Tier List Speculation

[ZGE]

it puts people above you, you know the historically worst place to be in smash

Kirby in Smash 64 begs to differ, lol.

But seriously, yes.

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

There are more ways to buff a character than turning a command grab into one of the fastest attacks in the game. That's not "powerful", that's insane. That kind of frame data on a rewarding command grab doesn't really make sense in the context of Smash.

I don't see what would be so broken about it.

It would still require Bowser to get in on the opponent, something that is tough for him to do.
It isn't going to be any less reactable than it is currently.
It would be cooler than ****.
It would still be super punishable on whiff.
People might actually bother to learn to DI somewhat against it if it's more of a threat.

 

[Scuba Steve]

I don't see what would be so broken about it.

It would still require Bowser to get in on the opponent, something that is tough for him to do.
It isn't going to be any less reactable than it is currently.
It would be cooler than ****.
It would still be super punishable on whiff.
People might actually bother to learn to DI somewhat against it if it's more of a threat.

Do you realize just how fast 3 frames is?

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

Do you realize just how fast 3 frames is?

Yeah that's the same frame as MK's Nair, which also has a ton of range and priority, and kills, and is on a much faster character with s much better neutral, and isn't considered broken.

 

[Ripple]

and doesn't ignore shields, and can't be done on the ground, and can be CC'd, and.....

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

and doesn't ignore shields, and can't be done on the ground, and can be CC'd, and.....

It would be way more punishable than other super fast moves though, it wouldn't be like shine or MK Nair. I would even be cool with the whiff lag being increased.
I'm not trying to say this isn't a huge buff. This change alone would be enough to make his stagger and punish game solid, he wouldn't need any of his other moves changed to link better, with just this and some buffs to his rolls and spotdodges and general neutral stuff.

I think it would be something worth experimenting with, fatties are naturally bad at nearly everything that is important in the quick mobile game that smash is. They all need something that seems almost ridiculous to get them viable.

P.S. You have no idea how hard I'm trying to keep shine out of my posts lol

 

[Soft Serve]

Frame 3 command grab would just mean people would play to interact with him even less. It wouldn't solve his problems, just make it so approaching him at all is a death sentence, where if you comit to anything he grabs you out of your approach, or your shield, or your dd gran (depending on port priority).

The game plan would still be to just out run him and projectile him down until he shields/is grabbable, or to pick a sword and just out range his moves, only now instead of fair you have to swipe away a 3 frame command grab. The only thing that it would change would make playing vs him less enjoyable or interactive than 3.0 bowser

 

[CORY]

That's also the speed of ganon's jab. So basically, it would let bowser beat a crap ton of oos options once he has momentum, including just shielding the follow-up from aerials.

Basically, if bowser touches your shield with a f3 command grab, the only option is to buffer your roll or spotdodge, or else anything else without startup invuln will be beat, also bcuz grab armor.

It would also need to be incredibly laggy on whiff, to make sure it's able to be punished, and the throws would likely need to be slowed down, as well, since you lose some startup to use as a trigger for "oh crap, got grabbed, di."

It would just be super polarizing and pretty lame, ultimately, neiyher of which being something bowser needs, really. Mist fatties need their punish game to matter more once they win neutral and/or better space controlling moves for the neutral, not super polarizing aspects.

 

[Chevy]

I prefer my command grabs to have start up animations, thank you.

 

[Electric Tuba]

To that really long bowser post:

You make it sound like dash attack is some game breaking option... It's only light armor, it doesn't have IASA till 54, it doesn't invalidate the neutral or whatever... it just means bowser has an option in neutral you have to consider, god forbid he gets those. All you have to do is not run up and try to hit him and nothing bad will ever happen to you


Frame 3 klaw (lol):

The frame 13 command grab Bowser has right now is already incredibly difficult to react to if not impossible to react to for some players.
As people above me have said, frame 3 would be worse than brawl Meta Knight.
Okay, maybe not that bad. But really OP! The speed it's at right now feels really good to me, I don't see it ever needing to be any faster.

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

You guys have some great points about frame 3 Klaw not fixing Vowser's shortcomings.

Now the question is wtf would.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

a frame 3 grab is like a frame 3 overhead

dumb

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Looks Bowser the new "Let's talk about Fox"
The good thing about that 3f Command Grab conceptually is that it teaches people to respect Bowser at close range. The idea can be pushed more in a healthy manner though
Maybe D3 could be made to be the opposite (respect the hammer)

 

[Nausicaa]

The good thing about that 3f Command Grab conceptually is that it teaches people to respect Bowser at close range

Up-B?
Klaw Hopping plz

You guys have some great points about frame 3 Klaw not fixing Vowser's shortcomings.

Now the question is wtf would.

Good question.

Answer = Not much, not much at all.
He's in a good spot for buffing basically in any direction... and SOMETHING has got to work. Just gotta find it.
Armor on Dash-A and N-Air and KK probably aren't the answer, given that's just doing the same thing Up-B etc does, which is simply forcing people to play "Avoid him + grab - the Game"
Anything that is NOT exactly matching his Up-B in counter-play, would be wonderful.

Klaw Hopping plz

Serious note, I'm still wanting better armor on the initiation of Down-B and to be able to jump out of it basically instantly. I think invincible semi-WD's and that kind of presence on approaching with his WL/aerial/Klaw mix of stuff would be a really cool and interactive way of implementing armor into a core-concept of a character.

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

Up-B?
Klaw Hopping plz



Good question.

Answer = Not much, not much at all.
He's in a good spot for buffing basically in any direction... and SOMETHING has got to work. Just gotta find it.
Armor on Dash-A and N-Air and KK probably aren't the answer, given that's just doing the same thing Up-B etc does, which is simply forcing people to play "Avoid him + grab - the Game"
Anything that is NOT exactly matching his Up-B in counter-play, would be wonderful.

Klaw Hopping plz

Serious note, I'm still wanting better armor on the initiation of Down-B and to be able to jump out of it basically instantly. I think invincible semi-WD's and that kind of presence on approaching with his WL/aerial/Klaw mix of stuff would be a really cool and interactive way of implementing armor into a core-concept of a character.

While the idea is cool, you would be forcing Bowser players to be able to do waveshine inputs, and I know a lot of those who play the character, myself included, started doing so partially because of hand troubles and pain, if Bowser got changed in this way I would have to drop the character, even though the idea sounds awesome.

 

[DiZZ]

http://prntscr.com/840tp5
any thoughts on my list

 

[Deleted member]

http://prntscr.com/840tp5
any thoughts on my list

real response: you have the "general" idea, like the super obvious characters are in the right place but everything outside of that is really bad

what I really wanted to respond with: ayy lmao

 

[DiZZ]

not really I cant think of a single way the tier list is really that wrong everyone is around where they are tier gaps arent super large till you get to about d tier

 

[redbeanjelly]

not really I cant think of a single way the tier list is really that wrong everyone is around where they are tier gaps arent super large till you get to about d tier

Why bother asking peoples' thoughts if you're just going to instantly dismiss them anyway?

 

[DiZZ]

Why bother asking peoples' thoughts if you're just going to instantly dismiss them anyway?

because he gave absolutely no examples it was the most bland response possible

 

[Ripple]

maybe you should have been "like who? explain",instead of "No, youre wrong"

 

[Deleted member]

because he gave absolutely no examples it was the most bland response possible

GnW isn't top tier, very likely B tier
Sheik isn't in the same tier as marth/roy/falcon/falco
Toon Link belongs in A tier
Ness is arguable C tier, considering where you placed everyone on that list
Wario is B tier
ZSS is A tier, at the lowest B tier
Luigi is B tier

idk I could go on and on

 

[DiZZ]

maybe you should have been "like who? explain",instead of "No, youre wrong"

well technically if he doesnt state whats wrong how am I suppose to agree lol
EDIT: He posted changes

 

[DiZZ]

Post your own list then I want to see it

 

[Ripple]

general statements can still be correct

 

[Rᴏb]

]

GnW isn't top tier, very likely B tier
Sheik isn't in the same tier as marth/roy/falcon/falco
Toon Link belongs in A tier
Ness is arguable C tier, considering where you placed everyone on that list
Wario is B tier
ZSS is A tier, at the lowest B tier
Luigi is B tier

idk I could go on and on

sounds like my list 8)

 

[steelguttey]

GnW isn't top tier, very likely B tier
Sheik isn't in the same tier as marth/roy/falcon/falco
Toon Link belongs in A tier
Ness is arguable C tier, considering where you placed everyone on that list
Wario is B tier
ZSS is A tier, at the lowest B tier
Luigi is B tier

idk I could go on and on

olimar aint d tier, probably b
peach should be much higher
samus should be at least a tier
etc

 

[FreeGamer]

>Ness in high tier

Shoulda switched him with Wario or Mewtwo.

 

[Jonyc128]

http://prntscr.com/840tp5
any thoughts on my list

Move Sheik to B-tier,
Move Ness to C-tier,
Move Mario to top of B-tier or bottom of A tier
Move Wario Weegee Mew2 and Peach to B
Move Tink to Middle part of A tier

 

[Narelex]

Cool my character is strong again. Can we fix the other characters that need help now too? Share the love.

Ness, Fatties, Kirby, Link and Tethers* etc


*not a character but still needs fixing

 

[Manaconda]

People have brought up tethers again and again for the past like 30 million years. I'm not sure how the PMDT operates, but I'm guessing that it's been on their list of 'hard stuff to implement' for a long time now.

 

[Ripple]

How to fix tethers: a fix em up guide by Pooch.

Remove Lucas' tether
Bring back 3.02 tethers with 1 cancel instead of 3.

You're welcome

 

[Electric Tuba]

Tethers are fine until they're the only option a character has... As long as there's more to it than "Grab the ledge and wait," are there other problems with tethers?

Contrasting Samus (can get back a couple ways without tether) to Ivysaur (has nothing but tether, despite some projectiles to get people off the ledge).

 

[Deleted member]

I can't wait to tether drop up b people with toon link!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

**** 3.02 tethers

 

[Shokio]

The whole thing about having Bowser's command grab come out on frame 3 was just trolling......right?

http://prntscr.com/840tp5
any thoughts on my list

How dare you put Ganon and Pit in the same tier as Wario and ZSS. (I'm not seriously offended so don't take that the wrong way)

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

The whole thing about having Bowser's command grab come out on frame 3 was just trolling......right?

Too much traditional FG Grappler influence. We're over it now.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I mean... we could totally turn the fatties into bigs from other games.

DK can be Hugo.
Bowser can be Potemkin.
Ganondorf... idk, someone else figure this one out.
D3 can be himself because he's already perfect.
Zard becomes Ridley.

People have brought up tethers again and again for the past like 30 million years. I'm not sure how the PMDT operates, but I'm guessing that it's been on their list of 'hard stuff to implement' for a long time now.

Not even talking Melee tethers, just making PM tether mechanics less ****ing dumb, braindead, and downright bad than they are right now.

Tethers are fine until they're the only option a character has... As long as there's more to it than "Grab the ledge and wait," are there other problems with tethers?

No, that's the problem in a nutshell. The counterplay is dumb and braindead, the interaction all but nonexistent if you know they'll be forced to tether. All you have to do is wait - and if they wait long enough (about one second), you can gain extra frame advantage for free with a well-timed normal getup.

Bringing back one tether cancel does nothing to fix up-b tethers, it just makes z-tethers better. We need a more complete solution than that.

And Lucas' tether definitely does not need to be removed.

 

[trash?]

this depends on which hugo we're talking about, here. 3S hugo was just a slightly more aggressive zangeif, but USF4 hugo is moreso like really early PM bowser, gigantic body with large hurt- and hit-boxes

 

[InfinityCollision]

You're overthinking it. Three words: Giant Palm Bomber.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

You guys have some great points about frame 3 Klaw not fixing Vowser's shortcomings.

Now the question is wtf would.

Normalizing defensive options to be more in line with the rest of the cast. Jumpsquat down to 4-5frames
Slight tweak to improve bowser's ability to powershield, Flame breath slight decrease in range while also being able to cancel out other projectiles (similar to sheik needles), forward smash sped up 7 frames while advancing a step similar to animation diddy takes on forward smash but more to match the character, slight range increase on forward air and made slightly stronger. Holding b during up b causes bowser to rise vertically, (but loses some horizontal momentum.) Up smash sped up 5 frames, and a d.i mix up on up and forward throw.

You can call the character trash if you want, but take a moment to respect that pmdt took the trash of a character in melee + brawl and turned him into something remotely viable.

These changes would give bowser mains more defense against projectile spam, take away the silly flame breath stupidity and make it more normalized without being useless, improves the power/reward disparity on some of his attacks, and improve his recovery slightly, while still allowing it to be a weakness since the bowser player is forced to choose for more vertical distance at the start of the move leaving a visual cue for the edge guarder to catch.