Tier List Speculation

[Ripple]

I do not acept that bowser and DDD and within the same tier of viability of someone like pikachu and squirtle.

and I definitely refuse to believe that pit is in A tier when his multi hit moves don't link properly even when no SDI is used.

 

[steelguttey]

please for the love of ****ing god stop putting olimar at the bottom of tier lists this isnt 3.5 anymore you cant just throw him there

sadly, its also extremely hard to put olimar on a tier list because his matchup spread is so ****in weird. if he gets the perfect line up every single time he plucks a pikmin that means all of his matchups get a whole lot better and he becomes a tier but on the other side if you get none of the right lineups he is probably somewhere around c tier so please just put him in the goddamn middle

most importantly, none of this matters because im obviously never gonna get the perfect or worst lineup every match

**** rng it makes everything harder

 

[Strong Badam]

please for the love of ****ing god stop putting olimar at the bottom of tier lists this isnt 3.5 anymore you cant just throw him there

sadly, its also extremely hard to put olimar on a tier list because his matchup spread is so ****in weird. if he gets the perfect line up every single time he plucks a pikmin that means all of his matchups get a whole lot better and he becomes a tier but on the other side if you get none of the right lineups he is probably somewhere around c tier so please just put him in the goddamn middle

most importantly, none of this matters because im obviously never gonna get the perfect or worst lineup every match

**** rng it makes everything harder

yeah IDK Olimar is pretty good, just dunno how good yet. I could easily see him in B tier for sure.

 

[AceGamer]

. does pmdt ever plan on getting everyone on foxes level?

That was 3.02 lol

 

[Binary Clone]

I think Oli is going to be another glass cannon-ish character, with his not-so-great recovery and relative fragility. But he hits hard, and it seems like he has some pretty good neutral tools. I think it really is a matter of the residual thinking of "Olimar doesn't work and is trash" from when his recovery didn't quite work at all sometimes. But we haven't seen many Olimar players making waves yet.

 

[InfinityCollision]

G&W isn't the lightest character in the game, Jigglypuff, MK and Kirby are all lighter than him.

MK's weight was buffed to 79 in 3.6beta.

I have a hard time seeing ICs as a true mid tier right now because they still fold hard to certain forms of counterplay. Blame their physics, blame Nana's fragility and the extent to which they depend on having both climbers active to be a true force. The PMDT's done a great job with them, but it's a challenging design to balance properly.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

That was 3.02 lol

Fox got nerfed though too (albeit not as much as others) and yet hes still stomping around in the S tier, mean while bowser was hanging at the C tier and almost there and then he got a bomb dropped on his kit (same with others, pit 3.5 is the more recent nerf i can remember that was about on bowser levels of nerfage)

 

[InfinityCollision]

Not all nerfs are created equal. There's a very big difference between simply making a tool slightly less good and significantly changing the things that made it good in the first place, especially when you're also comparing one character with an endless array of options (Fox) to one who previously got by on a handful of strong tools (Bowser).

 

[dirtboy345]

Spent like 10 minz making a tier list, don't have any motivation rn to elaborate.

Tried to make it obvious in the image but C-Tier is unordered (alphabetical).

S-tier is much bigger in this patch IMO, but may split into two tiers later down the line. Outcome is uncertain.

Bottom tier boys

 

[Damp]

Strongbad thinks Yoshi is better than DK, Kirby, Ness, Squirtle, Zelda, and on the same tier as GnW and Luigi.... My lord. This explains everything.

 

[CORY]

Strongbad thinks Yoshi is better than DK, Kirby, Ness, Squirtle, Zelda, and on the same tier as GnW and Luigi.... My lord. This explains everything.

Implying that everything that occurs within development is entirely under his control?

Or just a subpar joke?

The world may never know...

 

[The_NZA]

I sitll don't understand why its hard to find a Yoshi that knows how to DJC well.

 

[Damp]

I sitll don't understand why its hard to find a Yoshi that knows how to DJC well.

nyle pls. You've watched me play plenty of times. All I do is djc

 

[Rᴏb]

S tier: The cream of the crop. Few weaknesses, many strengths. They have mostly positive matchup spreads with very few even matchups and even fewer negative ones. These characters could use a few nerfs.

A tier: Very strong. These characters can compete with the entire cast and have mostly positive matchup spreads, but not to the extent of the S tier. They have more even and negative matchups than the S tier. With the exception of Sheilda, these characters don't need anything changed about them (maybe tink too)

B tier: Strong. These characters have mostly even matchup spreads with more positive matchups than negative ones. For the most part, these characters are perfect with a few outliers having some questionable design choices that should be addressed, and some that *could* be addressed, but don't really need to be imo.

C tier: Solid. They have a good amount of even matchups, but have more negative matchups than positive ones. These characters could use a few stray buffs and some of them could use some normalization (the way Olimar's pikmin work should be completely changed, I've seen some good ideas).

D tier: Flawed characters. These characters have mostly negative matchups with few even ones and even fewer positive ones. These characters need core elements of their kits redesigned.

did i do good?

Spoiler: text version

S tier: Fox, Wolf, Falco, MK, ROB, Lucario
A tier: Tink, Roy, Diddy, Samus, Marth, Falcon, Sheilda, Lucas, Mewtwo, Ike
B tier: Wario, Peach, ZSS, Snake, Mario, G&W, Luigi, ICs, Link, Pikachu
C tier: Ivysaur, Squirtle, Olimar, Sonic, Charizard, Pit, Yoshi, Ganondorf, Ness
D tier: Kirby, Dedede, Jigglypuff, DK, Bowser

 

[The_NZA]

nyle pls. You've watched me play plenty of times. All I do is djc

I don't think I see you DJC that much. I don't understand how a character with a good dash dance, strong DJC game, better DJC weave ability than even Ness, the ability to turn around within his double jumps, a fantastic sex kick, and a reliable projectile that can force an approach as long as he's not playing another projectile user has what we would describe as "no neutral".

He has mixups, a sick utilt, really good smash attacks and tilts in general. Even a comand grab. Does no longer being able to chain grab a large portion of the cast actually make him bad now?

Idk, just ignore me. I haven't played against that much Yoshi. As someone hwo uses DJC a lot, I see a lot of potential in that character still.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I know how to make Yoshi uber tier... No fox to speak of... 3.02 Dair plz... Don't hurt me...

What do you all think of the current dair? It racks absurd amount of damage if you can land some decent hits. It might even start comboing into jabs at higher percents.

 

[steelguttey]

(the way Olimar's pikmin work should be completely changed, I've seen some good ideas)

please no

 

[Damp]

I know how to make Yoshi uber tier... No fox to speak of... 3.02 Dair plz... Don't hurt me...

What do you all think of the current dair? It racks absurd amount of damage if you can land some decent hits. It might even start comboing into jabs at higher percents.

Downair is pretty useless except for at high percents. It doesn't give enough hitstun to combo into jab unless your opponent is sleeping.

I don't think I see you DJC that much. I don't understand how a character with a good dash dance, strong DJC game, better DJC weave ability than even Ness, the ability to turn around within his double jumps, a fantastic sex kick, and a reliable projectile that can force an approach as long as he's not playing another projectile user has what we would describe as "no neutral".

He has mixups, a sick utilt, really good smash attacks and tilts in general. Even a comand grab. Does no longer being able to chain grab a large portion of the cast actually make him bad now?

Idk, just ignore me. I haven't played against that much Yoshi. As someone hwo uses DJC a lot, I see a lot of potential in that character still.

My neutral is literally doing djc every chance I get. Also, projectile isn't reliable at all, the animation is like 100000 frames.

 

[Rᴏb]

please no

i feel like it's the one thing holding the character back. since the pikmin he plucks are random, he cant have a consistently good line up, which is why it's so hard for people to see the character as anything more than 'okay'

someone in this thread posted a really good idea for how his pluck & pikmin should work, i wish i could remember the post...

 

[Shokio]

I think Oli is going to be another glass cannon-ish character, with his not-so-great recovery and relative fragility. But he hits hard, and it seems like he has some pretty good neutral tools. I think it really is a matter of the residual thinking of "Olimar doesn't work and is trash" from when his recovery didn't quite work at all sometimes. But we haven't seen many Olimar players making waves yet.

Yeah, it's just 3.5 syndrome. I think for most people, they just can't shake the "Olimar is s***" feeling out of their systems. Literally both times I played Oracle in 3.6 with Olimar, he's BARELY won and he still refuses to admit he's a good character xD.

 

[Electric Tuba]

Downair is pretty useless except for at high percents. It doesn't give enough hitstun to combo into jab unless your opponent is sleeping.

Yoshi's Dair combos into downsmash past 80% ish. At lower percents it can still cover every platform tech option (jump through middle and drift) and do up to 41%... that's pretty good.

 

[Narelex]

Yeah, it's just 3.5 syndrome. I think for most people, they just can't shake the "Olimar is s***" feeling out of their systems. Literally both times I played Oracle in 3.6 with Olimar, he's BARELY won and he still refuses to admit he's a good character xD.

The RNG on Pikmin, a few polarized MU's and his pretty bad recovery are pretty much the only things wrong with him.

His onstage game is terrifying.

 

[Downdraft]

S tier: The cream of the crop. Few weaknesses, many strengths. They have mostly positive matchup spreads with very few even matchups and even fewer negative ones. These characters could use a few nerfs.

A tier: Very strong. These characters can compete with the entire cast and have mostly positive matchup spreads, but not to the extent of the S tier. They have more even and negative matchups than the S tier. With the exception of Sheilda, these characters don't need anything changed about them.

B tier: Strong. These characters have mostly even matchup spreads with more positive matchups than negative ones. For the most part, these characters are perfect with a few outliers having some questionable design choices that should be addressed, and some that *could* be addressed, but don't really need to be imo.

C tier: Solid. They have a good amount of even matchups, but have more negative matchups than positive ones. These characters could use a few stray buffs and some of them could use some normalization (the way Olimar's pikmin work should be completely changed, I've seen some good ideas).

D tier: Flawed characters. These characters have mostly negative matchups with few even ones and even fewer positive ones. These characters need core elements of their kits redesigned.

did i do good?

Spoiler: text version

S tier: Fox, Wolf, Falco, MK, ROB, Lucario
A tier: Tink, Roy, Diddy, Samus, Marth, Falcon, Sheilda, Lucas, Mewtwo, Ike
B tier: Wario, Peach, ZSS, Snake, Mario, G&W, Luigi, ICs, Link, Pikachu
C tier: Ivysaur, Squirtle, Olimar, Sonic, Charizard, Pit, Yoshi, Ganondorf, Ness
D tier: Kirby, Dedede, Jigglypuff, DK, Bowser

Sheik and Zelda should be included separately on the tier list. You suggest that Shielda should be changed, meaning you want Transform removed, so why rate them as one character? Sheik belongs in B minimum and Zelda belongs in C. It's hard to see how Shielda would even be in A when one or both halves are in lower tiers.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

@ Damp I literally just tested on dk. The dk was at 40. Did a dair and fastfell. He ended up at 63 percent, went through my 12 frames of landing lag and did a jab. It was frame perfect though. Then I started dk at 70, landed while he was at 91, then did an up tilt and it connected. The dk didn't show it was on the last frame of hitstun, so it had at least one frame of leniency for that one. Up tilt comes out 3 frames after jab, so if I had done a jab there it would be in the 4+ frames of leniency, which is pretty lenient. Obviously sdi can be a factor, but that can be with anything. Also its only one character, but I just was messing around and thought I would ask for thoughts.

On the topic of Yoshi: Why is it that nobody brings up fair or dtilt when they talk about the crazy good stuff about him. Dtilt is a Marth dtilt. Hits on frame 8, intangible tail, actionable after frame 23, -5 on shield, set knockback (breaks asdi down on dk at 0). Coupled with a decent dd and a crawl and you have a good start to a good neutral. Fair does like 17 percent and almost always combos on grounded opponents. Oh, and its safe on shield. I understand you can go on and on about the good stuff of like every character, one has to be the worst. I just can't picture Yoshi in the bottom 10. Its just too hard to really put any character down there, so if respectable/good people like Odds and Ripple claim their characters, its just easy to do so. But with Yoshi, its a toss up.

@ Rᴏb Do you remember the idea? I remember posting mine a long time ago. Basically, it was that you always had 5 pikmin, one of each color. Depending on how exact details could/couldn't work out, either pikmin never die or pluck pulls ones you don't have (no duplicates). Variance between them could be more fine tuned since you always knew the lineup you would get. Then you change up how pikmin are swapped out. One idea was they would only switch when separated with a toss/fsmash or a whistle. Another was they switch every 3rd use. I think another was they would switch when you connected. And it could have been a combination of those 3 ideas.

I can see the merits to both, it was just an idea I had to try and get rid of rng without set order. I can understand Oli mains not liking it too. This was back when I had more invested in Olimar, but don't really mes with him anymore.

 

[Soft Serve]

Sheilda is dumb. If I could play a character that was diddy, and mid match I could taunt and switch to like, rob or marth, yeah I'd put that monster in its own spot, because using all the tools the character(s) allow gives you a better MU spread than just playing one.

 

[White Light]

here I go!

 

[Narpas_sword]

Sheik and Zelda should be included separately on the tier list. You suggest that Shielda should be changed, meaning you want Transform removed, so why rate them as one character? Sheik belongs in B minimum and Zelda belongs in C. It's hard to see how Shielda would even be in A when one or both halves are in lower tiers.

How so?

If you look at them split, then combined. surely the combined value is at least as high as the highest individual value.
There's nothing the opponent can do to force you to change to the character who doesnt suit the matchup.

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

here I go!View attachment 67776

MK below Snake, lmfao

 

[Narelex]

MK below Snake, lmfao

MK below Link and Ness is the real travesty here.

But also what the heck man. 3 bad MU's and he gets A?

 

[steelguttey]

i feel like it's the one thing holding the character back. since the pikmin he plucks are random, he cant have a consistently good line up, which is why it's so hard for people to see the character as anything more than 'okay'

someone in this thread posted a really good idea for how his pluck & pikmin should work, i wish i could remember the post...

OHHH THATS WHAT YOU MEAN i thought you wanted to rework how pikmin work in general like their knockback values n ****

oh yea dude **** rng that **** is terrible

@ Damp
@ Rᴏb Do you remember the idea? I remember posting mine a long time ago. Basically, it was that you always had 5 pikmin, one of each color. Depending on how exact details could/couldn't work out, either pikmin never die or pluck pulls ones you don't have (no duplicates). Variance between them could be more fine tuned since you always knew the lineup you would get. Then you change up how pikmin are swapped out. One idea was they would only switch when separated with a toss/fsmash or a whistle. Another was they switch every 3rd use. I think another was they would switch when you connected. And it could have been a combination of those 3 ideas.

I can see the merits to both, it was just an idea I had to try and get rid of rng without set order. I can understand Oli mains not liking it too. This was back when I had more invested in Olimar, but don't really mes with him anymore.

this is a very commonly suggested idea and it removes the strength of having 2 of the same pikmin at once and less pikmin than 4 (3 pikmin is pretty ****in good rn)

i still support my idea that i put out in 3.0 where you get pikmin depending on what you hit ppl with

 

[Sardonyx]

here I go!View attachment 67776

Zelda better than sheik? .-. I can't see why at all

 

[FreeGamer]

Every time I see Kirby in the bottom 10, it hurts a little inside.

 

[Life]

@ Sardonyx Did nobody tell you? Sheik got her only useful option at all nerfed slightly. Now she has literally zero usable moves to contend with the likes of Ganondorf. (Also nice tag LOL)

 

[Narelex]

Every time I see Kirby in the bottom 10, it hurts a little inside.

We need to fix him. I need my Canon MU to be cool dammit.

He feels a little slow for the tools he has, maybe better air mobility or groundspeed is in order. Plus other changes to the functionality of a few moves.

 

[White Light]

MK below Link and Ness is the real travesty here.

But also what the heck man. 3 bad MU's and he gets A?

well, this is just my experiences with mk. hes good but not super incredible. again, i'll fall back on the argument that while there are some great links (red1, some others I cant remember), I cant think of any great mks.

 

[Ripple]

Maybe dash attach should be ungrabbable again

 

[Narelex]

well, this is just my experiences with mk. hes good but not super incredible. again, i'll fall back on the argument that while there are some great links (red1, some others I cant remember), I cant think of any great mks.

What are the downsides that keep him from being great? Lack of representation doesn't mean the character is magically different.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Strong Bad is probably the best MK right now, and he hasn't yet put much time into the character yet. There just hasn't been enough work on developing him I think.

 

[Bazkip]

Maybe dash attach should be ungrabbable again

It makes sense, after all

 

[Narelex]

Strong Bad is probably the best MK right now, and he hasn't yet put much time into the character yet. There just hasn't been enough work on developing him I think.

I'm working on it but I still have a ton of room for personal growth. If I'm being frank.