Tier List Speculation

[#HBC | Joker]

Why are you whining? MK looks like he's gonna have a lot of problems with CC (if I'm correct about this Bowser is gonna be the character of MK's Bane) and vertical recovery. He still looks like a solid contender for the higher tiers but Marth and Sheik (based on Calabrel's and RyokoYaksa's 2.6 streams) have no problem what so ever against him. With that said, I'd like to see how the MK v Falco MU develops

Nah man **** that, MK gone eat your babbies! You're ****ing done kid, he's comin to get you next! Abandon all hope! The sweet sweet taste of victory shall only be known to metaknight from this day forward. You should just change mains, because your other characters are for friendlies only now! Repent, all sinners, for the angel of death is upon us! REPENT!!!

 

[Plum]

Tier List:
1. MK

Everyone else: Whatever.

 

[Bryonato]

So MK feels pretty solid. Not overwhelming or silly. I really like how he turned out

 

[Archangel]

so...how long before we start speculating 2.6? I'm going to take a wild guess and say Sonic will drop on most lists? Diddy will rise/fall depending on how you played him in 2.5 and Metaknight will by first impressions be placed at around mid before floating his way to the top of high.

at least that's the way I feel things will go....as for everyone else....idk. What does everyone think about...everyone?

 

[SpiderMad]

Aerial side-b > Aerials/Jump Aerial never felt better, grounded side-b on the other hand has the cancel (including control over it's height) later on after using it though making a random Side-b cancel to grab need a bit more space to be done (not that this video showed it at its closest distance)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=U8ivImWJO4Q#t=78s

Lucas bair is like a freaking Knee, and MK might be good at gimping but Pit probably doesn't have to fear him for that reason

I wonder who will dominate the Wifi ladder if that ever gets going again, probs Lucas

his (PIt's) bair lasts longer, I didn't test how it affects his SH AC bair

 

[Sethlon]

Ganon's uptilt for Most Fun To Land tier

 

[Kink-Link5]

so...how long before we start speculating 2.6? I'm going to take a wild guess and say Sonic will drop on most lists? Diddy will rise/fall depending on how you played him in 2.5 and Metaknight will by first impressions be placed at around mid before floating his way to the top of high.

at least that's the way I feel things will go....as for everyone else....idk. What does everyone think about...everyone?

Very first impressions

Top
still Fox Falco Sheik
Highish
Peach Pit
Wolf Snake MK Mario
lol what is this nonsense tier
Lucas Ivysaur Game and Watch
Frustrated grunt tier:
Ike 2 frames diddy flip zelda airdodge flamewheel hits sideways no glide DJ

Everyone else.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

so...how long before we start speculating 2.6?

Yo clearly you missed Plum's post up there. He's clearly already got the tiers fully mapped out.

 

[Juushichi]

Worst in the Game/Let's Talk about Hammer/Why is he so bad? Tier:
GnW

 

[Strong Badam]

I spent like an hour on this. I kept moving characters in the bottom ~12 around because I felt bad about some characters being so low and that went around in circles for a while until I said screw it. I still think the bottom ~8 characters are great, they are just less great than the ones above them.

Falco
Fox

Sheik
Zero Suit Samus
Meta Knight
Diddy Kong
Wolf
Pit

Wario
Snake
Mario
Peach
Donkey Kong
Ike
Bowser

Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon
Marth
ROB
Pikachu
Charizard
Sonic
Lucas
Ness
Mr. Game & Watch
Ganondorf
Link

Lucario
King Dedede
Ivysaur
Toon Link
Luigi
Zelda
Squirtle

 

[Juushichi]

Why Luc so low?

 

[The_NZA]

SB, where do you put wolf?

 

[Strong Badam]

I added wolf like 2 secs after your post lol. above pit

 

[Kink-Link5]

I actually kind of agree with that list at a glance SB. Could just be the absolute lack of metagame and first impressions, but it does seem pretty reflective of the characters.

 

[CORY]

Ganon's uptilt for Most Fun To Land tier

yep.

10000yeps

 

[GuruKid]

But Strong Bad... Diddy Kong got nerfed hard! Why so high?

 

[Problem2]

I really like Strong Bad's tier list a lot. I'm not yet comfortable with giving opinions about 2.6's order, but I'll go ahead and post what I thought about 2.5 last, before the update.

PM 2.5b Tier List

1. Sonic

2. Fox
3. Sheik
4. Pit

5. Peach
6. Falco
7. Marth
8. Ness
9. Jigglypuff
10. Wolf

11. Diddy Kong
12. Donkey Kong
13. Charizard
14. Mario
15. R.O.B.
16. Zelda
17. Bowser
18. Captain Falcon
19. Ike
20. Ganondorf

21. Lucario
22. Mr. Game & Watch
23. Lucas
24. Snake
25. Link
26. Toon Link
27. Wario

28. Pikachu
29. Zero Suit Samus
30. Luigi
31. Ivysaur
32. Squirtle
33. King Dedede

 

[Tero.]

I spent like an hour on this. I kept moving characters in the bottom ~12 around because I felt bad about some characters being so low and that went around in circles for a while until I said screw it. I still think the bottom ~8 characters are great, they are just less great than the ones above them.

Falco
Fox

Sheik
Zero Suit Samus
Meta Knight
Diddy Kong
Wolf
Pit

Wario
Snake
Mario
Peach
Donkey Kong
Ike
Bowser

Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon
Marth
ROB
Pikachu
Charizard
Sonic
Lucas
Ness
Mr. Game & Watch
Ganondorf
Link

Lucario
King Dedede
Ivysaur
Toon Link
Luigi
Zelda
Squirtle

Sorry I havent played 2.6 enough to have a solid opinion, but how did ZSS change to now be top tier compared to bottom tier in 2.5b?
Also how did Pit get nerfed? Last time I checked he was like really really REALLY good.

you obv have had a reason to place them there, so I'd like to know from someone in the PMBR.
Thanks!

 

[Rat]

SB that's one of the better tier lists I've seen.

Not sure about CFalcon and Ike over marth.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Sorry I havent played 2.6 enough to have a solid opinion, but how did ZSS change to now be top tier compared to bottom tier in 2.5b?
Also how did Pit get nerfed? Last time I checked he was like really really REALLY good.

you obv have had a reason to place them there, so I'd like to know from someone in the PMBR.
Thanks!

ZSS was a sleeper high tier last iteration.

Not joking. ZSS is good but awkward.

 

[Jahordon]

SB, why is Marth so low on your list? And I thought the general consensus on Diddy from 2.5 was that he was mid-tier, so how did he go up in your list if he was nerfed?

What was changed about Pit in 2.6?

 

[Kink-Link5]

General consensus isn't the same as what a particular person believes. Marth is in an appropriately middling ground in this particular game. He's great in Melee for all the reasons why other characters can outshine him a bit in Project M.

 

[KayB]

Haven't played 2.6 yet, but Squirtle's still bad?

Wah wah

 

[Kink-Link5]

Squirtle's side B feels a lot worse for what I'm use to. He'll slide off the stage if he tries to turn around close to the edge and will fly off the stage if he starts the move above it and to the outside instead of falling down onto the stage. The attack out of side B is on a better input, but he feels the same otherwise. Waiting on the change list to confirm changes to move angles and followup changes.

 

[Bryonato]

Oro must be shedding tears of joy right now. Also it's about ****ing time Ness wasn't bottom 4.

 

[jayeldeee]

Dat down throw combo starter to death with G&W though. Nah, I can understand why he's lower though. He does tend to have clunky and odd movement. I think he could go up higher with more playing though.

I think I'm more surprised the Donkey Kong is higher on the list. I still think he plays very balanced like in all of the games. And Bowser? I think Gimpyfish might be a little happy to see this.

 

[Giygacoal]

Zero was definitely underrated yet (conceptually) great in 2.5b. All she really needed was a bit more cohesive moveset, which she has in 2.6 thanks to the throws.

 

[Graceful]

Huh, why did Strong Bad put Snake above:

Mario
Marth
C.Falcon
Link

Then puts ZSS above the majority of the cast?

loooooool

 

[Professor Pro]

Huh, why did Strong Bad put Snake above:

Mario
Marth
C.Falcon
Link

Then puts ZSS above the majority of the cast?

loooooool

Because Snake is amazing.
His metagame just hasn't been 'universally' developed.

 

[Plum]

Have you seen Snake?
Dude's a monster. IMO he has a few clear weaknesses, but definitely has the tools to work around them. He never wants to be in the air unless its on his own terms - he's huge juggle bait and has trouble getting back to the ground, but with smart use of grenades, C4, Up B, wavebouncing and good ol' airdodge he can make something work. His recovery just leaves him wide open and it's a little awkward to sweetspot, but proper survival DI, grenade recovery and C4 recovery he just keeps coming back. He'll take a lot of % getting back on stage, be it from edgeguard attempts or himself, but always eventually gets back on stage where he's comfortable. Even with his reduced weight (and let's be honest, his Brawl weight is just silly for a regular sized human) he tanks stocks incredibly well. His other weakness imo is his lack of real approach options. But in that regard I liken Snake to Sheik. Sheik's approach is pretty garbage too, but they both have excellent spacial control. So rather than directly approach they just sit around medium-close range and limit your options and play a more reactive game; he has the tools to stuff your approach and convert it into a positive situation for himself.
So he can definitely work around his weaknesses, and play to his strengths very well. If you ask me, he's one of the most well designed characters in this game.

ZSS, I have no experience with so I can't say. Looking at her as somebody with no experience though, she seems like a sortaFalcon that doesn't get ***** for being a fastfaller, so that's bound to be good. Kind of like how 2.5 Sonic was a sortaSpacie who didn't get ***** for being a spacie, but her design doesn't seem to have toxic elements to it.

In all seriousness about Meta Knight, I think SB's placement for him is about right give or take a spot or two.
Funny note, for the first day of playing him I kept using Dair thinking I had Brawl Dair. Brawl Dair is like free edgeguard mode... Using PM Dair thinking it's Brawl Dair is like free killyourself mode

 

[Juushichi]

Snake is better than all of those characters short of maybe Marth.

No opinion on ZSS, but she does force most character to play a completely different game.

Also Plum, you forgot to mention something extremely important about Snake.

His grab game is disgusting.

 

[Professor Pro]

His best traits - Grab Game, Punish Game
Worst traits - Approach game, recovery (MU dependant sometimes), and sort of juggle game but it's actually not that bad due to grenades, and C4 drops forcing the opponent to respect your space.

Plum - Sheik's approach game isn't that bad, and if it is garbage then a new word needs to be made up to represent Snake's approach game, because it's a lot worse lol.

 

[Strong Badam]

Would people be interested in me doing a monthly tier list, with justification and explanations as the metagame develops? Right now my list is mostly based on 2.5 tourney results/experience + my SECRET INSIDER KNOWLEDGE on the 2.6 changes, so I probably won't do a writeup on my current list, but say a month from now I'd love to do one. At the moment there are already some chars I kind of feel like moving around, but I think I'll just let it sit since I didn't put much time into it. Let me know, if there's enough interest I'll see what I can do.

EDIT: I also do not intend to argue/debate with people responding to my list with reasoning. There's really no point. I've little to gain from it and it would fall mostly on deaf ears. Feel free to use my list as a discussion point, however.

 

[DMG]

Snake is going to become unfun to play against. Not in a dominating sense either, just legit unfun to fight because wtf upb and grenades defensively are infuriating. Snake is "le poop" at approaching, and that's kind of why I'm surprised people enjoy playing him. If you are smart you have very good tools defensively, but he doesn't go around GG comboing and shield pressuring everyone.

(Sheik is linear at approaching but she's still a threat you have to respect and deal with if she dashes at you. Snake can't super omega grab you or keep running to punish retreating options. Calling Sheik poo at approaching is basically telling Ivysaur he might as well donate his organs to Popeye's Spinach)

Marth is too low in that list. Marth is not a tier/gap under Wario, he's better than Wario. I think most Wario players would agree with that. I couldn't say definitively whether Marth is better than Mario, Peach, Wolf, or Pit, but there's no way he's legit worse than all of the characters above him.

Do a tier list every other month SB. gg


You don't have to explain it, but like that list is clearly based on a very future point where we not only have quality players using ZSS and MK and similar high characters, but that they demonstrate being top x spot. That list, even if it's correct, would probably take a year and a half of the tournament gauntlet to really show it UNLESS we're dealing with another lolsonic here.

If you talked about it, it wouldn't fall on deaf ears, but there would be plenty of people adamant that you're wrong about say MK and that you're some sort of scrub for not putting GG Bowser in top 5 or zelda in top 10. Good luck dealing with *that*

 

[Professor Pro]

Would people be interested in me doing a monthly tier list, with justification and explanations as the metagame develops? Right now my list is mostly based on 2.5 tourney results/experience + my SECRET INSIDER KNOWLEDGE on the 2.6 changes, so I probably won't do a writeup on my current list, but say a month from now I'd love to do one. At the moment there are already some chars I kind of feel like moving around, but I think I'll just let it sit since I didn't put much time into it. Let me know, if there's enough interest I'll see what I can do.

EDIT: I also do not intend to argue/debate with people responding to my list with reasoning. There's really no point. I've little to gain from it and it would fall mostly on deaf ears. Feel free to use my list as a discussion point, however.

Sounds interesting...I would be up for seeing it.

I definitely would want to play you with Snake and see if I would give or take away on your placement of Snake...is your Snake placement experienced based?
Because it's reasonably high but I don't know if you've played any Snakes (besides you ****** Fuzzy's Snake and it back-firing on him) or is it mostly from seeing Snake.

And lul I just realized Toon Link was 4th from bottom, shoutouts to Jolteon for getting ***** and not changing your perspective (since he thinks a lot of people underrate TL and he wanted to change it when he went to America)

 

[Oro?!]

I spent like an hour on this. I kept moving characters in the bottom ~12 around because I felt bad about some characters being so low and that went around in circles for a while until I said screw it. I still think the bottom ~8 characters are great, they are just less great than the ones above them.

Falco
Fox

Sheik
Zero Suit Samus

Turning people into believers one disgruntled set at a time.

 

[SpiderMad]

Snake is going to become unfun to play against. Not in a dominating sense either, just legit unfun to fight because wtf upb and grenades defensively are infuriating. Snake is "le poop" at approaching, and that's kind of why I'm surprised people enjoy playing him. If you are smart you have very good tools defensively, but he doesn't go around GG comboing and shield pressuring everyone.

I can't stand the current Zelda

 

[Deleted member]

Taken one too many lightning kicks to the crotch?

 

[#HBC | Joker]

would be down for the SB monthly tier list

anybody who wishes to argue with your list will be required to type their arguments while wearing boxing gloves. Then you will do a response segment where we all get to watch a fun animated short, in which you make fun of their grammar and spelling.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Me and mad are super mad and me about Zelda's lack of airdodge out of side B and other changes from 1.0 build.

Still waiting on the change list before I make any more particular statements about her since I can't tell at the moment if she has Melee power bigspots on her kicks yet. It's such a finicky difference between getting a lightning-infused super sweetspot, the also lightning-infused melee sized bigspot, and the also also lightning-infused savoryspot that comes before the sourspot.