Tier List Speculation

[Rizner]

Yeah, that's not funny. Especially not, when your grandparents and many other family members fell victim to... it.

...

Oh wait I wasn't talking about cancer, they got bored to death by a Zelda main Keepo

It's like a zss main who doesn't like her 3.5 kit saying something, but every time they do, people give them a hard time. She had issues in 3.02 - sure, I get that. The main one was nayru invincibility. Many complained about dins, but usually they didn't understand how to play against it and didn't care to learn. Should she have been changed? I think so. Did all specials have to be modified in a way that changes her entire style or game plan? Probably not. It's ok to prefer things from previous versions.

 

[CORY]

Question: Do bowser's armored attacks beat get up attacks? If so, Klaw Slam -> Dsmash is stronk.

Speaking of stronk, I have something in mind for DK:

that'd probably be damage dependent (do get up attacks have a varying strength amongst the cast?). you might also be able to overlap coverage between tech in place and missed tech-[whatever] with the same dsmash? i don't know where he releases them from the throw, so it might be possible, but someone who's actually done the testing would need to chime in.

 

[FreeGamer]

I miss crit LKs and the multiple fireballs, but it isn't like Zelda was nerfed to unplayability in 3.5/3.6. >_>

All she needs is a Din's Fire that threatens space well, and she'll fit her niche to a T.

 

[ZGE]

I miss crit LKs and the multiple fireballs, but it isn't like Zelda was nerfed to unplayability in 3.5/3.6. >_>

All she needs is a Din's Fire that threatens space well, and she'll fit her niche to a T.

Time to make the fireball take up half the stage :D

 

[JOE!]

that'd probably be damage dependent (do get up attacks have a varying strength amongst the cast?). you might also be able to overlap coverage between tech in place and missed tech-[whatever] with the same dsmash? i don't know where he releases them from the throw, so it might be possible, but someone who's actually done the testing would need to chime in.

I'm currently making a spreadsheet of all the getup attacks in PM with their damage/kb/frame data stuff. BBL with useful stuff

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

I'm currently making a spreadsheet of all the getup attacks in PM with their damage/kb/frame data stuff. BBL with useful stuff

They're pretty universal from what I've recorded. What may vary by a small amount is the frame data.

Edit: What's wrong with Zelda having a normal fireball? :T

 

[Rizner]

I miss crit LKs and the multiple fireballs, but it isn't like Zelda was nerfed to unplayability in 3.5/3.6. >_>

All she needs is a Din's Fire that threatens space well, and she'll fit her niche to a T.

She wasn't, but she was changed on how she should fundamentally play which some people will find more and some people will find less entertaining. Like ZSS - the previous players aren't happy with her now. Not because she's unusable or bad, but because she's different in a way they don't like.

I miss her love jump and the way her up-b cancels worked before. Both of those aspects were fun and not really overly powerful to require a rework imo. Her new fireball I think has the same issues as the old ones, and is a bad mechanic overall in that it rewards random chance a lot more than her old ones. I think the older ones could have been changed in a different way to make them play similar to how they were but not be overly centralizing / dominating in some matchups (see 3.02 Zelda vs Ness, Ganon or Marth). Honestly after not playing her much in 3.5 I can come back to her in 3.6 and she feels ok. But going straight from 3.02 to 3.5 was rough, just like if they had Zelda how she is now and implemented 3.02 zelda in the next patch, those who play her at the moment probably wouldn't enjoy that but new Zelda players would be cool with it.

 

[FreeGamer]

Edit: What's wrong with Zelda having a normal fireball? :T

That depends... what do you consider normal?

 

[LupinX]

Do you think Zelda should have better ground/aerial mobility? Maybe giving Din more versatility? I would also think adding more gravity (fastfall) would be good. What do you guys think?

 

[FreeGamer]

She should remain slow/floaty but have better zoning. I believe it's possible to make her unique without being blantantly under/overpowered, even if it takes them until version 5.0.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

That depends... what do you consider normal?

You shoot it.
It travels across the screen
When it hit something, it explodes.
Like a Falco Laser, but it's a ball of fire.

 

[FreeGamer]

that sounds crazy and OP

let's do it

 

[Chevy]

That includes money matches. I lost a MM against Darc game five last stock using all Ness. Played him in bracket, games one and two I used Samus and won against his Falcon and lost against his Marth on WW. Game three I went Ness and lost last stock against his Marth. I was actually really disappointed at that point and I didn't even want to play anymore. Hence me losing immediately in loser's. I didn't get a chance to take a break and collect myself. I was just super tilty. My own fault.

But, for example, I lost to Bacon Pancakes with Ness in a MM. So I went Samus in bracket and won 2-0. I lost to Twisty with Ness and although we only played friendlies after, it was pretty clear that I was beating him with Samus. She's just such a better character.

I mean, she probably has a better spread yeah. But it's not like she's strictly better or anything, characters are different.

 

[JOE!]

They're pretty universal from what I've recorded. What may vary by a small amount is the frame data.

Edit: What's wrong with Zelda having a normal fireball? :T

Only a handful of character sin and they all have significant differences.

Did you know that Diddy's get up attack always hits back, then forward? If you are in front of Diddy you have about 24 frames to react to the fact that he did that option.

 

[4tlas]

Do you think Zelda should have better ground/aerial mobility? Maybe giving Din more versatility? I would also think adding more gravity (fastfall) would be good. What do you guys think?

I think her lack of mobility and floatiness is part of her character niche and should remain. But to bring it back to tier lists, would it make her better? Not necessarily. Getting out of combos and recovering from afar are things she is good at which require the floatiness, and while being slow is obviously a strict disadvantage, she has the teleport to give her situational mobility. The only place she is fully lacking which ends up really hurting her is a lack of sudden burst movement, so its still hard to get past walls. Like, very very hard. Making dash attack go a little further might be enough to make her just bad at it instead of terrible.

 

[Tomaster]

He's still good, just needs theory put into practice. None of his options are particularly dominant taken individually, his movement is rather demanding in terms of precision, and his mental game is also rather demanding in its own way because of how he can juggle different options and strategies depending on the situation. Bringing it all together is tricky, especially against a character like Falcon that can smother partially-developed gameplans with his DD. It's doable, but Falcon players arguably have a better understanding of their own play & how to execute it than Mewtwo players. That's no small advantage. Give it time.

Well said

 

[TheGravyTrain]

When I tested on Squirtle, Bowser klaw down throw into immediate dsmash couldn't connect on tech in place/miss tech. A frame perfect dash attack hits those plus tech roll. Implausible, but hilarious. Stupid tech rolls...

 

[Boiko]

I mean, she probably has a better spread yeah. But it's not like she's strictly better or anything, characters are different.

Characters are different, yes, but those differences are what make a character better or worse. Samus IS strictly better than Ness.

 

[Rizner]

Do you think Zelda should have better ground/aerial mobility? Maybe giving Din more versatility? I would also think adding more gravity (fastfall) would be good. What do you guys think?

Right now I don't like the design of dins. I'm not sure what I would implement in its place, but would definitely change it.
For balance, I'd be interested in seeing/testing a faster hitbox and disappearance on up b - give her something a little faster to get out of situations without changing her overall movement. Unsure if it'd be too good, but I'd like to try it out

 

[Beorn]

I'm just gonna assume that the complete lack of a grab bubble on the latter part of Links grab was an accident....

 

[FirewaterDM]

So where do people think ICes are at this point in the game? Because currently I feel like they aren't hindered by their moveset, but they only will stay mid-tierish until people know how to fight them.

Once that happens I think they're bottom 10 again because of all of those hilariously bad MUs. Or is there something I'm missing here?

 

[CyberZixx]

I'm just gonna assume that the complete lack of a grab bubble on the latter part of Links grab was an accident....

good find. just debugged it and that is wild. Nerfs the range and makes it that much more punishable.

 

[Beorn]

good find. just debugged it and that is wild. Nerfs the range and makes it that much more punishable.

yeah... I'm gonna go cry into my Link body pillow...

 

[Hylian]

So where do people think ICes are at this point in the game? Because currently I feel like they aren't hindered by their moveset, but they only will stay mid-tierish until people know how to fight them.

Once that happens I think they're bottom 10 again because of all of those hilariously bad MUs. Or is there something I'm missing here?

Top mid or high. I would say top 10 in the game easy if not for bad match-ups. Luckily, the death match-ups(peach/tl/ivy) are pretty rare characters so they are a pretty good tournament character.

 

[Boiko]

Top mid or high. I would say top 10 in the game easy if not for bad match-ups. Luckily, the death match-ups(peach/tl/ivy) are pretty rare characters so they are a pretty good tournament character.

I would say that Samus beats them pretty badly as well, tbh. She's also pretty uncommon though, so there's that.

 

[Hylian]

I would say that Samus beats them pretty badly as well, tbh. She's also pretty uncommon though, so there's that.

I think samus beats them, but it's like 6-4 so it's completely doable. A lot of IC's don't understand how to approach that match-up as well.

 

[Boiko]

I think samus beats them, but it's like 6-4 so it's completely doable. A lot of IC's don't understand how to approach that match-up as well.

Maybe you're right. I've only played with a few good IC's, Phresh being the more notable one. She has really safe pressure against them, especially since all of her tilts are safe when spaced, as are her nair and dair. She can split them up with up b, and it seems like dealing with missiles is a lot harder than using ice blocks in melee.

I really can't base my knowledge of the MU off of playing with one or two players though. I'm just theory crafting.

 

[Deleted member]

can someone articulate explain to me why eeryone hates GAW in one post? and then tag me so i cant miss it?

 

[Hylian]

can someone articulate explain to me why eeryone hates GAW in one post? and then tag me so i cant miss it?

I don't understand the GW hate either lol. Seems like a fair character to me that's around the middle of the cast in terms of balance, possibly high tier.

 

[Frost | Odds]

can someone articulate explain to me why eeryone hates GAW in one post? and then tag me so i cant miss it?

Smash players don't know how to play around reversals.

 

[Rizner]

Top mid or high. I would say top 10 in the game easy if not for bad match-ups. Luckily, the death match-ups(peach/tl/ivy) are pretty rare characters so they are a pretty good tournament character.

Until you live in Ohio. Fumbles has it rough tbh - best player in the region is a peach lol.

I think Zelda also wins the matchup - I could see it being 6:4

 

[ZombieBran]

Weird that people who didn't like playing as her before find her fun and people also hate playing against her waaay less
it's almost like zelda mains were cancer enjoying cancer

I forgot how cult-like you PM players can be.
Defending every bad decision until one hits your main.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Smash players don't know how to play around reversals.

Kinda funny to say, when we have Shine that exists.

 

[Downdraft]

Weird that people who didn't like playing as her before find her fun and people also hate playing against her waaay less
it's almost like zelda mains were cancer enjoying cancer

I'm only aware of two players that didn't enjoy playing her 2.6b/3.02 forms. 100% agreement on how enjoyable a character's design is does not exist. Anyways, the double standards are a real problem. How are Fox and Marth not considered "cancerous" to the game when they dominate most of the cast? Also, there's a double standard in what's considered hype versus what's considered grounds for salt. D-throw -> Knee or Stomp -> Knee are treated like they're hype but Lighting Kicks just get salt. Nayru's gets salt while Shine gets praise.

As far as hatred is concerned, it still exists in great amounts. When Zelda is mentioned in this thread, it typically is met with hostility and opposition, so the "way less" part of your post is insignificant. She is still one of the most complained about characters, and heaven forbid she starts getting more great players to represent her nationally. PMDT doesn't explain the rationale behind most changes, so it's understandable that some of us believe that her kit was severely toned down just to make the game more enjoyable for the majority of vocal or influential PM players with little regard for Zelda mains.

 

[Mean Green]

Nobody's immune to the novelty factor (aka lack of matchup knowledge), though extremely adaptable players given strong campy characters who can avoid interaction (cough, Fox) can largely mitigate the effect.

(+5)
Still? This thread is still finding ways to complain about Fox, and liking those posts? I'm not even going to keep reading onward, I'm done.

 

[Life]

D-throw -> Knee or Stomp -> Knee are treated like they're hype but Lighting Kicks just get salt. Nayru's gets salt while Shine gets praise.

'm gonna have to disagree with those two examples, particularly the second one. Can't speak for the rest of the post, though.

 

[Downdraft]

'm gonna have to disagree with those two examples, particularly the second one. Can't speak for the rest of the post, though.

I can understand your disagreement with shine, but I haven't noticed the hate or a destruction of its utility like Nayru's received.

 

[Chevy]

Characters are different, yes, but those differences are what make a character better or worse. Samus IS strictly better than Ness.

Fox isn't even strictly better than Bowser in Melee lol. You can't just say a character has a better spread and that makes them just plain better. Everyone has tools that work better in different situations and different player/character matchups.

 

[mimgrim]

Fox isn't even strictly better than Bowser in Melee lol. You can't just say a character has a better spread and that makes them just plain better. Everyone has tools that work better in different situations and different player/character matchups.

Uhmmmm.

Fox is strictly better then Bowser in Melee.

A character having a better match-up spread then another character does indeed make them plain better.

Just because characters have different tools doesn't mean some character don't have better/worse tools then others.

This is just simple logic. .-.

 

[Deleted member]

Fox isn't even strictly better than Bowser in Melee lol. You can't just say a character has a better spread and that makes them just plain better. Everyone has tools that work better in different situations and different player/character matchups.

In a game where your success as a character survives off of how well you perform vs the other characters, Fox IS strictly better than Bowser in Melee. There is no situation where you would say "I'm going to switch to Bowser because he is better in this matchup than Fox"