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Tier List Speculation

tasteless gentleman

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Fair enough, What if PMDT restored his trajectories (for follow ups) restored power to some moves (KK lost way more than it should have for a small 4 frame speed boost) and gave him some air speed (follow ups to make up for lost range in the air)? Would that at least be a start?

Or maybe give his firebreath some kind of anti projectile ability (he lost his dash attack after all)
 

Tomaster

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Since everyone is posting their opinionated tier lists now and i dont really agree with any of them, i made my own.
It is indeed ordered (left is better) but it is not exact.. And notice how there's no E tier.
also i'm sorry for having the fatty syndrome :/

 
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LupinX

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Since everyone is posting their opinionated tier lists now and i dont really agree with any of them, i made my own.
It is indeed ordered (left is better) but it is not exact.. And notice how there's no E tier.
also i'm sorry for having the fatty syndrome :/

I wouldn't really agree on Sonic being A, low B at most. And Snake isn't as good as people claim...
 

didds

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What happened with yoshi, a character who was often put as a high tier is now being put in the second lowest tier on like every list I see.

Is this just people learning the mu or did something happen in 3.6 that I haven't noticed that lowered his placement immensely.

If we're taking mu spreads seriously I'd argue he has to be higher purely based on his mu's with the other perceived good characters. He doesn't necessarily beat characters like Roy and spacies but he still has a better tool kit to handle them then say.. Ganon or ivy.
 

Idostuff

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What happened with yoshi, a character who was often put as a high tier is now being put in the second lowest tier on like every list I see.

Is this just people learning the mu or did something happen in 3.6 that I haven't noticed that lowered his placement immensely.
Well if you look at the change log, you will see that he lost a good amount of things. His weight was reduced. Which is way more important for Yoshi since it means that his DJ armor breaks earlier now. That combined with egg roll no longer gaining any height means his recovery got hit pretty hard. Although no longer being able to be foot stooled out of DJ is a nice buff.

Also his grab was changed to behave like other tether grabs in that he now can't grab opponents out of the air. This caused him to lose many regrab follow ups off throws and combos.

The grab parry thing was also removed from his shield, and while I think that was dumb and deserves to be gone, it's still a nerf. His down air dmg was reduced, also not that big of a deal, but still a nerf.

Overall, Yoshi is significant worse this patch.
 
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Damp

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What happened with yoshi, a character who was often put as a high tier is now being put in the second lowest tier on like every list I see.

Is this just people learning the mu or did something happen in 3.6 that I haven't noticed that lowered his placement immensely.

If we're taking mu spreads seriously I'd argue he has to be higher purely based on his mu's with the other perceived good characters. He doesn't necessarily beat characters like Roy and spacies but he still has a better tool kit to handle them then say.. Ganon or ivy.
Yoshi's recovery and grab game got severely nerfed. PMDT tried to make him more like melee Yoshi, without realizing that his increased hurtbox size and floatiness does not work with his melee kit. He also lost a lot of his KO ability on floaties with the decreased knock back on up air, and the DI multiplier on down B. Yoshi's shield also has many problems, such as being able to be poked from below, and getting stuck in shield for a full roll animation if you roll and hold shield past the actual roll. Parry was also removed and replaced with something that doesn't really do anything at all. Overall, Yoshi is definitely near the bottom of the cast this patch. They were unwarranted changes.
 

Kipcom

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What happened with yoshi, a character who was often put as a high tier is now being put in the second lowest tier on like every list I see.

Is this just people learning the mu or did something happen in 3.6 that I haven't noticed that lowered his placement immensely.

If we're taking mu spreads seriously I'd argue he has to be higher purely based on his mu's with the other perceived good characters. He doesn't necessarily beat characters like Roy and spacies but he still has a better tool kit to handle them then say.. Ganon or ivy.
- They basically nullified egg roll as a recovery (though I have a lot of experience fighting both PM and Melee Yoshi, and honestly Yoshi doesn't need a good Egg Roll to recover anyway)
- They changed how his grab operates. Basically if you jump at Yoshi, he can't grab you unless its with the first 2 frames of his grab, or unless you land on the ground and meet with the grounded grab box. This makes baiting approaches with Pivot Grab more of a risk (even if his pivot grab in 3.5 was stupid)
- You can DI the pop up hit on Yoshi's grounded Down B so that the 2nd hit misses you. Granted the move is still really fast anyway, so it's not something you'll react to moreso than just anticipating it.

- Yoshi sometimes gets stuck in his shield for extra frames when rolling. Additionally, he's stuck in shield for like the first 6-7 frames (he actually can't jump out until those 6-7 frames pass)
- His double jump properties are different from Melee in some way. You can't use Edge Cancelled Eggs in PM like you can in Melee because Yoshi floats more in PM (which is actually pretty stupid and needs to be changed)
- Up air is actually a huge change. A move that would easily kill me at like 110-120 now kills me at like 140. I assume it's easier to combo with at low percent, so I guess that's supposed to be the tradeoff?


TBH, the biggest change to Yoshi in 3.6 is the grab nerf. Yoshi got a lot of of pivot grabs and actually had some good followups off of Dthrow (and he had some chaingrabs on characters that may or may not work as of 3.6b).

Yoshi opinions are a mixed bag it seems. I see some Yoshi mains saying he's bad. I see some Yoshi mains saying he's fine. From my own experience of fighting Yoshi, I'd say he's fine, but still not that great. He's still got a really good punish game, good movement, a tricky recovery, and he has the privilege of doing literally any move out of shield due to his Double Jump (a trait only shared with Peach).


Also PMDT should REALLY fix Yoshi's shield. The character is NOT supposed to be shield pokable, but for some reason there's a small area in which you can hit his shield from below and potentially shield poke him.
 
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Binary Clone

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Since everyone is posting their opinionated tier lists now and i dont really agree with any of them, i made my own.
It is indeed ordered (left is better) but it is not exact.. And notice how there's no E tier.
also i'm sorry for having the fatty syndrome :/

As others have said, there's no way Snake is top of A tier. He's overrated in the first place, but he also struggles with a good few very common high-tier MUs like Marth and Falcon. Those two, for example, are faster, have better range, and can both easily spike/meteor through their recovery while trading with cypher to make it simple for them to get back to the stage.

Jigglypuff isn't good, but I really, really don't think she's the worst character the game, under Bowser. DK shouldn't be 2nd to last either, since he can punish much better than the other bottom-tier fatties.

I also don't think Mario and Luigi are better than some of B tier. I think Roy tends to perform better than them, overall.

Sonic is also not A tier. He's fast and weird to deal with, but just about everything he has is negatively disjointed, his recovery is fairly easy to deal with and doesn't really sweetspot, and he loses pretty hard to disjoints and long lasting hitboxes, I think. He's good, just not on par with the rest of A tier.
 

Downdraft

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As others have said, there's no way Snake is top of A tier. He's overrated in the first place, but he also struggles with a good few very common high-tier MUs like Marth and Falcon. Those two, for example, are faster, have better range, and can both easily spike/meteor through their recovery while trading with cypher to make it simple for them to get back to the stage.

Jigglypuff isn't good, but I really, really don't think she's the worst character the game, under Bowser. DK shouldn't be 2nd to last either, since he can punish much better than the other bottom-tier fatties.

I also don't think Mario and Luigi are better than some of B tier. I think Roy tends to perform better than them, overall.

Sonic is also not A tier. He's fast and weird to deal with, but just about everything he has is negatively disjointed, his recovery is fairly easy to deal with and doesn't really sweetspot, and he loses pretty hard to disjoints and long lasting hitboxes, I think. He's good, just not on par with the rest of A tier.
What do people think about G&W at #2? I'm inexperienced with the matchup, but I did review his frame data a few pages back and have seen the character in action.
 

Binary Clone

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What do people think about G&W at #2? I'm inexperienced with the matchup, but I did review his frame data a few pages back and have seen the character in action.
I'd say GnW at #2 is a pretty substantial exaggeration. He's good, and he very much does have some silly tools, but he's still one of the easiest characters in the game to kill. He has very good juggles, Judgement can be stupid, and he edgeguards pretty well, but if you know the matchup and the hitboxes behind his stupidly nonrepresentative animations, he is much less overwhelming than spacies, in my opinion.

I think he still loses to some important higher tier MUs like Falcon and Fox and probably Marth, though I may be wrong on that, which means it's hard to place him in 2nd. High A, maybe, but not the 2nd best in the game.
 

Frost | Odds

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What happened with yoshi, a character who was often put as a high tier is now being put in the second lowest tier on like every list I see.

Is this just people learning the mu or did something happen in 3.6 that I haven't noticed that lowered his placement immensely.

If we're taking mu spreads seriously I'd argue he has to be higher purely based on his mu's with the other perceived good characters. He doesn't necessarily beat characters like Roy and spacies but he still has a better tool kit to handle them then say.. Ganon or ivy.
I used to think extremely highly of Yoshi, but at the moment I'm frustrated with my inability to make him work, despite how theoretically strong he is. I'm not totally sure what to make of it.

@Whoever was thinking I was underrating Zard - he's just too unreliable and has too many terrible, terrible matchups to be above low tier. The size of his hurtbox and the clunkiness of his kit make him extremely awkward to play in any MU where projectiles are a large factor. I'm actually having a bit of a character crisis atm, not sure who to secondary because Zard is really terrible at covering Bowser's bad MUs.

I'm tempted by Lucario, but because I have no spring in my left trigger, i won't be able to ASC properly. Kirby sucks, Diddy has unfavorable interactions with C-stick-attack, Yoshi dies sooo easily if you make just one little mistake, and my tech is extremely unreliable.

augh
 
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didds

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Ah I keep forgetting about weight and grab nerfs, definitely hurt him the most of all the nerfs he received.

It's been awhile since I did yoshi stuff, I'd be happy just having his grab reverted, he's not exactly so ridiculous that he doesn't deserve it and I liked the marth-esque dd grab game that was special to pm yoshi. The uair nerf also makes dthrow to uair less absurd and even if its a good follow up, who cares, some characters can have guaranteed follow ups and a goofball like yoshi ain't a bad candidate for that position.
 

ZGE

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What do people think about G&W at #2? I'm inexperienced with the matchup, but I did review his frame data a few pages back and have seen the character in action.
I have a Game and Watch secondary, so take what you will from this... I pretty much agree with Binary Clone. His offensive kit is absurd and having a frame 3 escape option is nice, but despite his light weight he gets combo'd pretty decently. He loses to spacies and IMO loses to Fire Emblem characters, but he has a lot of favorable matchups (I'd say Falcon is even to be honest).

I used to think he was top 5, but he's definitely top 10.
 

Tomaster

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As others have said, there's no way Snake is top of A tier. He's overrated in the first place, but he also struggles with a good few very common high-tier MUs like Marth and Falcon. Those two, for example, are faster, have better range, and can both easily spike/meteor through their recovery while trading with cypher to make it simple for them to get back to the stage.

Jigglypuff isn't good, but I really, really don't think she's the worst character the game, under Bowser. DK shouldn't be 2nd to last either, since he can punish much better than the other bottom-tier fatties.

I also don't think Mario and Luigi are better than some of B tier. I think Roy tends to perform better than them, overall.

Sonic is also not A tier. He's fast and weird to deal with, but just about everything he has is negatively disjointed, his recovery is fairly easy to deal with and doesn't really sweetspot, and he loses pretty hard to disjoints and long lasting hitboxes, I think. He's good, just not on par with the rest of A tier.
Sonic could be different, i don't have that much knowledge about him. Some of these were just rough estimates.
I definitely think snake and jiggs are in the right place tho.
 
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Binary Clone

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That is what I believe... I don't expect people to agree on everything..
Well, yes, but that's what this thread is for. It's a discussion. You don't expect people to agree, yes, but you should also expect people to tell you what they disagree with and why, which is what I'm doing.

If you want to defend your placements, that's fine, and encouraged, so long as you have some sort of reasoning behind it. GnW at #2 was another placement I thought was questionable, and elaborated on my reasoning above. It's about the discussion of placements, which is part of disagreeing. I'm not saying that I'm right and you're wrong. I'm saying that I disagree, which is different, because there are different ways of thinking about this kind of thing, and certainly things that I haven't considered in the placements. So we discuss, so that we can learn more about the why of the placements and make better informed decisions about them.
 

TheoryofSmaug

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I used to think extremely highly of Yoshi, but at the moment I'm frustrated with my inability to make him work, despite how theoretically strong he is. I'm not totally sure what to make of it.

@Whoever was thinking I was underrating Zard - he's just too unreliable and has too many terrible, terrible matchups to be above low tier. The size of his hurtbox and the clunkiness of his kit make him extremely awkward to play in any MU where projectiles are a large factor. I'm actually having a bit of a character crisis atm, not sure who to secondary because Zard is really terrible at covering Bowser's bad MUs.

I'm tempted by Lucario, but because I have no spring in my left trigger, i won't be able to ASC properly. Kirby sucks, Diddy has unfavorable interactions with C-stick-attack, Yoshi dies sooo easily if you make just one little mistake, and my tech is extremely unreliable.

augh
What about MK? His matchup spread is nuts and actually works really well with Bowser. MK's worst matchups, Roy and Samus, are characters that even 3.6 Bowser does pretty well against.

MK plays well with CStick attack, and his gameplay is heavily fundamentally based, so he is pretty easy to pick up, just learn the how his strings and moves work.

I picked up MK after Bowser nerfs, I have Bowser as a secondary for now, and when/if he gets buffed to playability I will knock MK back to secondary.
 

Searing_Sorrow

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Someone asked me if donkey kong is better than bowser, I said yes for sure, but i never had a really good answer. Can donkey approach better somehow? Or is all this based off of damage output or punish aiblity?
Donkey Kong has a better dd, better punish game out of throws, and better approaches between low to the ground nair, spaced Bair, and an overall better tilt game. It's generally easy to say big characters are neutered please buff, but I honestly feel like if dk was made better, he would be kind of toxic like Marth, and act as a gatekeeper dismissing the viability of other characters.
To speak on the placings of the "low tier":

Charizard is legit good, arguments can be made about big character syndrome, but the fast ground speed and great spacing tools that combo every weight work better than is given credit for.

Jiggs- go play Hungrybox for 1 hour thinking she is worse than pit bowser or Yoshi when nothing has changed from melee for her.

The last mainly accepted low tier being DDD... Edge guard the character can still anti camp and force approaches with waddles, and saying dair being made worse "destroyed" the character is like saying diddy's up smash nerf ruined the character. Yes it's a nerf that hurts, but in competitive play, even with that dair, being under an opponent still was not an advantageous position(so not multitier dropping relevant). Still like the antimeta penguin over current yoshi, bowser, pit, kirby, and (with bad rng tryhardimar)
 
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Tomaster

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Well, yes, but that's what this thread is for. It's a discussion. You don't expect people to agree, yes, but you should also expect people to tell you what they disagree with and why, which is what I'm doing.

If you want to defend your placements, that's fine, and encouraged, so long as you have some sort of reasoning behind it. GnW at #2 was another placement I thought was questionable, and elaborated on my reasoning above. It's about the discussion of placements, which is part of disagreeing. I'm not saying that I'm right and you're wrong. I'm saying that I disagree, which is different, because there are different ways of thinking about this kind of thing, and certainly things that I haven't considered in the placements. So we discuss, so that we can learn more about the why of the placements and make better informed decisions about them.
You replied before i could edit.. I looked back at what I wrote and realized it wasn't what I meant.

And about G&W. I'll name his strengths first: really easy to play (which also makes him reliable imo), good recovery, active hitboxes on most of his moves, insane combo game, good anti projectile tools, he has projectiles himself, insanely good kill potential, can act out of his recovery, and great edgeguarding. His weaknesses: floaty, active hitboxes can be punishable (even tho the animations make it tricky to know when the move is done), and his on shield attacks are risky. I may have missed a few but that's basically it. The strengths waaay outdo the weaknesses imo, I can't think of any character that has such good tools other than fox. Sure, some characters may have more potential theoretically (like falco, rob, and other) but practically no one has pushed that potential far enough to be considered.
 
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Ripple

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The last mainly accepted low tier being DDD... Edge guard the character can still anti camp and force approaches with waddles, and saying dair being made worse "destroyed" the character is like saying diddy's up smash nerf ruined the character. Yes it's a nerf that hurts, but in competitive play, even with that dair, being under an opponent still was not an advantageous position(so not multitier dropping relevant). Still like the antimeta penguin over current yoshi, bowser, pit, kirby, and (with bad rng tryhardimar)
I didn't realize that diddy relied on up-smash in the neutral AND as the basis of his punish game.

like I said before, the move starts up so much slower, can be escaped easier, doesn't have as much range, can't combo at low % anymore, and now all the final hit has an angle of 70 which means if you hold away during the last hit, our mobility makes it very difficult to follow up.

saying the move wasn't murdered means you didn't understand how useful it was and how the nerfs affected his punishes

DDD was never super good anyway, He was lower mid. if you watch any of my videos you can see I'm just extremely good at mix ups and punishing people coming after me. when people weren't getting caught with my landing mix ups or jumping after me, my character was struggling with everything. i.e. me vs. Junebug
 
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Binary Clone

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You replied before i could edit.. I looked back at what I wrote and realized it wasn't what I meant.
I definitely think snake and jiggs are in the right place tho.
Okay then, why do you think Snake and Jiggs are in the right place? You haven't really provided any counterargument. Jiggs is unchanged from Melee, which means she performs decently against many of the Melee top tiers that still populate much of the PM high tier and popular meta today. Though she has more challenging or bad MUs than in Melee, she still doesn't have enough negative MUs to justify being at the absolute bottom, especially in comparison to Bowser.
 

Searing_Sorrow

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You don't realize how broken 3.02 diddy up smash was lol it sucked you in and combed into air side b regrab. The move was essentially safe free shield pressure that created huge combos... so falco shine with more damage. I am referring to the extremist saying ddd is a waste of a character slot. wasn't too much of an issue playing against dair as a neutral spacing tool since the opportunity for ddd to choose dair as an option was rarely a good one considering my character choices. It's just after reading your proposed buffs page, some seemed like great options to improve the character in subtle ways, While other choices such as inhale strength going to 40-60 would just create a salt mine. The move at 50 has traded and pulled me in from under and behind ddd, and because grab armor starts at the suction, characters like sonic and Wario could only at best trade with the command grab on a ddd near the ledge. after (I hope at least) it is fixed to be in line with the reward of other command grabs, and dair being made better than now (but worse than 3.5 for consistency with other low risk multi hit moves) ddd should be fine with minor defensive buffs to match the cast, slightly faster forward smash, and a faster jump squat.
 
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Tomaster

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Okay then, why do you think Snake and Jiggs are in the right place? You haven't really provided any counterargument. Jiggs is unchanged from Melee, which means she performs decently against many of the Melee top tiers that still populate much of the PM high tier and popular meta today. Though she has more challenging or bad MUs than in Melee, she still doesn't have enough negative MUs to justify being at the absolute bottom, especially in comparison to Bowser.
Jiggs: she was good in melee, and she still Mostly has the same matchups vs the melee top tiers that she did before. However, with the addition of the 30 or so more viable characters, her matchup spread is much worse than it was in melee. Recoveries are harder to edgeguard, characters have better combo breakers against her, and overall she became less viable with the new matchups. Here is why I think she's worse than bowser: firstly, she dies so fast. She may be harder to combo than bowser but she dies so quickly that you don't need to get much damage on her to end the stock. Secondly, most of her kills result in trades, since her main kill move is the rest, and a good punish can end her stock for it if she's at 30-40%. Her edgeguarding killing abilities don't work as well as they did in melee, because she can't edgeguard the new cast as well. Lastly, she has more polarized matchups that bowser, meaning it's easy to counterpick her and invalidate her. Bowser's matchups are more balanced, even though he loses most of them.

Snake: just like what i said about G&W, he just has all the tools. Good recovery, great killing potential, good punish game, good shield pressure, good tech chases, good edgeguarding, projectiles, trap setups, and loads of options. Plus I just feel that he's really good from playing against him and watching people get results with him.
 
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Binary Clone

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And about G&W. I'll name his strengths first: really easy to play (which also makes him reliable imo), good recovery, active hitboxes on most of his moves, insane combo game, good anti projectile tools, he has projectiles himself, insanely good kill potential, can act out of his recovery, and great edgeguarding. His weaknesses: floaty, active hitboxes can be punishable (even tho the animations make it tricky to know when the move is done), and his on shield attacks are risky. I may have missed a few but that's basically it. The strengths waaay outdo the weaknesses imo, I can't think of any character that has such good tools other than fox. Sure, some characters may have more potential theoretically (like falco, rob, and other) but practically no one has pushed that potential far enough to be considered.
I think it's kind of odd that you say no one has pushed that potential far enough to be considered when we have what is essentially Melee Falco on the list, alongside players like DF and Oracle playing ROB at high levels. GnW has not been pushed farther than ROB or Falco. There are similar numbers pushing GnW and ROB forward, and Falco has years of development by some of the best smash players ever.

I'm also not really sure what you mean by "active hitboxes on most of his moves," since... uhh, I'm pretty sure most moves have hitboxes on them.

You're also heavily exaggerating many of his strengths. His combo game starts to lose potency at the high level with consistent SDI (ask @Lunchables). His anti-projectile tools ("tools"? you mean the one, bucket?) are slow and so committed that it typically isn't hugely useful in high level play where these projectiles are often being used to approach, so he would be punished for using bucket. His projectiles don't do a ton to control neutral and can be unreliable to to their random element, mostly are just to tack on a bit of extra damage during combos.

Meanwhile, you're downplaying his weaknesses. He is not just floaty. He floaty, and the lightest character one of the lightest characters in the game, meaning he is also one of the easiest to KO. Falcon can just dthrow knee and kill him outright at ludicrously low percents. He loses important MUs in the meta like Fox and against sword characters. Granted, he is a good character, but there is little to justify such a dramatically high placement.

Jiggs: she was good in melee, and she still Mostly has the same matchups vs the melee top tiers that she did before. However, with the addition of the 30 or so more viable characters, her matchup spread is much worse than it was in melee. Recoveries are harder to edgeguard, characters have better combo breakers against her, and overall she became less viable with the new matchups. Here is why I think she's worse than bowser: firstly, she dies so fast. She may be harder to combo than bowser but she dies so quickly that you don't need to get much damage on her to end the stock. Secondly, most of her kills result in trades, since her main kill move is the rest, and a good punish can end her stock for it if she's at 30-40%. Her edgeguarding killing abilities don't work as well as they did in melee, because she can't edgeguard the new cast as well. Lastly, she has more polarized matchups that bowser, meaning it's easy to counterpick her and invalidate her. Bowser's matchups are more balanced, even though he loses most of them.

Snake: just like what i said about G&W, he just has all the tools. Good recovery, great killing potential, good punish game, good shield pressure, good tech chases, good edgeguarding, projectiles, trap setups, and loads of options. Plus I just feel that he's really good from playing against him and watching people get results with him.
I'm sorry, but there's no way that Jiggs has more polarizing MUs than Bowser's. Bowser loses to anyone with a decent grab game. Popo playing solo can chaingrab him to like 60. There are plenty of characters that pretty much invalidate Bowser, and they are common characters, too. Jiggs has decent or positive matchups with a good handful of high-tier characters like Marth and Roy. She is still very good at edgeguarding, contrary to what some people seem to think. To say most of her kills result in trades is also an exaggeration, since it's more likely that most puff kills are coming from edgeguards and not rest KOs, especially because of how punishable rest can be. It is also an exaggeration to say that she will die off of a rest at 30-40%. It's possible, sure, but would be far from consistent if the Jiggs has any idea how to DI. Even Melee Fox doesn't have a guaranteed kill on puff after a rest at that percent, but that's the range where it starts to become dangerous for her. Puff certainly struggles in PM, but there's no way she's the worst character in the game right now.

Regarding Snake: you're pretty much ignoring what I said on the topic. He has decent kill potential and a good punish game, yes, but I don't really think his shield pressure is anything to write home about. I don't think he has much of anything that is actually safe on shield, but correct me if I'm wrong. Snake's main issue is that he still takes time to set up those traps and options, and many of them can be used against him. He has few options to deal with pressure or combos himself that don't leave him fairly open, and his recovery actually isn't that good. I think it's a common misconception that he has a very good recovery. Sure, he can extend it by damaging himself, but cypher is incredibly slow and predictable. Marth and Falcon both, who are very, very commonly played and are high tiers, can simply dair straight through his cypher and immediately doom him. Snake is good, but he does not deserve to be the top of A tier.
 
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Tomaster

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I think it's kind of odd that you say no one has pushed that potential far enough to be considered when we have what is essentially Melee Falco on the list, alongside players like DF and Oracle playing ROB at high levels. GnW has not been pushed farther than ROB or Falco. There are similar numbers pushing GnW and ROB forward, and Falco has years of development by some of the best smash players ever.

I'm also not really sure what you mean by "active hitboxes on most of his moves," since... uhh, I'm pretty sure most moves have hitboxes on them.

You're also heavily exaggerating many of his strengths. His combo game starts to lose potency at the high level with consistent SDI (ask @Lunchables). His anti-projectile tools ("tools"? you mean the one, bucket?) are slow and so committed that it typically isn't hugely useful in high level play where these projectiles are often being used to approach, so he would be punished for using bucket. His projectiles don't do a ton to control neutral and can be unreliable to to their random element, mostly are just to tack on a bit of extra damage during combos.

Meanwhile, you're downplaying his weaknesses. He is not just floaty. He floaty, and the lightest character in the game, meaning he is also one of the easiest to KO. Falcon can just dthrow knee and kill him outright at ludicrously low percents. He loses important MUs in the meta like Fox and against sword characters. Granted, he is a good character, but there is little to justify such a dramatically high placement.



I'm sorry, but there's no way that Jiggs has more polarizing MUs than Bowser's. Bowser loses to anyone with a decent grab game. Popo playing solo can chaingrab him to like 60. There are plenty of characters that pretty much invalidate Bowser, and they are common characters, too. Jiggs has decent or positive matchups with a good handful of high-tier characters like Marth and Roy. She is still very good at edgeguarding, contrary to what some people seem to think. To say most of her kills result in trades is also an exaggeration, since it's more likely that most puff kills are coming from edgeguards and not rest KOs, especially because of how punishable rest can be. It is also an exaggeration to say that she will die off of a rest at 30-40%. It's possible, sure, but would be far from consistent if the Jiggs has any idea how to DI. Even Melee Fox doesn't have a guaranteed kill on puff after a rest at that percent, but that's the range where it starts to become dangerous for her. Puff certainly struggles in PM, but there's no way she's the worst character in the game right now.

Regarding Snake: you're pretty much ignoring what I said on the topic. He has decent kill potential and a good punish game, yes, but I don't really think his shield pressure is anything to write home about. I don't think he has much of anything that is actually safe on shield, but correct me if I'm wrong. Snake's main issue is that he still takes time to set up those traps and options, and many of them can be used against him. He has few options to deal with pressure or combos himself that don't leave him fairly open, and his recovery actually isn't that good. I think it's a common misconception that he has a very good recovery. Sure, he can extend it by damaging himself, but cypher is incredibly slow and predictable. Marth and Falcon both, who are very, very commonly played and are high tiers, can simply dair straight through his cypher and immediately doom him. Snake is good, but he does not deserve to be the top of A tier.
See this is why I didn't really want to to start a "discussion". Not only do most of them lead to arguements on here and make people aggressive, but it's also gonna get us nowhere. Im gonna write something, you're gonna look for ways to counter it, im gonna look for ways to counter your arguement, etc. im sorry I ever posted that damn tier list. Just wanted to put my opinion out there.

And don't think that im writing this because i have no "comeback". I just don't feel like dragging out this "discussion". You're not gonna change your mind and im not gonna change mine...
 
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Strong Badam

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Spent like 10 minz making a tier list, don't have any motivation rn to elaborate.


Tried to make it obvious in the image but C-Tier is unordered (alphabetical).

S-tier is much bigger in this patch IMO, but may split into two tiers later down the line. Outcome is uncertain.
 

tasteless gentleman

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Probabaly due to the lack of Oli mains, same could be said for Icies this patch
IC Are vicious, they chain grab to outrageous percents and 0 to death anyone bigger than marth and strong bad i really really really question the seriousness of that list.... does pmdt ever plan on getting everyone on foxes level?
 
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Rᴏb

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G&W isn't the lightest character in the game, Jigglypuff, MK and Kirby are all lighter than him.
 

TheGravyTrain

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Odds liked my post, does that mean he is going to main Squirtle? Cuz that would make me so happy. I've seen all the Tech Odds' implements with Bowser, imagine what he could do with Squirtle. Then again, going from the largest character (and one of the slowest) to the smallest character (and one of the fastest) is prolly a stretch...
 
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