Tier List Speculation

[Saproling]

i'll give someone a dollar if they can figure out how the criteria for howView attachment 68171 this tier list is ranked

A dollar isnt worth the aneurysm it would take to solve this.

 

[eideeiit]

i'll give someone a dollar if they can figure out how the criteria for howView attachment 68171 this tier list is ranked

This tier list is ranked "last" out of "all"

0/10
Too much idiocy

Anyhow


I hate myself for failing to stick with a single main despite playing for ~18 months. Could someone make a tier list based on fundamental soundness, as in a character that requires good play and not abusal of said character to win?

Ofc everyone needs it, but the way I see it a low/mid level Fox can to a very large degree just do their tech skill stuff and watch their opponents crumble. Please catch my drift. Thanks.

 

[White Light]

YOU ALL GOT TROLLED
hahahah
it was ranked on how fun the character is to play as, hence fox is at the bottom and marth and jigglypuff, whose moves look the same, are also bottom tier. ganon and snake and mario are dope.

 

[Manaconda]

"marth and jigglypuff"
"moves look the same"

Edit: removed arrows because I'm not a 14 year old on /r9k/

 

[The Baron]

YOU ALL GOT TROLLED
hahahah
it was ranked on how fun the character is to play as, hence fox is at the bottom and marth and jigglypuff, whose moves look the same, are also bottom tier. ganon and snake and mario are dope.

cool beans. Have your special hat showing how cool and trolly you are you hardcore manly man of manliness you. back to other tier list things...

This tier list is ranked "last" out of "all"

0/10
Too much idiocy

Anyhow


I hate myself for failing to stick with a single main despite playing for ~18 months. Could someone make a tier list based on fundamental soundness, as in a character that requires good play and not abusal of said character to win?

Ofc everyone needs it, but the way I see it a low/mid level Fox can to a very large degree just do their tech skill stuff and watch their opponents crumble. Please catch my drift. Thanks.

I guess you mean a fundamentals based character which basically means pretty boy marth or Dude with suspiciously large, child bearing like hips shiek. I still don't really see what you're asking. At the highest level of play you'll still be using certain things only your character can do to edge out victories since your opponent can't. Unless you decide to ditto all the time, you'll always be slightly fraudulent carried by your character in certain matchups and sometimes it'll hurt you. so yeah. Marth and shiek

 

[PlateProp]

Squirtle has maximum versatility but zero viability

Keeping the meme alove boys

 

[AceGamer]

i'll give someone a dollar if they can figure out how the criteria for howView attachment 68171 this tier list is ranked

Marth and Pit as boring as Puff..... toppest of keks

I will say that Marth is the least fun of the FE boys for me but anything is more fun than Puff imo lol

 

[Warhawk]

Ive been trying to think of tools to give Bowser and DK to help them out and wanted to pose something i quickly thought of that may be a small help. What if Bowser or Dk's down tilt was quicker, did less percent, and caused a trip on grounded opponents? It would give them a quick poke in front of them that could force a tech chase that can net them grabs more easily. It also forces the opponent to give up space to respect the threat of it or go over it, giving them a way to force approaches on a limited basis. Im sure with what little thought ive put into it and limited experience with them that my suggestion doesnt really help them like im thinking but im hoping someone will tell me why this idea sucks and doesn't help them.

EDIT: Actually already having problems with this idea

I really think the two of them can be given some much better tools without being completely terrible to play against. When I think of another good, slow character in Peach I think of her amazing moves that allow her to be good despite a mediocre platform. Dsmash, nair, dash attack, fair all incredible moves. And Peach has a float, giving her a better platform than either of them, so why can't they have some incredible moves?

 

[Nausicaa]

If a vertically challenged, italian plumber can pick up Bowser and throw him around, I sure as ph00k could.

Secret
His shell is filled with Helium

I hate myself for failing to stick with a single main despite playing for ~18 months. Could someone make a tier list based on fundamental soundness, as in a character that requires good play and not abusal of said character to win?

Ofc everyone needs it, but the way I see it a low/mid level Fox can to a very large degree just do their tech skill stuff and watch their opponents crumble. Please catch my drift. Thanks.

Fox/Wolf, just play Wolf like Fox the way Prof/Lucien/SW/Chill/etc were for the first year. You'll get by the way they did for as long as they did, but with a little more Side-B because that's finally accepted as good/normal Wolf stuff.

Mario/Sheik/TL/Kirby/Wario/Ike/ZSS/GW, do what you want and crap should work out pretty well.

When it comes to a BIG group of characters...
-Zard/MK/Roy/ROB/Ness/Ganon/Luigi/ICs/DK/Falcon/Marth/Oli/Link... etc
...the game-plan and necessary mental disposition can be pretty direct and focused into a linear mode of play or set of tools and targets/objectives in almost any given match-up, and with that solid style that suites you MATCHED to the character where that solid style fits best, you'll do great.

What if Bowser or Dk's down tilt was quicker, did less percent, and caused a trip on grounded opponents?

That's been one of my top hopes/wishes for Bowser for a very long time.
edit: Rather than a trip though, more like Yoshi/MK/Kirby-esque type of pokes.

 

[Warhawk]

That's been one of my top hopes/wishes for Bowser for a very long time.
edit: Rather than a trip though, more like Yoshi/MK/Kirby-esque type of pokes.

The more I think about it, the better for the game that poke seems, my immediate thought was to get his grab game involved with it but the more I think about it the sillier it seems for high percent

 

[Nausicaa]

I'd love for Klaw to have 2 versions. 1 is the one that exists in 3.6, 1 happens when Smashed, and has the same Armor it did in 3.0, but takes a touch longer to come out, and can't be done in the air.

 

[Saproling]

What if kk had another direction input so it had more mix up capability?

 

[Frost | Odds]

What if kk had another direction input so it had more mix up capability?

Hypothetically speaking, it would need to somehow check away-DI in order to meaningfully impact the game and help the f-throw be more reliably effective. I would probably prefer that solution rather than further complicating KK's role in non-punish situations via diversifying its inputs.

Armor on a command grab still seems very anti-smash, even though I find myself unconsciously trying to use the KK for its old armor property all the goddamn time.

 

[Nausicaa]

Anti-smash, or unique and cool and we want a bit of all that sweet stuff in a Smash game if we can do it?

KK was pretty cool with the armor.
Makes **** look sick as ****

 

[Frost | Odds]

Heh, if everyone were super adaptable and able to deal with highly complex characters, I'd be all for it- but I get enough complaints about Bowser as it is. :x

 

[mimgrim]

I actually thought armor on KK was pretty cool myself.

Then again I kinda think armor is a cool idea in general and would like to see a character focused around it/have more of it then general and was kinda sad to see how it was taken away/toned down on Bowser.

Idk, I'm weird. I just want to see a supper defensive juggernaut character who makes it really really hard to get in on them and is able to force people to try and get in on them. Basically a a character super good at keeping a character out and built around it with armor and stuff and should never be forced to approach but once a character does get in on them they get rekt hard. I always though Bowser would have been a good fit for that type of character as I imagine as suppose to being the big giant threatening fortress of a monster who is great in the defensive area and able to play off of it but once someone gets in on him they gonna bring the pain because of his size.

But people seem to really hate that in a character. :/

 

[DrinkingFood]

The new angle on KK isn't that terrible lol. No you don't get a guaranteed follow-up, but you can force a jump out and get a extremely good stagger situation

 

[Zigludo]

Hypothetically speaking, it would need to somehow check away-DI in order to meaningfully impact the game and help the f-throw be more reliably effective. I would probably prefer that solution rather than further complicating KK's role in non-punish situations via diversifying its inputs.

This is exactly how I feel. In fact it's how I feel about Bowser's punish shortcomings in general - your punishes are going to be small if your opponent takes a few minutes to study the matchup, because every single one of his moves except utilt has the same proper combo DI - namely, mostly outwards and slightly down. The only time you would want to stop inputting this DI would be if you were in danger of dying to a tipper F-air, which is a) usually somewhat predictable and b) significantly weakened in 3.6. That's not to say it never happened, but it was only helpful if you were punishing your opponent offstage at a % where fair could kill and uair wouldn't, which is something of an edge case.

If I were given carte blanche to redesign Klaw throws, I would probably make the fthrow 80° and the bthrow 100°, with knockback and damage equal to 3.5 fthrow values. That way, proper DI can save you, but no DI or improper DI will earn you a uair to the face or whatever. People who never learned to DI klaw to begin with won't notice the difference

Armor on a command grab still seems very anti-smash, even though I find myself unconsciously trying to use the KK for its old armor property all the goddamn time.

I disagree, armored command grab isn't mechanically very different from a shield grab. In the case of 3.5 Klaw, it was basically a shieldgrab that traded in a 47 frame commitment in exchange for a much smaller gap between the protected frames and the grab itself. The armor ended on frame 12 and the grab occurred on frame 16, which is kinda-sorta like a frame 4 shieldgrab. This allowed Bowser to punish perfect nair shines and even multishines if the klaw was timed correctly, which cannot be said for any shieldgrab in the game except for cases of very good shield DI. The only really janky thing about 3.5 command grab was the fact that it looked funny.

I can't break the habit of using Grounded Klaw to punish approaches either, so I just get wrecked over and over again... Too many hundreds of hours of playtime in 3.5, I suppose. 3.6 Grounded Klaw is basically worthless unless your opponent is stuck in endlag as far as I can tell.

The new angle on KK isn't that terrible lol. No you don't get a guaranteed follow-up, but you can force a jump out and get a extremely good stagger situation

I wouldn't describe it as 'extremely good.' Even with neutral DI your opponent has plenty of options to outmaneuver your attempted followups. With proper DI those possible followups evaporate entirely, and against characters with burst movement combo escape options (Sonic, GnW, Mewtwo) they don't exist in the first place.

The old angle was pretty good. It had guaranteed followups vs fastfallers and demanded proper DI to setup the stagger situations you described in your post against midweights and could still stand to punish floaties with neutral/bad DI since the downB jump went sufficiently high in the last patch (absolutely no idea why that was nerfed). But I wouldn't call it "extremely good" unless it had a meaningful mixup for DI away and down, which isn't true unless you have a setup for an edgeguard on bthrow which is only a small minority of the time.

 

[steelguttey]

the way i see grapplers/heavies is a certain kind of high risk/high reward situations. in neutral, you have fast, sort of laggy burst movement options that you can cancel into 50/50 mixups or a cross up something. when you get in, you have a scary series of mixups that if they keep leading in your favor, you take a huge chunk off your opponent. burst movement on heavies is especially important in pm at least

 

[Blazing Ambition]

Is it possible to have a downwards variation of KK that would allow bowser to get followups on floaties?
(Kind of like mario up-throw for FFers and down-throw for floaties)

 

[DrinkingFood]

Is it possible to have a downwards variation of KK that would allow bowser to get followups on floaties?
(Kind of like mario up-throw for FFers and down-throw for floaties)

iirc the main reason bowser doesn't have more directional options for KK is that they do not know how to add them
otherwise it probably wouldn't be out of the question for him to have the flying slam+another throw.

 

[Zigludo]

Is it possible to have a downwards variation of KK that would allow bowser to get followups on floaties?
(Kind of like mario up-throw for FFers and down-throw for floaties)

yeah. just make it a relatively-low knockback throw with a downwards angle like Ganon's dthrow or Mario's dthrow, with an early enough IASA frame. the thing is, it would also end up being a chaingrab in a lot of situations... like Ganon's dthrow or Mario's dthrow :V

maybe it wouldn't cg effectively if you put the angle closer to horizontal? idk

iirc the main reason bowser doesn't have more directional options for KK is that they do not know how to add them
otherwise it probably wouldn't be out of the question for him to have the flying slam+another throw.

I'd be willing to trade away the bthrow for a reversed version of the fthrow, personally. As is, they don't really mixup for each other very effectively in most situations. But hey, if PMDT thinks that's OP, or that they really really like the Melee bthrow, then it's their decision to make

 

[Ripple]

I know for a fact they can add more directions to KK because we did that for brawl minus

 

[PlateProp]

How to make bowser good in 1 step:

Unban Giga Bowser

 

[tasteless gentleman]

The new angle on KK isn't that terrible lol. No you don't get a guaranteed follow-up, but you can force a jump out and get a extremely good stagger situation

The new angle makes you have no follow up options against many character with good DI and 0 follow ups on and fast faller with No DI or bad DI. Plus it does less hitstun so they are likely already out and countering anyway...

My personal thoughts on bowser that would help his "getting camped out" game would be to give him a bite that "eats" projectiles and stores them, then can fire them out at twice the speed or twice the power or 1.5 for both. (like oil panic or villagers pocket)

And I would like a KK down and up input if they are gonna leave that awful trajectory, give bowser a DI mix up or the old angle. Let him has some kind of punish game outside of up throw, fair, fair, fair

 

[GrosMinou]

How to make bowser good in 1 step:

Unban Giga Bowser

then someone picks falco and spam lasers and its GG

 

[Boiko]

Why do you necessarily need a follow up after landing a command grab? Don't you think that good counter play should be rewarded? If someone DI's your command grab properly, why should you still be guaranteed a follow up? Instead approach the situation as if they are going to DI properly and force a jump into a stagger situation. Stop trying to play it like it's 3.5 Bowser and applying 3.5 Bowser logic to the exchange and maybe you'll get more follow-ups.

I think you're looking in the wrong place to buff Bowser.

 

[Electric Tuba]

Why do you necessarily need a follow up after landing a command grab? Don't you think that good counter play should be rewarded? If someone DI's your command grab properly, why should you still be guaranteed a follow up? Instead approach the situation as if they are going to DI properly and force a jump into a stagger situation. Stop trying to play it like it's 3.5 Bowser and applying 3.5 Bowser logic to the exchange and maybe you'll get more follow-ups.

I think you're looking in the wrong place to buff Bowser.

You're mostly right; on good DI getting no followup is reasonable, but in many situations bad DI/no DI also has no followups, as opposed to 3.5.

But that said, Klaw won't be the thing that saves bowser or whatever, it'll have to be something that gives him some way to deal with characters never approaching/dash dance camping him out (And that is preferably less lame to play against than flame breath).

 

[tasteless gentleman]

You're mostly right; on good DI getting no followup is reasonable, but in many situations bad DI/no DI also has no followups, as opposed to 3.5.

But that said, Klaw won't be the thing that saves bowser or whatever, it'll have to be something that gives him some way to deal with characters never approaching/dash dance camping him out (And that is preferably less lame to play against than flame breath).

The no follow up with no or bad DI is my problem, if you DI right, okay good job. But if you avoid getting a follow up because you there was no follow up possible, thats the problem. I do agree that KK wont fix bowser, but i also dont agree that its gonna be just 1 thing to make him c+ tier. Its gonna take better tech rolls, better ariel DI (seriously why do different characters have better and worse DI anyway?), Actual punish and follow up options, Something to combat camp players and approach options, and for the love of god fix the ledge grab and waveland bugs

 

[Jacob29]

Why do you necessarily need a follow up after landing a command grab? Don't you think that good counter play should be rewarded? If someone DI's your command grab properly, why should you still be guaranteed a follow up? Instead approach the situation as if they are going to DI properly and force a jump into a stagger situation. Stop trying to play it like it's 3.5 Bowser and applying 3.5 Bowser logic to the exchange and maybe you'll get more follow-ups.

I think you're looking in the wrong place to buff Bowser.

I kinda get your point, but maybe we should apply that to Diddy as well? Even though his grab is ranged, can be turned into an actual attack, and can get follow ups he is still allowed it. (and should keep it I don't think it should be removed).

I haven't thought hard enough about Bowser to specifically say his side-b should be buffed, but if a Bowser catches you in a shield with his command grab why isn't he allowed a follow up guaranteed? Lots of characters have guaranteed follow ups, granted not from a command grab.. but why aren't command grabs allowed followups like grabs?

The only real difference is it's usable in the air. Is that buff alone enough to warrant no guaranteed follow ups?

Again, I'm not actually saying Bowser needs this buff. I am just questioning your logic behind not buffing it to this level.

 

[Rizner]

I kinda get your point, but maybe we should apply that to Diddy as well? Even though his grab is ranged, can be turned into an actual attack, and can get follow ups he is still allowed it. (and should keep it I don't think it should be removed).

I haven't thought hard enough about Bowser to specifically say his side-b should be buffed, but if a Bowser catches you in a shield with his command grab why isn't he allowed a follow up guaranteed? Lots of characters have guaranteed follow ups, granted not from a command grab.. but why aren't command grabs allowed followups like grabs?

The only real difference is it's usable in the air. Is that buff alone enough to warrant no guaranteed follow ups?

Again, I'm not actually saying Bowser needs this buff. I am just questioning your logic behind not buffing it to this level.

Saying he doesn't deserve to have it doesn't also mean he deserves to not have it.

Just to not be super driven on that aspect and to actually see how and where bowser is right now, so it's possible to look holistically at him and figure out what should be done going forward, if anything

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

If fast characters can kill consistently around 100, why not make fatties kill around 70% with their bread and butter kill moves.

 

[Rizner]

If fast characters can kill consistently around 100, why not make fatties kill around 70% with their bread and butter kill moves.

There's more that would go into those decisions - how easy or fast can fast characters get you to 100; fat to 70? What tools do each have to survive? In what ways do they all kill - top, side blast zones, spikes, edge guards, suicide move options? What are your options when offstage; options when opponent is offstage? It isn't just a kill percent and setup question

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

Well currently most of the fatties are bad and building damage, because they can't win neutral. have poor recoveries, kill in various directions, and DDD aside, are bad at going off stage to edge guard.

 

[Nausicaa]

Someone completely re-design literally every single one of Bowser's moves and see what happens.

I quickly put together the base of a tier-list and put Fox as 9th and Sheik as 30th to start with.
Melee characters suck.

 

[Rizner]

Well currently most of the fatties are bad and building damage, because they can't win neutral. have poor recoveries, kill in various directions, and DDD aside, are bad at going off stage to edge guard.

And there's more to consider than just kill percents if you want to fix that

Someone completely re-design literally every single one of Bowser's moves and see what happens.

I quickly put together the base of a tier-list and put Fox as 9th and Sheik as 30th to start with.
Melee characters suck.

Wat. Looking forward to this. Am curious - sounds like it's against the status quo. Can you give explanations when posting?

 

[JOE!]

I dunno about you, but Zard has the right amount of KO power relative to "fasties". I killed a Ganondorf at 35% yesterday with Fsmash

 

[Nausicaa]

I will for sure.
Just threw it together really quick to check out that smash-apps thing, but I'll try to make sense of it as best I can when I do.
No sense in just posting my perspective without description when it won't make any sense to anybody around here otherwise.

Zards F-Smash is sex on a tooth

 

[Frost | Odds]

Someone completely re-design literally every single one of Bowser's moves and see what happens.

I did that during 3.5, or as near as my limited technical ability allowed. Hit me up on skype and I'll send you the (VERY OLD) build for giggles.

Zard's fsmash imo is emblematic of the kind of thing fatties should have more of in terms of kill moves: slightly slow, high commitment, ludicrous kill power.

 

[JOE!]

Note to self: Charizard Uthrow sends at 60*, not 45. Makign it send at 90* shows just how stupid a move with 155kbg is