Tier List Speculation

[Damp]

@ Damp

On the topic of Yoshi: Why is it that nobody brings up fair or dtilt when they talk about the crazy good stuff about him. Dtilt is a Marth dtilt. Hits on frame 8, intangible tail, actionable after frame 23, -5 on shield, set knockback (breaks asdi down on dk at 0).

dtilt is ass and godly at the same time. Yoshi's hurtbox extends out before the hitbox, so it basically loses to EVERYTHING. The best you can hope for against a recovery with a hitbox is to trade.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Here it is on frame 8 with hiboxes showing, then without hitboxes on the same frame, then the frame before hitboxes come out. Where the hurtbox extended so it loses to everything? Its got some janky hurtbox the frame after hitboxes, but I am still not sure if that is a brawlbox thing or an actual in game thing (same with bair and ftilt).

 

[Nausicaa]

Dtilt is my fave Yoshi move
Next to Neutral B
And maybe Bair
Naw, it's more favy than Bair still probs

 

[DrinkingFood]

When people say Yoshi's neutral is bad, I say that it doesn't even matter that you're wrong because yoshi has probably one of the biggest disparities in the game between punishing ability and ability to get punished. It doesn't matter if you lose neutral 75% of the time when your punishments on them are 3x as long as their punishments on you.

 

[steelguttey]

and his neutral isnt even bad

if you have a djc and a sex kick that good your neutral isnt bad, not only that but he has egg roll (grounded version) which ****s up shields, a ****in command grab, dtilt which is basically marth's dtilt and bair which is soooo good

also infinite dash dance that too

 

[Damp]

Here it is on frame 8 with hiboxes showing, then without hitboxes on the same frame, then the frame before hitboxes come out. Where the hurtbox extended so it loses to everything? Its got some janky hurtbox the frame after hitboxes, but I am still not sure if that is a brawlbox thing or an actual in game thing (same with bair and ftilt).View attachment 67815 View attachment 67816 View attachment 67817

The image without the hitboxes is the frame before the hitboxes come out.

 

[Damp]

and his neutral isnt even bad

if you have a djc and a sex kick that good your neutral isnt bad, not only that but he has egg roll (grounded version) which ****s up shields, a ****in command grab, dtilt which is basically marth's dtilt and bair which is soooo good

also infinite dash dance that too

Eggroll sucks. That's not even an option in neutral. Egg lay is good for positional advantage, but your opponent gets invincibility upon breaking out. Dtilt is bad in neutral, like I said, it loses to any hitbox, and bair doesn't work half the time. Yoshi's only option in neutral is basically dash dance and djc nair, which means that one bad djc and you are dead at 0%.

 

[Shadic]

@ Damp - Don't double-post, please.

 

[Narpas_sword]

~ when your long punishments on them are 3x as long as their short punishments on you.

Did you mean that the other way around?

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Pretty sure you miss counted your frames. Just double checked in game and the frame that the tail is extended is frame 8, the frame hitboxes are there...

*edit* Oh, and Yoshi dtilt outranges Marth dtilt...
And that's also something I forgot about Yoshi. Yoshi's punishes with fair and apparently dair are pretty insane, but Yoshi is great at escaping punishes on him...

 

[DrinkingFood]

Did you mean that the other way around?

No, I was speaking from the Yoshi's perspective. He's one of the hardest characters to punish and has an excellent punish game.

 

[Narpas_sword]

No, I was speaking from the Yoshi's perspective. He's one of the hardest characters to punish and has an excellent punish game.

I know that's what you meant.

you said "your long punishments on them are 3x as long as their short punishments on you "

A long punish would be expected to be longer than a short punish.
Did you mean:

" your short punishments on them are 3x as long as their long punishments on you"

 

[Nausicaa]

He meant 'science'

Egglay is the stuff that ooze dreams of
Don't diss it

DK aerial Down-B becoming a command grab where he traps the person in a barrel plz

 

[Kapapanerp]

S tier: The cream of the crop. Few weaknesses, many strengths. They have mostly positive matchup spreads with very few even matchups and even fewer negative ones. These characters could use a few nerfs.

A tier: Very strong. These characters can compete with the entire cast and have mostly positive matchup spreads, but not to the extent of the S tier. They have more even and negative matchups than the S tier. With the exception of Sheilda, these characters don't need anything changed about them (maybe tink too)

B tier: Strong. These characters have mostly even matchup spreads with more positive matchups than negative ones. For the most part, these characters are perfect with a few outliers having some questionable design choices that should be addressed, and some that *could* be addressed, but don't really need to be imo.

C tier: Solid. They have a good amount of even matchups, but have more negative matchups than positive ones. These characters could use a few stray buffs and some of them could use some normalization (the way Olimar's pikmin work should be completely changed, I've seen some good ideas).

D tier: Flawed characters. These characters have mostly negative matchups with few even ones and even fewer positive ones. These characters need core elements of their kits redesigned.

did i do good?

Spoiler: text version

S tier: Fox, Wolf, Falco, MK, ROB, Lucario
A tier: Tink, Roy, Diddy, Samus, Marth, Falcon, Sheilda, Lucas, Mewtwo, Ike
B tier: Wario, Peach, ZSS, Snake, Mario, G&W, Luigi, ICs, Link, Pikachu
C tier: Ivysaur, Squirtle, Olimar, Sonic, Charizard, Pit, Yoshi, Ganondorf, Ness
D tier: Kirby, Dedede, Jigglypuff, DK, Bowser

I was thinking of making a tier list, but this is nearly identical to what I was thinking. The only things I would change is moving ness up to low B tier and making Ike higher in A tier.

 

[DrinkingFood]

"3x as long" is used as a comparative term in this sense. "Long" and "short" by themselves are used as general descriptors, not to narrow the list from "all punishments" to "long/short punishments". Yoshi's punishments are long, and everybody else's punishments on him are short, with the difference being (an estimated) 3x. I wish I knew the technical terms for describing words
Uhh, something something... gerund...?

EDIT: Fixed it for clarity anyway

 

[DiZZ]

The more people realize dk is on the bottom spectrum with the rest of the fatties the sooner Pm will be closer to meeting its current goals of balancing the cast

 

[FreeGamer]

Still a better character than Bowser.

 

[Nausicaa]

If Melee Roy just uses Dash-A, he's still better than Melee Ness
If DK just uses Dash-Grab combos, he's still better than Bowser
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmgame

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Lol at gerund... It was confusing the way you worded it. "when your punishments on them are 3x as long as their punishments on you." works way better, the short and long (except the one left in) were unnecessary.

Here's a thought. Not that this will go anywhere, but here is a thought. Currently, people a personal list, people cry out at certain placements, then discussion happens. Just as an alternative, what if we just took a small chunk of the tier list (like bottom 10) and discuss who we think are potential candidates and why, kind of like we were making a community tier list, but not actually working to the end, just having the discussion. Then people are more directed towards a specific topic and people don't go through the same recycled statements about every character they think is out of place on every list (specifically the "this character is good, this character is bad"). Its all over the place.

I'll start. Here would be some characters I think are in or around bottom 10:
Bowser, DDD, Jigglypuff, Pit, Ivysaur, and Ness

Obviously that's not 10, but I thought I would leave it at that for now.

 

[steelguttey]

the problem with that is clarifying that someone is bottom 10 in this game is pointless because that isnt all that bad at all

bottom 3 is the only real bad characters in this game and thats 3 fatties so

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Its doesn't have to be bottom 10, it was more trying to guide the discussion rather then someone posting a list and everyone jumping around wherever on that. Basically, asking what people thought about a specific portion of the list. Idk, it made more sense in my head...

 

[steelguttey]

Eggroll sucks. That's not even an option in neutral. Egg lay is good for positional advantage, but your opponent gets invincibility upon breaking out. Dtilt is bad in neutral, like I said, it loses to any hitbox, and bair doesn't work half the time. Yoshi's only option in neutral is basically dash dance and djc nair, which means that one bad djc and you are dead at 0%.

egg roll makes you go faster and have a hitbox that gives you safe shield pressure and crazy ass cross up potential. egg lay puts your opponent in the air and starts uair chains and lets u sex kick them as much as u want. what the **** are you even saying about dtilt, that move is good based off of its range alone. not only that, its knockback growth is so small it forces a tech nearly every time you hit it which keeps ur opponent grounded (free grabs if u read the tech). bair is a multihit move meaning you have to, listen here, hit it multiple times. theres no bugs involved with bair, its just a multihit move. y'all are being hella uncreative with yoshi's neutral. #potential

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Eh, I don't have much faith in egg roll, but am willing to be proved wrong. Egg lay is great, helps deal with shields and Yoshi is in a Ness kind of group with djc stuff, but with egg lay it just gets better. Dtilt is great. It has set kb btw. Bair is decent, something I like to do is jump forward, turn around dj into a bair. The bug he may be talking about is hurtbox distortion, but that could be a brawl box thing.

 

[steelguttey]

yea another thing about yoshi is how ****in good he is at confirming into kills at high percents

dair, dthrow, dtilt all dont change too drastically at higher percents (dthrow kinda goes higher but its still a great throw)

 

[Electric Tuba]

Yoshi's down tilt loses to a lot of things, but that doesn't change it's set knockback that from on stage can knock several characters off stage far enough that they just die to Yoshi grabbing the ledge, or that it does have excellent range.

 

[Nausicaa]

I'll start. Here would be some characters I think are in or around bottom 10:
Bowser, DDD, Jigglypuff, Pit, Ivysaur, and Ness

Of those, I'll ignore the Pit and Ness stuff because I think they're good and NOT discussing peeps I think are good is probs better for this kind of discussion-direction, but the others are fitting for bottom-10 stuff.

Here's my bottom 5

Bottom 1+2: Ivy and Bowser
Yep
Bowser I think everyone kind of understands him.

A) He plays like a character that
- can't interact with people on his own terms
- makes a lot happen of the few interactions he wins

BUT

B) He can't do what others of this type do
- play a defensive/evasive game to avoid bad situations (peach defending marth neutral stuff)
- turn a situation into an advantage off a single play (peach getting the dash-a on marth at any moment)

BUT

C) His punish is still hard, he has some good tools, and the base/quirk mix is solid
Just could be better, and he'll be fine.

Ivy on the other side.
Recovery is trash and dull/uninteresting/etc.

She can't cover herself well, and her branch area of advantage in the neutral game is quite limited. Given its limitations, it's not overly strong WITHIN those limitations enough to make up for her lacking in other areas.
The old Razor Leaf, B-Air, etc, made her strong BECAUSE they were absurd. She was polarizing as such, but she was VERY solid in the game in general because of them. Even in the match-ups she didn't polarize, it was her 'specifics' game that made her good in even match-ups. With these being still solid, but not busted, and being a little on the lackluster side everywhere else, it's not enough to make her anything but 'even' with anyone in the game outside her polarities, and even the polarities she has aren't at ALL dominant anymore.

Ivy < Bowser < then 3 specialists.

Link < DK < Jiggs
These 3 are great in VERY specific areas, but completely fall apart to some VERY basic things in the game, so any character who can DO those very basic things will crush them.
Otherwise, they're solid in their niche.

tl;dr slight buffs to what bow and ivy either already do (so basically any tools getting more useful to help them) is all that's needed to make them VERY well-fit in this game.
Where some well-rounding attention to Link/DK/Jiggs would make them a lot less specifically-good and a lot funner.
Otherwise, in the game right now, that's what I see at the bottom of the roster.

Low Tier

 

[didds]

Yoshi has a pretty average neutral game.

He has tons of great movement tools and can put hitboxes where they need to be.

...buuuuuuut, he also has to commit hard to most of these options and misreading the opponent makes yoshi easily punishable/an easy target.

It all adds up to a character who sometimes looks unstoppable and sometimes looks like he can't do anything based on which player has the read.

It all kind of evens out, and like a lot of people said, he makes up for it with his punishes

 

[Nausicaa]

Yoshi has a pretty average neutral game.

He has tons of great movement tools and can put hitboxes where they need to be.

...buuuuuuut, he also has to commit hard to most of these options and misreading the opponent makes yoshi easily punishable/an easy target.

It all adds up to a character who sometimes looks unstoppable and sometimes looks like he can't do anything based on which player has the read.

It all kind of evens out, and like a lot of people said, he makes up for it with his punishes

kiiiiiiiiind of why giving him the 2.1 Link/TL GRAB YOU EVEN IF YOU'RE ON MARS attached to a pivot that had less than 0 frames of lag was so silly.
Glad it's gone. Yoshi is a little more normal and a little better-fitting in the game now than ever.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

What are peoples opinions on the up air and weight changes? Up air on paper looks barely changed, its more getting the grabs that's harder for the down throw up air kills. I would like to hear how much the weight makes a difference. Nvmd, ill ask the Yoshi boards if they have tested at all. Forgot the Yoshi boards are pretty active.

The recovery changes, theory, I hate. If you can DJ armor through them, great? If not? Well... Its kind of like the other side of Ivy (in that its pretty good). It just seems really boring. Side b sucks for recovery (I heard its worse then in melee), upb is good to "sweetspot" and down b lets you fake going high and psych going to the ledge. I guess air dodges can be mixed in. Idk, it just seems like it works too well in most situations, but when someone can break armor, it becomes crap. At least before there was a mixup because they would go for footstools and you can start an attack to avoid it, but they also could go for an attack and by trying to attack you lose your armor. Now its kind of bland.

@ Nausicaa
That's kind of what I was going for. There was going to be others added later but I couldn't decide, then I posted it. I could definitely get behind that bottom 5. What are y'all's opinion of Zard? Its tempting to put him bottom 15 with the other 3 fatties (ignoring Ike and Dorf) just cuz. When I play him, there are moments when everything makes sense, but others where his stupid tail or wings get in the way.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Yoshi has a pretty average neutral game.

He has tons of great movement tools and can put hitboxes where they need to be.

...buuuuuuut, he also has to commit hard to most of these options and misreading the opponent makes yoshi easily punishable/an easy target.

It all adds up to a character who sometimes looks unstoppable and sometimes looks like he can't do anything based on which player has the read.

It all kind of evens out, and like a lot of people said, he makes up for it with his punishes

considering he doesn't even have to commit to a full short hop to put out aerials and land immediately (thanks to DJC) I disagree with him even having to commit hard to get rewards. Same for dtilt. Huge potential reward at any percent compared to how much risk it has (it's a quick move to start and end, and gets tech chase at any percent).

 

[Manaconda]

kiiiiiiiiind of why giving him the 2.1 Link/TL GRAB YOU EVEN IF YOU'RE ON MARS attached to a pivot that had less than 0 frames of lag was so silly.
Glad it's gone. Yoshi is a little more normal and a little better-fitting in the game now than ever.

What does this even mean? Is it hyperbole (probably is) or are you trying to say Yoshi could input the grab before the pivot and still pivot grab or something like that?

 

[TheGravyTrain]

It was hyperbole on how good air grab tethers are when combined with their pivot grabs. The real question is, will Oli get to keep his?

 

[steelguttey]

if oli's ability to grab people out of the air gets removed he will have even less players

olimar's whole gameplan is forcing people to throw out an aerial so he can punish it and just missing their landing lag and getting that laggy ass grab animation sounds so infuriating

 

[Nausicaa]

Glad you mentioned Zard, @ TheGravyTrain
Zard could easily be the 6th worst after the 5 I went over up there.
I'd have to contemplate the competition a bit. He's for sure in the tier ABOVE those 5, but it's probably a big Tier, and he'd simply be at the bottom of it somewhere.
Probably in competition with Zelda/ICs/Ganon/Kirby/etc for that spot, after thinking about it for a bit.

Zard is solid. He's got some of those absurd neutral-breakers that he can rely on when in control, while having a few absurd defense-to-offense transition options when not.
He can't zip around a stage at any angle and force the opponent into situations they don't want to be in, but can still do it due to his speed/range.

Opponents aren't threatened in most places + He can get to those places really fast = He's a conditional threat based on positional manipulation and most importantly, COMMITMENTS that have a good mix of rewards from both sides.

He's in a good spot game-play-wise, design-wise, etc, and he's just a touch on the weaker end due to the way things worked out for these recent patches.

Other things...
He's really fitting in the game, so doesn't need anything 'more' or whatever that will change the way he plays.
Minor tweaks in the form of buffs/nerfs to areas of his kit won't break him for better/worse. Any kind of angle/damage/range/etc adjustments to him will be JUST that, minor tweaks that make him SLIGHTLY worse or better.
This is partially due to his game having those things already being heavy-commitments around absurd tools, and partially due to him being already quite solid as he is.

tl;dr I could accept giving him the 6th worst spot, at the bottom of the big tier above those other 5. He could be a lot higher WITHIN that tier, but 6th worst would be fitting too.

Minor buffs (like REALLY minor) would be appropriate, but nothing is really needed for him right now.
Like, if every patch there was 1 single tiny tweak, until he was perfect, that would be fine.
I'd say something like a tiny bit more KBG on F-Tilt or something. See how he's still doing by the time the next patch comes, and go from there.
Maybe give him a 2nd glide the next patch, etc.
But not those 2 things in the same patch.
He's good enough.

What does this even mean? Is it hyperbole (probably is) or are you trying to say Yoshi could input the grab before the pivot and still pivot grab or something like that?

Basically what Gravy said... but to explain.
If you're fighting 2.1 Link or Toon Link, and they're on the main bottom area of Dreamland, and you're in the air ABOVE the top platform of Fountain of Dreams, and they grab, you'll get grabbed.
Literally you can be on a different stage on a different Project M set-up in a different part of the world and they'd still be able to grab you.
*exaggeration but not by much

Yoshi had that, but attached to what was probably the best pivot Grab in the game, being a tether as fast as a normal grab, and on a character that could bait opponents into acting offensively given his commitmentless offensive options, as well as force people into shields due to the threat of touch-of-deaths that his offensive options provide him.
Still has Egglay for the latter one though.
Move is silly

 

[InfinityCollision]

The recovery changes, theory, I hate. If you can DJ armor through them, great? If not? Well... Its kind of like the other side of Ivy (in that its pretty good). It just seems really boring.

Bingo. DJ armor is now (once again?) a magical on/off switch for edgeguarding Yoshi. When it's on, at best you get to influence where he tries to recover to and maybe you get a hit in if he's sloppy about it. Once you pass that magic threshold, it's the same as it's always been and you can go to town. The threshold's lower because of the weight nerf, but still... and the change also breaks some onstage footstool setups.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

The thing with the dj stuff, is I have no idea what I would do differently other then revert it back to the way it was. It at least was a 50/50 unless the Yoshi could air dodge. Now its just kind of boring and meh. I still hold that Yoshi has potential to be amazing. Yoshi has hints of a Ness style high in the air, rapid change in position style with Yoshi's own dj stuff and trades pk fire for a command grab (which deals with shields, something apparently Ness hates). In that style, you can turn around dj back air to catch aggression (either a floaty djc to a plat or a quick one to the ground). Or you can fall and command grab. Or you can change position and fair (safe on shield, good v cc, good dmg and amazing combo opportunity). Ditto for nair. Ditto for dair. Or you can play a dd and dtilt style, a la marth. But its mono spacing, no worries about tippers. And it always sets up tech chases/positional advantage. You can even djl to extend the dd and do a dtilt anywhere (and its easy, and for going forward, rather than pivot junk which is hard and more for when you dash back). Mix in a couple djc nairs and shffl nair and I think Yoshi has a solid neutral. I get the whole "mess up a dj and you are doomed" worry, but more emphasis on dd dtilt stuff should amend that.

@ Nausicaa "Literally you can be on a different stage"
Oh boy, you used the forbidden word... : )
I hate the word "literally" because people suck...

Back to speculating
When I play Zard, I just have no idea how his neutral works. When I get a hit, the fairs, dairs, and tech chases feel great, but I feel incompetent in neutral with him. I can jab bad approaches. I hear some say ftilt is good for pokes. Dtilt seems ok if the are near the ledge in case I get the fire hitbox. Fair is terrible in neutral, bair seems meh, rar nair seems like it could have use, if only sparingly. I guess my biggest issue is I try to play a dd grab style with some jabs, but his awkward limbs get in the way and I don't actually dodge anything. I would give up on him, but he seems cool and apparently he does well v Roy, which as Squirtle I hate. Halp

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Yeah yeah I screenshotted instead of trying to figure out how to save the image, ****ing sue me.

Roughly ordered. Maybe not that rough, I put some thought into it.

Now, you must be wondering: Is Wofl actually that good? The answer is: Probably. There really isn't anyone in the cast he can't **** up. When things go his way they go well. What holds him in check i.m.o is that fact that his setups aren't ironclad, the same ones don't work on everyone, so getting that kill isn't often textbook or flowchart and Wflo has to put in real work to close stocks most times.

Yes, Meat Knight is that good. If he had a more traditional swordie upthrow, like Marth's or even Wurrio's, I'd probably put him above Wlof.

I think S-tier has this general theme of "good things that work in most matches but outside of pretty favorable MUs, closing shop can be hard and so there's a certain degree of volatility".

Plz don't nerf R.o.B enough to move him from the top 10, I like a character like this being this good.

Folac looks like some kind of gatekeeper of S tier or something, but he isn't really. He just kind of busts things open with lasers and pillar combos, making everyone look like chump until he gets tapped offstage. A+ tends to also have good, maybe even overwhelming tools, but then have significant drawbacks [punishability, linear recoveries, limited toolset even if it is a very good toolset.] Floac is really the only one that dominates stage super hard, so he gets to be top of A+ tier and the worst spacie. Sonic and GaW are where there more based on the thread's perceptions than mine, though GaW does seem pretty good. Sonic is just too fast to be any lower.

Contrary to popular belief, Ice Samus isn't complete junk and is even, shockingly, useful. Really great zoning game, edgeguarding game and not even bad CQC abilities. Sammie just doesn't completely overwhelm opponents, and so here in A tier we start seeing people who have to put in more work and start to have MUs that give them real trouble. Ikkay may be a tad too high but I feel like he's around here. Icies here courtesy to Hylian, honestly after seeing some of the things he does it felt insulting to put them lower.

This tier is a combination of untapped, under-explored or just 'requires too much work for the rewards they yield.' I cannot stress how much I feel all these characters need a bit of a touch-up, a bit more focus in their kits, a tad more direction. Except maybe Ivy, who just sits around here and is in a pretty good place i.m.o. I refuse to believe Squirtle is any lower, ditto for Pikachu. I feel you guys on Brolimar, but "mostly even MUs" + "RNG godz please" means he should probably be here.

C tier is more or less "plz fix". Jiggs gets to be at the top for having an actual meta and a kit that has a clear direction. The problem is of course her design is fundamentally stupid. She can edgeguard a fair degree of the game still, but then there's this whole chunk of the cast whom rest just *doesn't happen to* and who she can't legitimately bair out of game. And giving her better rest set-ups on those guys doesn't seem like a plausible solution, either. Honestly, figure out a way to decentralize her from rest, or just give up and accept that Jiggs will be here-ish. I feel like the DT is taking the latter approach.

Sorry Ness players I'm REALLY not seeing mid tier potential

Yoshi could be higher, I'll admit.

RIP fatboyz

 

[DrinkingFood]

Yoshi has hints of a Ness style high in the air, rapid change in position style with Yoshi's own dj stuff and trades pk fire for a command grab (which deals with shields, something apparently Ness hates).

DJC fair is already 0 (or -1 I forget) on shield, it's ridiculously safe for dealing with shields lol

 

[Akhenderson]

Sorry Ness players I'm REALLY not seeing mid tier potential

That's fine. A majority of the top ness players don't either.

 

[FreeGamer]

If Ness had a less-trash recovery, better standing grab range, and/or a better angle for B-Throw, would that put him up to B tier?