Tier List Speculation

[4tlas]

So you're saying that if Zelda's fsmash was only active for say frame 16, where the first hit box comes out, it would be better, because following the same stats that it has now, the FAF would be 31? If so, I hope that you realize how ludicrous that is.

I'm not responding to the other parts of this post because they are still not responding to what I'm saying.

If Zelda's fsmash were just the strong hit on the first frame that it hits (so, 17?) and had the same cooldown with damage and knockback compensated, it would be a DIFFERENT move. One that doesn't cover space for that amount of time and isn't as likely to shield poke, but also can't be SDI'd out of and doesn't trade poorly, as well as being a faster move.

Now please stop putting words in my mouth. You've ended every post with something along the lines of "if you think what I say you are, you're an idiot" and its quite abrasive. I never once said the multihits are inherently bad. I never once said that they are even worse than non-multihit moves. I simply was elaborating on the tradeoffs of multihits. You are welcome to disagree and we can have a nice little discussion about it. But ending every post like this is extremely rude. Please, please stop.

Edit: My apologies, I was mistaken about where the rudeness emanated from. It was not at the end of each post, but rather escalated as the discussion continued.

 

[Boiko]

I'm not responding to the other parts of this post because they are still not responding to what I'm saying.

If Zelda's fsmash were just the strong hit on the first frame that it hits (so, 17?) and had the same cooldown with damage and knockback compensated, it would be a DIFFERENT move. One that doesn't cover space for that amount of time and isn't as likely to shield poke, but also can't be SDI'd out of and doesn't trade poorly, as well as being a faster move.

Now please stop putting words in my mouth. You've ended every post with something along the lines of "if you think what I say you are, you're an idiot" and its quite abrasive. I never once said the multihits are inherently bad. I never once said that they are even worse than non-multihit moves. I simply was elaborating on the tradeoffs of multihits. You are welcome to disagree and we can have a nice little discussion about it. But ending every post like this is extremely rude. Please, please stop.

Edit: My apologies, I was mistaken about where the rudeness emanated from. It was not at the end of each post, but rather escalated as the discussion continued.

I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm trying to figure out what you're trying to say because at this point it doesn't seem like you're reaching any sort of point. I never called you an idiot or even inferred that. I said that if you're saying what I think you're saying, it makes no sense, which is true. Talk about putting words in people's mouth.

I'm sorry that you're so offended by your interpretation of my tone over the internet.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Thank you for putting words in my mouth. I didn't say Nayrus was good, I didnt say it was bad, I didnt say it should return, I didnt say I miss it, I didnt say she needed it, I didn't say it wasn't polarizing, I didn't say it wasn't the best combo breaker. I essentially said "these are the few ways in which Nayrus is different from Bowser nair" in an attempt to elaborate on what Oracle said. You did the same, but you also felt the need to throw in some extra bull**** assumptions about my intent.

You were comparing it to other combo breakers when it was both simultaneously more extreme and more effective than any others. Almost sounded as if you were defending it. 3.02 Nayru's shouldn't ever be defended, it did that a little too well on its own kek

i only play with like a quarter of the top 20 players in the world every week, i guess everyone secretly sucks.

Dunno what you're talking about, TX had 1 player in top 8 at LTC
Isn't Strong Bad the best player in Texas? ヽ( ͡°╭͜ʖ╮͡° )ﾉ

 

[4tlas]

I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm trying to figure out what you're trying to say because at this point it doesn't seem like you're reaching any sort of point. I never called you an idiot or even inferred that. I said that if you're saying what I think you're saying, it makes no sense, which is true. Talk about putting words in people's mouth.

I'm sorry that you're so offended by your interpretation of my tone over the internet.

Your original point had nothing to do with mine. I elaborated on my points, not at your request, but at your judgement and critique. Instead of assuming you didn't understand and asking what I meant, you repeatedly assumed you DID understand and that if so, I was an idiot. That is implying that I am an idiot. I think you don't recognize what effect your wording has on other people's interpretations of your statements.

Since you say you did not intend it as such, I apologize. I still would appreciate if you are more careful with your wording.

You were comparing it to other combo breakers when it was both simultaneously more extreme and more effective than any others. Almost sounded as if you were defending it. 3.02 Nayru's shouldn't ever be defended, it did that a little too well on its own kek

One of them has to be the most extreme and effective. I did not say it deserved to be as effective as it was. And no matter how strongly you feel about 3.02 Nayru's, everyone has the right to disagree and debate. This is a forum, after all.

 

[Boiko]

Your original point had nothing to do with mine. I elaborated on my points, not at your request, but at your judgement and critique. Instead of assuming you didn't understand and asking what I meant, you repeatedly assumed you DID understand and that if so, I was an idiot. That is implying that I am an idiot. I think you don't recognize what effect your wording has on other people's interpretations of your statements.

Since you say you did not intend it as such, I apologize. I still would appreciate if you are more careful with your wording.

I never once said the word idiot.

Things I said that maybe you're misconstruing as insulting:

"makes LITERALLY ZERO SENSE"

This is a trust statement that I provided actual frame data to support. It stems from me incorrectly inferring that your point was that multi hit moves are more of a commitment, which is not true.

"I hope you realize how ludicrous that is"

If you don't realize, you're not an idiot, never said that you were. I just hoped you would realize that an fsmash that fast+strong is ridiculous.

"So you're saying the total frame commitment of the move, and how, due to the properties of multi hit moves generally lasting longer, they're worse because their IASA is later? If so, no, that's not correct."

Here I even asked if this was your point, and in case it was, I went on to explain why it's not true.

"I hope you realize that's a good thing."

This was me stating that the properties of a multi hit move allow it to protect (if you will) your character for a longer duration of time whereas other characters would be in an empty cooldown animation. Multi hit moves are then compensated by having a shorter duration of time between the last frame of an active hit box and the FAF. I went on to use an example of Zelda's and Marth's fsmashes.

If any of this offended you, I'm sorry, but there's no reason for it.

And after all of this, I still have zero idea of what point you're trying to make regarding multi hit moves when you originally said:

multihit moves is forced to stay out long enough to put out all the hits

 

[4tlas]

I never once said the word idiot.

Things I said that maybe you're misconstruing as insulting:

This is a trust statement that I provided actual frame data to support. It stems from me incorrectly inferring that your point was that multi hit moves are more of a commitment, which is not true.


If you don't realize, you're not an idiot, never said that you were. I just hoped you would realize that an fsmash that fast+strong is ridiculous.


Here I even asked if this was your point, and in case it was, I went on to explain why it's not true.


This was me stating that the properties of a multi hit move allow it to protect (if you will) your character for a longer duration of time whereas other characters would be in an empty cooldown animation. Multi hit moves are then compensated by having a shorter duration of time between the last frame of an active hit box and the FAF. I went on to use an example of Zelda's and Marth's fsmashes.

If any of this offended you, I'm sorry, but there's no reason for it.

And after all of this, I still have zero idea of what point you're trying to make regarding multi hit moves when you originally said:

I don't care to debate how insulting I felt you were being, as you have since stopped. So, regardless of whether or not anything was justified doesn't matter to me. Thank you for stopping (even if you don't feel like you ever did anything wrong)

If Zelda's fsmash were just the strong hit on the first frame that it hits (so, 17?) and had the same cooldown with damage and knockback compensated, it would be a DIFFERENT move. One that doesn't cover space for that amount of time and isn't as likely to shield poke, but also can't be SDI'd out of and doesn't trade poorly, as well as being a faster move.

This is the most recent way of explaining what I mean that you have not reflected on, so should we start here?

 

[FreeGamer]

Zelda is in an alright place, probably hovering around the center of some mid tier. Things she should have by 4.0:

-A few i-frames for aerial Nayru's Love, just enough to reward skillful timing while being juggled
-Both kicks matched to their Melee KB stats, with the sweetspot having the highest hitbox priority
-A D-Air sweetspot that lasts slightly longer
-A Din's Fire that actually threatens space
-If everyone and their mother wants to keep 3.5/3.6 Din's Fire, then replace Transform with a projectile that actually threatens space
-Her jab's old angle
-Brawl U-Smash (j/k)

 

[DrinkingFood]

Zelda is in an alright place, probably hovering around the center of some mid tier. Things she should have by 4.0:

-A few i-frames for aerial Nayru's Love, just enough to reward skillful timing while being juggled
-Both kicks matched to their Melee KB stats, with the sweetspot having the highest hitbox priority
-A D-Air sweetspot that lasts slightly longer
-A Din's Fire that actually threatens space
-If everyone and their mother wants to keep 3.5/3.6 Din's Fire, then replace Transform with a projectile that actually threatens space
-Her jab's old angle
-Brawl U-Smash (j/k)

Please don't ever make a game

 

[FreeGamer]

boi, don't tell me what to do

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

boi, don't tell me what to do

It was a request

And when DrinkingFood makes a request, you *comply*

Zelda does need a better Din's though.

 

[Narelex]

Made a list cause I was bored and making lists that are likely highly inaccurate is fun.

It's Alphabetical

Obviously opinion and bias are things. I'm counting ROB's correct 3.6 changes for his placement.

 

[FreeGamer]

I'd put Kirby in B, tbh.

 

[42rockjock]

I'd move sonic and zss into B tier imo

 

[InfinityCollision]

This is the most recent way of explaining what I mean that you have not reflected on, so should we start here?

That still doesn't fully make sense and Boiko's already explained why, but I'm gonna divert from that discussion for a second and suggest that you take a short break from this thread. It tends to get you unreasonably worked up of late and again, you're not making a whole lot of sense with your arguments. I don't want this to become a trend, so I'm pointing it out now in hopes that you'll come back to future discussions here with a clearer, more level state of mind.

I did a thing earlier today and tried to make a tier list in under 5 minutes. After taking that and mulling it over for a while, this is what I arrived at. Tiers are not ordered and also not alphabetical, dill with it.

S tier - These characters have good tools in almost every situation and are always a force to be reckoned with.

A tier - Also possess strong tools, but there's less reward and/or more counterplay. May occasionally find themselves vulnerable or without a strong option.

B tier - Their kit is generally potent, but a few gaps ultimately mar an otherwise solid matchup spread.

C tier - Their kit has flaws, but they can be covered somewhat by playing to one's strengths.

D tier - Borderline. A common theme here is a handful of strong tools attached to an otherwise underpowered framework, though critical issues in specific aspects of their gameplan are also a possibility.

E tier - Dysfunctional. May have value in specific matchups and/or on specific stages, but their designs are deeply flawed.

 

[Narelex]

I'd put Kirby in B, tbh.

That's likely just my bias since I've never particularly been wowed by the character. You're probably right.

 

[Ripple]

I tried out Pit today at my local tournament.

I was getting frustrated at how none of his multi hit moves work....like at all

up-tilt, nair, rapid jab, up-smash. people constantly fell out of these moves and I was easily punished.

 

[Narelex]

I tried out Pit today at my local tournament.

I was getting frustrated at how none of his multi hit moves work....like at all

up-tilt, nair, up-smash. people constantly fell out of these moves and I was easily punished.

That's part of the reason why basically his entire grounded gameplan atm revolves around his Dthrow.

I wouldn't mind the idea of changing his Upsmash to a more Greninja upsmash, X slash type of move.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I use up tilt exclusively on grounded opponents as it works best there. I dont find up smash that good. It fails to link on platform enemies and doesn't seem that good at killing. The greninja idea sounds nice, a better sheik up smash (since they are the same idea). Nair, I almost never try and get all hits. I try and interupt before the last hit and combo like that.

 

[KinGly]

That still doesn't fully make sense and Boiko's already explained why, but I'm gonna divert from that discussion for a second and suggest that you take a short break from this thread. It tends to get you unreasonably worked up of late and again, you're not making a whole lot of sense with your arguments. I don't want this to become a trend, so I'm pointing it out now in hopes that you'll come back to future discussions here with a clearer, more level state of mind.

I did a thing earlier today and tried to make a tier list in under 5 minutes. After taking that and mulling it over for a while, this is what I arrived at. Tiers are not ordered and also not alphabetical, dill with it.

S tier - These characters have good tools in almost every situation and are always a force to be reckoned with.

A tier - Also possess strong tools, but there's less reward and/or more counterplay. May occasionally find themselves vulnerable or without a strong option.

B tier - Their kit is generally potent, but a few gaps ultimately mar an otherwise solid matchup spread.

C tier - Their kit has flaws, but they can be covered somewhat by playing to one's strengths.

D tier - Borderline. A common theme here is a handful of strong tools attached to an otherwise underpowered framework, though critical issues in specific aspects of their gameplan are also a possibility.

E tier - Dysfunctional. May have value in specific matchups and/or on specific stages, but their designs are deeply flawed.

My opinions far from the best but this is the best tier list I've seen so far. I would personally put Wario and ZSS in A or B, GW in A, and maybe move ganon up to D but otherwise I really like this.

 

[4tlas]

That still doesn't fully make sense and Boiko's already explained why, but I'm gonna divert from that discussion for a second and suggest that you take a short break from this thread. It tends to get you unreasonably worked up of late and again, you're not making a whole lot of sense with your arguments. I don't want this to become a trend, so I'm pointing it out now in hopes that you'll come back to future discussions here with a clearer, more level state of mind.

I appreciate that, but I'm still not sure where the confusion lies. I also think I'm perfectly calm, but I'll happily take a break.

 

[Life]

I tried out Pit today at my local tournament.

I was getting frustrated at how none of his multi hit moves work....like at all

up-tilt, nair, up-smash. people constantly fell out of these moves and I was easily punished.

Yeah, it's pretty frustrating. Usually if you want usmash to work you have to catch someone out of the air with it. Watch the animation--Pit actually floats off the ground a bit which tends to make it not work as well as it could against grounded opponents whose stagger animation might cause them to low-profile the rest of the hits.

 

[Deleted member]

Zelda is also incredibly susceptible to juggles, has a very mediocre projectile that fast characters will punish for throwing out (and characters with disjoints will clank away), a poor approach, dies early off the top, and loses to characters with speed/good projectiles/disjoints. She doesn't deal well with characters in her face and often has to rely on reads to get things started.

I would say that, as good a player as you are, your Zelda probably did as well as it did because of a lack of matchup experience if I had to guess. Zelda is mid tier at best.

to answer you more formally then-

zelda can decently counterplay juggles simply by DIing off stage, and then recovering down to edge snap. of course, you can mix it up to fool your opponents by going in stage or onto a platform. and yes they can still get you, but this is much better counterplay than most character have

zelda has mediocre approaches for sure, but lots of characters do compared to the better ones. personally though ive never had an issue with zeldas aggression since im spending neutral constantly chasing my opponent down, because you have to. defensive zelda is basically asking to get lamed out. defensive any slow character really.

she dies early off the top, but vertical kill moves are relatively rare, and things that combo into them on her combo weight at relevant percentage even less so. also, when i redesigned zelda for 3.5, part of my submission was to nerf fox upsmash, which happened and helped a lot.

i dont agree that zelda loses to disjoints, and not many projectiles outside of completely non-interactive combos like TL bombs + his movement. i did well when i played vs other marth/link players as zelda, although TL is a nightmare for zelda, and lots of other characters too.

the real reason zelda is legit is because her punish game is good vs real players even if she loses on paper. like lots of the fatty characters, you can lose to XYZ on smashboards but then turn around and do surprisingly well in real matches because you can kill the opponent really well. i would say the same about ike vs falco, while ike should lose badly to lasers, in reality it seems much closer.

 

[Swigo]

tier list

I don't understand how you can put Lucas in S tier, he definitely has solid tools, but I don't see there being any way that he's comparable with Fox etc. Maybe I'm missing something but I'd love to hear the reasoning

 

[Frost | Odds]

Didn't put too much time in this; mostly going with my gut. This more or less represents my current perception.

Yes, it's ordered - left is better as always.

 

[InfinityCollision]

My opinions far from the best but this is the best tier list I've seen so far. I would personally put Wario and ZSS in A or B, GW in A, and maybe move ganon up to D but otherwise I really like this.

There are definitely some borderline characters within each tier. Problem is I'd need another 3-4 tiers and/or outright ordering everyone to cover it, which is time and effort I'm not willing to expend over a tier list.

I don't understand how you can put Lucas in S tier, he definitely has solid tools, but I don't see there being any way that he's comparable with Fox etc. Maybe I'm missing something but I'd love to hear the reasoning

Case in point, Lucas is probably borderline. Still, he's extremely potent and underrated, mostly because he's both underrepresented and heavily unoptimized. His punishes are immensely rewarding, both in control/positioning/damage/kills and the way they feed back into his offensive game by giving him the chance to build an OU charge. His neutral is also excellent, as he's one of the most mobile characters in the game. He sometimes struggles when he's on the receiving end due to his weight, fall speed, and poor tech rolls, but that's about it. He embodies the concept of "don't get hit" better than any other character.

EDIT: @ Frost | Odds

Pikachu.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Goddamnit just pretend I put him between Sheik and Ganon. Sorry, tired -- I haven't forgotten our discussion from last time, just temporary mental lapse.

 

[CELTiiC]

Didn't put too much time in this; mostly going with my gut. This more or less represents my current perception.

Yes, it's ordered - left is better as always.

Do you mind explaining Marth, Pikachu and Pit?

 

[White Light]

Didn't put too much time in this; mostly going with my gut. This more or less represents my current perception.

Yes, it's ordered - left is better as always.

how on earth can anyone think squirtle has a better matchup spread than ivysaur or charizard? lol

 

[InfinityCollision]

^Food for thought: 2/3 lists on this page have Squirtle at least a tier above both characters, and the exception has them in the same tier. Rather than implicitly dismissing the idea that Squirtle might be the current best of the three, maybe you should be asking why.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Odds is in the Slack, he must have been been infected by Daftatt's ridiculous theorycraft...

But seriously, Squirtle is good. For example, if Squirtle mains ever start tapping into the super technical stuff, he should kill the floaty third of the cast at 80 from a throw and hydropivot shields. This character has ridiculous potential.

 

[Hylian]

As someone proficient with both characters, it boggles my mind that so many people think Link is a better character than Ice Climbers.

 

[Narelex]

As someone proficient with both characters, it boggles my mind that so many people think Link is a better character than Ice Climbers.

I have yet to fight one worth their salt so in my case that's just having not fought a good one. #bias

I can see it though.

 

[Poilu]

I have a hard time finding why you would all put Charizard this low. He's a really great character with fantastics tools, superb disjoints, a good range, can kill at low % perhaps the best kill throw, can combo hard Fastfallers and floaties alike. He isn't a top 10 character Imo, but he deserves to be in the high B at least. I saw that there were few American players playing him and I concluded that was why he was this low in the tier lists but the character has a great potential and can be a living hell for many MUs.

 

[DrinkingFood]

inb4 fatty syndrome
the only thing he has in common with other fatties is size, he's pretty much strictly better than them in every other way

 

[Poilu]

He's an example of well designed fatty imo

 

[tasteless gentleman]

I notice in every tier list, bowser is dead last or bottom 3, what exactly is going on with that?

 

[AceGamer]

I notice in every tier list, bowser is dead last or bottom 3, what exactly is going on with that?

Most likely it's because Bowser apparently has no winning match ups this patch and he's overall weaker than he was in 3.5

 

[Jacob29]

I notice in every tier list, bowser is dead last or bottom 3, what exactly is going on with that?

Because he is?

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Because he is?

Thank but that didnt answer my question, WHY is he bottom of the barrell tier? Like what is so bad and where was he in 3.5?

 

[Jacob29]

Thank but that didnt answer my question, WHY is he bottom of the barrell tier? Like what is so bad and where was he in 3.5?

Ah.

Well because his mu spread is prettty bad. Depends who you talk to but I think most would agree almost all of his mu's are either equal or negative for him. His punish game is pretty bad at the moment, and his neutral is also very lacking. His 3.5 tools such as range, punish game, and the ability to counter enemy approaches were what made him passable, but he lost most of that in some way.

Depending on who you ask will put Bowser in different places in 3.5, some thought he was mid tier, others still thought he was bottom.