On 1, i wasn't referring to animations lasting longer than the hitboxes. I was referring to dtilt being a giant circular hitbox that hits higher than the actual gutter, instead of being composed of a series of circles to be more like a line.

Oh, so similar to things like sheik Bair, fox Bair / Nair, falcon dair, jiggs Bair?

Where instead of the hit box being leg shaped, it's a bubble around it?

Yea, things like that are a bit painful to deal with.

 

[Jonyc128]

Nope. Same as Wolf's, landing hitbox won't come out before frame 7.

I guess Sarton needs to update the hitbox thread for Mario then

 

[Zefklop]

Oh, so similar to things like sheik Bair, fox Bair / Nair, falcon dair, jiggs Bair?

Where instead of the hit box being leg shaped, it's a bubble around it?

Yea, things like that are a bit painful to deal with.

Hitboxes have a thing called interpolation. Debug doesn't show it, but if you want go to a melee hitbox thread and few something like marth fair. You will see the hitboxes "drag". Basically, every frame, hitboxes that move hit in their respective bubbles, where the move hit the last frame, and every hit in between. If you use debug and turn on hitboxes, then again, it will show the previous frame's hitboxes as well so you can see where it hits.

I dont know if you can turn it off per move or if the game could be failing to properly interpolate, but that's the facts.

G&W's dtilt should be changed into a small hitbox going back and forth.

I'm not sure how well this hack would work for aerials though.

 

[Manaconda]

How many times has GnW been brought up?

 

[TheGravyTrain]

@ The_NZA

When I replied, I misunderstood the situation. I thought you were mad about landing hitboxes, but you seem to be mad specifically when they happen long after the aerial hitboxes leave. Did some investigating, seems Lucas nair has the same property, as InfinityCollision mentioned. The PMDT seems to have control over this though as Ivysaur nair and Wolf nair appear to have restraints on when the landing hitbox comes out. Then it just comes down to which specific moves violate this problem. I would argue its just bair. I can't think of an instance where uair violates this as it isn't a neutral tool. Dair could maybe use some trimming on this effect, but it isn't a neutral tool either so I think in order to preserve its combo nature it could have a little excessive delay still be allowed. The instance that comes to mind where dair is an issue is when he comes down with a dair after a juggle/up b escape and you shield. Didn't look into the frame data, but pretty sure every character can still punish this by not even letting him land. With bair, just trim it to only come out around 6-8 frames after hitboxes leave so sh bair is in tact. Maybe you disagree, but I think that's far enough on that issue.

@ Jonyc128
Can verify, mario dair ac's from 1-6, so the landing hitbox can't come out till frame 7.

@ Zefklop
Why was I quoted in this? Something with interpolation? I agree with Nza, just make it 2 or 3 so its vertical coverage goes down and its horizontal coverage matches the animation. Then have the manhole (or whatever it is) lay flat and unmoving/go away when the hitboxes do. Similar things for the rest of G&W.

Oh, and does anybody have a legitimate argument for GW's throws being the same/almost the same? I thought the PMDT was trying to tone down on di mixups (they did bring back Sheik throws though, so maybe that was a misjudgement on my part, as well as others).

 

[The_NZA]

@ The_NZA

When I replied, I misunderstood the situation. I thought you were mad about landing hitboxes, but you seem to be mad specifically when they happen long after the aerial hitboxes leave. Did some investigating, seems Lucas nair has the same property, as InfinityCollision mentioned. The PMDT seems to have control over this though as Ivysaur nair and Wolf nair appear to have restraints on when the landing hitbox comes out. Then it just comes down to which specific moves violate this problem. I would argue its just bair. I can't think of an instance where uair violates this as it isn't a neutral tool. Dair could maybe use some trimming on this effect, but it isn't a neutral tool either so I think in order to preserve its combo nature it could have a little excessive delay still be allowed. The instance that comes to mind where dair is an issue is when he comes down with a dair after a juggle/up b escape and you shield. Didn't look into the frame data, but pretty sure every character can still punish this by not even letting him land. With bair, just trim it to only come out around 6-8 frames after hitboxes leave so sh bair is in tact. Maybe you disagree, but I think that's far enough on that issue.

I have a really simple philosophy. I think aerial attacks should last as long as their animations and I think their duration should be consistent no matter how long you are airborne or when they land. Magic hitboxes should not be appearing once the attack is over. Regardless of it being bair, dair, or uair, I don't understand what it is trying to reward on a design level.

It makes a character safer on the basis of a surprise being surprising i.e. its good because its different and its different for the sake of being different. Not because it adds deeper interactions. Why not just decrease the end lag on the aerial instead if you are really committed to making that move safer?

I think its really dumb. If anyone so far hasn't grasped hwat we are talking about, take GnW, put on debug mode, jump off the right platform of battle field and do a bair. Then, from the ground, full jump and bair and time it so the duration of the attack is over before you land (but barely) and watch how an extra hitbox shows up.

 

[MEnKIRBZ]

How many times has GnW been brought up?

Take the amount of likes you have on your post, and then add 3,420,982

 

[.alizarin]

im alright with the landing hitboxes and whatnot, i just want it to be more obvious that there is a landing hitbox. i want things to be intuitive, and i shouldn't have to go to debug mode to figure out, say, when dtilt ends

like are you serious come on

edit: nza's idea for making gw's up b eat his double jump if he does it in the air but keeping the dj if initiated on the ground sounds like a good idea to me too, makes the move's option as an escape tool not as mindless if you're being juggled or something, and you can keep the conversions off of it if you get the initial launcher from the ground

 

[The_NZA]

im alright with the landing hitboxes and whatnot, i just want it to be more obvious that there is a landing hitbox. i want things to be intuitive, and i shouldn't have to go to debug mode to figure out, say, when dtilt ends

like are you serious come on

Oh God. Marty. It's a time loop. What have we done.

 

[InfinityCollision]

How many times has GnW been brought up?

Less than Fox, can't be that bad

By the way...

2) Something i never understood is why Mewtwo isnt' universally considered a top 10 character. On paper he has so many strengths. Hes got a command grab, float cancels, an insane recovery (i saw Frozen recover multiple times from the bottom corner of dreamland), a decent projectile that has the added ability of being able to turn you around in the air, a kill throw, and more. But then Falcon comes in and says "lol downthrow knee" and Mewtwo dies. So yeah, somehow it doesn't all come together and i am now at peace with everyone putting M2 at B tier ish.

Falcon being able to dthrow knee on mewtwo the way he combos everybody into knee isn't really a knock against MewTwo lol

Dthrow->knee isn't guaranteed on Mewtwo above ~70%. Down+slight away DI gives you enough time to fair around that percent (trades at 70 if you're both frame perfect), and around 80 or 90 you can start teleporting out as well. You'll probably get clipped if you try to jump out though. Dthrow->uair is true but obviously doesn't kill unless you DI the uair down and in past the ledge for whatever reason.

Stomp->knee on the other hand is completely real within a certain percent range and will ruin your day same as anyone else.

#Lateknowledgedrop

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I have a really simple philosophy. I think aerial attacks should last as long as their animations and I think their duration should be consistent no matter how long you are airborne or when they land. Magic hitboxes should not be appearing once the attack is over. Regardless of it being bair, dair, or uair, I don't understand what it is trying to reward on a design level.

It makes a character safer on the basis of a surprise being surprising i.e. its good because its different and its different for the sake of being different. Not because it adds deeper interactions. Why not just decrease the end lag on the aerial instead if you are really committed to making that move safer?

I think its really dumb. If anyone so far hasn't grasped hwat we are talking about, take GnW, put on debug mode, jump off the right platform of battle field and do a bair. Then, from the ground, full jump and bair and time it so the duration of the attack is over before you land (but barely) and watch how an extra hitbox shows up.

Could you do me a favor and define game design for me and go a little into its purpose in a competitively designed game like Project M. Specifically relating to "I don't understand what it is trying to reward on a design level". I find people hide behind game design and similar arguments. I personally hate the argument and get irrational when its mentioned, so rather than assuming what you mean I thought I'd ask. before I respond.

Also, @Strong Bad do you have any input on G&W considering you played him a decent amount during the tail end of 3.0 and some of 3.5.

 

[Deleted member]

Also, @Strong Bad do you have any input on G&W considering you played him a decent amount during the tail end of 3.0 and some of 3.5.

i think the obvious answer for this is to just make the tilt hitbox stay out until frame 25 to make it visually consistent.

i will literally never win a mash match again LOL

 

[Professor Pro]

Project Argue

Kreygasm

 

[Narpas_sword]

I've always thought of the 'Hit' part of GaW Dtilt to be the effort in his Flick upwards.
The rest is the manhole settling.

Yea, it doesnt solve the problem, and it still looks silly. but, it's an understandable animation. The problem is more trying to make something look good with his animation speed.

 

[Apollo Ali]

I don't mind Wolf or Ivy's landing hitboxes but GnWs landing dair landing hit box frickin combos and it also shield pokes me (I have to angle up and then down)

EDIT:

somehow this makes it seem more counterintuitive than ivy's or wolfs. im not coming down strongly on this particular issue, it's just the whole gnw package yknow

 

[.alizarin]

I've always thought of the 'Hit' part of GaW Dtilt to be the effort in his Flick upwards.
The rest is the manhole settling.

Yea, it doesnt solve the problem, and it still looks silly. but, it's an understandable animation. The problem is more trying to make something look good with his animation speed.

i can see the logic in this, but i disagree completely that it's an understandable animation, at least when playing the game, which is where interpreting something like this matters

the manhole cover "setting" is just so obnoxiously similar (i'm willing to bet that it's just the looped initial animation, but i'm not going to go out of my way to check) to the initial "flick" that it's impossible to interpret when playing such a fast paced and precise game. the extra moment where you have to ask yourself when exactly you're supposed to be able to grab (if mispaced obv) or use an oos option against this thing means you'll either lose the punish opportunity, or you'll get punished yourself. it's lame and at this point i can only assume that it's deliberately unintuitive. and that's just not okay.

afaik, no other animation is like this and i can only assume that gw is only allowed to get away with it because his animations are "supposed" to look funny. what if samus' dsmash spun her around like 3 times, and after the first rotation she slows down very very very very very very very slightly with no other animation difference, but the hitbox was only during the initial spin? you could interpret this as her trying to slow down and work against the inertia from initiating the spin, and i guess it's understandable, but it would be stupid and lame and everyone would want it gone. just like how it's almost universally agreed that his animations should be adjusted to be more intuitive. except it still hasn't been fixed. ugh

i guess some ways you could make the animation work would be the manhole cover just switching from the high bounce to a very very very low bounce to make it extremely obvious when the hitbox ends. alternatively, you could just make the manhole cover just stop moving and lay flat on the ground or just disappear after the hitbox goes away. i prefer the latter, since that makes it very clear for when the hitbox ends. gw still looks dumb for sitting there with his hands out and waiting for an applause for flipping the cover, but gw is supposed to look weird anyway, yeah?

 

[Narpas_sword]

There are probably other examples of similar things, but they're more intuitive due to the character having more fluid animations.

 

[Player -0]

Giving G&W's Dair landing hitboxes the Yoshi nerf seems reasonable. Then if they shield poke then change that?

It seems reasonable to me.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Giving G&W's Dair landing hitboxes the Yoshi nerf seems reasonable. Then if they shield poke then change that?

It seems reasonable to me.

What do you mean by the Yoshi nerf? Do you mean make it not combo and instead just hit them away? The changes the use of the move entirely. The reason Yoshi's dair was (imo rightfully) changed from 3.0 was because the move had the potential to do 40+ damage AND pop you up really nice for a combo. I was still disappointed to see it leave because I loved the combos you could get off of it and it seem really cool. I would love it G&W could be kept, even if it meant trimming it down some.

 

[Nausicaa]

When Yoshi had the 2.1 Link/TL silly grab and an instant lead-in non-DIable Down-B hit, and a ground-bounce on D-Air
I got the feeling of "why does this character have these?"

Was sweet, but gotta move on sometime. Yoshi seems more proper(er-ish) now.