Tier List Speculation

[Makai]

Are we in agreement that Zelda is unviable? I've seen some cool stuff in combo videos (mostly Din's Fire into Toe), but her traps take so long to set up. There seems to be a big divide between her and most of the cast.

 

[DtJ SmithZzz]

I've placed Top 3 in every Project: Melee tournament in NC with Toon Link & I think he should be a wee bit higher but that's only my opinion.

 

[Giygacoal]

Yeah, some characters seem better at doing Zelda-esque stuff than Zelda.

 

[DMG]

Are we in agreement that Zelda is unviable? I've seen some cool stuff in combo videos (mostly Din's Fire into Toe), but her traps take so long to set up. There seems to be a big divide between her and most of the cast.

I dunno about unviable, overrated perhaps is a better word. Unreliable too.

 

[Strong Badam]

I can't make a tier list, lol. Whenever I get around to posting one I'll probably just randomize the bottom 8 characters because it doesn't matter.

 

[DMG]

It's kind of hard to say who's the worst 8 for sure and you're probably gonna hurt some feelings in the process. Why not just give everyone a big tie at like, 16th on the tier list?

 

[Strong Badam]

I don't particularly care about hurting people's feelings when I'm writing my opinions on character goodness. The bottom 8 is comparable to like, Melee Luigi or Ganondorf in the context of how much better than the opponent the player needs to be to beat them.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

most of the characters do fine vs marth if you're playing correctly. if you make bad choices then marth is a monster who will feel impossible.

i'd recommend against using luigi, ganon, ness, DDD, ivysaur, and to a certain extent wario against marth. any other character should be fine provided that you play the match-up correctly and are playing someone that is near your own skill level.

Marth is practically easy mode for Wario in terms of gimping him. He has one of the most linear recoveries in the game, and wario stands little to lose by going offstage to challenge him.

 

[Deleted member]

overrated perhaps is a better word.

lmao, overrated by who? Barely anybody ever talks about her except for you and Kink, and that's only to voice how much you think she sucks.

I think she's viable, but I think she needs work to be a real contender. I don't predict her winning anything major anytime soon. Maybe she does need changes to not only make her better, but to also make her more appealing to more players. At this point, I'm not even going to bother defending her. I just want her to be good, and if that means significant change, I'm open to it.

 

[Juushichi]

but she doesn't have to be good.

she just has to be playable. not being viable and being nonfunctional are pretty different things. i think Zelda is pretty functional

but, one might ask: what is "viability" anyway?

has anyone figured this out?

if you want to really be strong enough to win tournaments (circa v2.5b and with enough strong people in attendence), i think you can cut out at least the bottom 1/2 of the cast reasonably, though

that's roughly 16/33 characters currently. how you divvy that up is up to you

my opinion probably unpopular, i'm sure

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'm more than open to the idea of 16 characters getting bufftweaked in some form seeing as most of them do not get played due to their unappealing traits.

It's like, yeah I could try out Pikachu and see if there's anything there that has tournament credibility, but the character is so, I don't know, bland; he feels the same as Pikachu always has with just a few carry overs from Brawl.

 

[Deleted member]

I've been saying it for awhile. He's Melee Pikachu + QAC/64Bair, which aren't enough to save him from mediocrity.

 

[DMG]

QAC is borken tierz

Apparently Pikachu is better than Sonic, according to random person who voted on Canon's tier list survey

 

[B.W.]

I've been saying it for awhile. He's Melee Pikachu + QAC/64Bair, which aren't enough to save him from mediocrity.

You're not alone. People swear to me that he's amazing.

He's Melee Pikachu with 64B-air. QAC only aids recovery, it's not useful for anything else. His F-air is also only slightly better, but F-air > U-Smash being an easy combo doesn't mean squat.

 

[Deleted member]

QAC is over-rated for positioning purposes. at first it looks like he supersedes the rules of the game, but it's actually pretty easy to meaningfully interact with it because his movement is dedicated in much the same way as ike's side b is. pikachu is fine as is and should probably be left alone.

 

[B.W.]

If Pikachu gets left as he is (aside from them actually fixing his up-B to make it Melee length and sweetspot) while everyone gets tweaked he's going to be the worst character in the game.

 

[DMG]

Pikachu can't be the worst BECAUSE MELEE



Because he's cool and fun to play

****... uh Yellow's cool?

Strike 3 gg Pikachu is the new Bulbasaur that's how bad he is. Bulbasaur is a ***** look at Ivysaur he eats his Spinach (does that make him a cannibal?)

 

[Spiffykins]

I saw Axe using it in a way that made it LOOK like it could be used to combo out of tail spikes more efficiently, or at least make tech chasing easier. So that's something I guess.

Anyway, Pikachu is still "friendlies only" tier to me. Needs to be equipped with a Light Ball before he's viable.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'm not convinced that he isn't viable so much as just boring as he stands right now.

 

[DMG]

Everyone is viable, said some guys who only played good characters like Marth and Falco

 

[MVP]

every character is tourney viable.

 

[trash?]

But there's still going to be characters that are more tourney viable. No way around that, doesn't matter how much people try to say otherwise.

 

[Strong Badam]

I've been saying it for awhile. He's Melee Pikachu + QAC/64Bair, which aren't enough to save him from mediocrity.

this depends on your definition of mediocrity.

 

[Plum]

I think Pikachu is probably fine as he is right now. I just think that nobody plays him at a high enough level aside from basically Axe to really bring out what is possible for the character.
I do think QAC is overrated, but mostly because it's a double jump which really limits its use. If it was a first jump it would open up Pikachu's options a TON. Don't know if that would be too good or not, but I lean towards no considering moves like Shine exist...
But even as he stands right now, as more or less Melee Pikachu+, he's probably viable. I would say he's definitely a solid mid tier character in Melee, and probably around the same place in Project M with the small buffs he was given. I think it's basically whether or not you want him to be better than that, and that depends on where you draw the optimal balance line in Project M. For some people that line is probably unrealistically high because they don't want to accept that mid tier is a fine place to be.

 

[Deleted member]

i think pikachu is a mediocre character. and that's great. this game needs as many mediocre characters as it can get.

 

[DMG]

Noooooooo

It needs fun characters not bad ones

 

[SpiderMad]

Pikachu had a crazy good QAC and extra QAC options like Grab and Up-smash out of it/ super brawl Nair/ and possibly better Bair, prior to 2.1

Kels has a Pikachu he whips out once in a while to beat people in P:M/Melee

Right now I would just imagine making his added QAC options have a longer (easier) window to activate
http://projectmgame.com/en/characters/pikachu

 

[Deleted member]

this depends on your definition of mediocrity.

He still feels like a Mid-tier Melee character to me, and I consider that mediocre in this game. Maybe current PM Pikachu would reach Melee Ganondorf's level, but even then, the characters at Melee Ganondorf's level got/are getting buffed. Nobody has ever said "I really want [PM Character] to be as good as Melee Pikachu."

...and please, for heaven's sake, give him a dash attack that doesn't absolutely suck. He's not good enough that he can afford to have moves that absolutely suck.

i think pikachu is a mediocre character. and that's great. this game needs as many mediocre characters as it can get.

...what? Why? And how do you fairly decide which characters are doomed to mediocrity? Just the ones you personally don't really care all that much for?

 

[Strong Badam]

pikachu is significantly better than melee pikachu. probably about as good as melee ice climbers. and that's a decent "good enough" point imo

 

[Deleted member]

I simply don't agree. I think we were banking on QAC to lift him much higher than Melee Pikachu, and frankly, I haven't seen any reason to believe that it has. He's obviously better, but I don't believe it's by much.

If Melee Ice Climbers really are "good enough," then please explain why Peach received some buffs? Now I'm not complaining about her changes because I rather like them, but how can you claim that Melee Ice Climbers are "good enough" when you improved, however slightly you may believe it was, a character already better than them? I could even say the same thing about Captain Falcon. He was "good enough" in Melee where he couldn't grab the ledge out of Raptor Boost, so using your logic, why did he need to be improved at all?

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

Oh yeah I forgot, I need the best Luigi in the world in my backyard before I criticize that Pickle of a character. You literally could hold back real buff progress for that character with talks like that. While we're at it, might as well say Ganon is as good as Falco. Bet you don't play with Kage all day, what now son? Gonna use that Cucumber of a man to prove me wrong?

(I like Luigi, but please put down the sugar and drugs if you think he's as good as a ****in certified spacies)

Eli knows what's up. **** Fox bro, he's a ***** nugga

Don't you DARE detriment Ganon buffs!

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

I simply don't agree. I think we were banking on QAC to lift him much higher than Melee Pikachu, and frankly, I haven't seen any reason to believe that it has. He's obviously better, but I don't believe it's by much.

If Melee Ice Climbers really are "good enough," then please explain why Peach received some buffs? Now I'm not complaining about her changes because I rather like them, but how can you claim that Melee Ice Climbers are "good enough" when you improved, however slightly you may believe it was, a character already better than them? I could even say the same thing about Captain Falcon. He was "good enough" in Melee where he couldn't grab the ledge out of Raptor Boost, so using your logic, why did he need to be improved at all?

Aerial Raptor Boost is still -1000 on hit.

I don't need to be able to be punished when I HIT someone.

Off-topic, but it needs to be made known.

I KNOW some people will argue, "just don't use it", but there's no real reason why I should be punished for hitting someone

 

[Hardpelicn]

I have to really disagree with the bottom part of the tier list.
Squirtle, D3 and Toon Link do not deserve to be that low. I plan on making a few TAS's to show squirtles viability, then I'll get around to uploading some local tourney matches to show them in use.
Squirtle is quite ridiculous if played by the right person.

 

[Scythe]

, but there's no real reason why I should be punished for hitting someone

have you never played against someone who uses crouch canceling effectively? Maybe you should try a different game before you experience CCing lol.

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

have you never played against someone who uses crouch canceling effectively? Maybe you should try a different game before you experience CCing lol.

CC in P:M is too strong, anyway.

I figured people would strive to see that fixed so it's similar to Melee instead of being able to CC things at like 60%

 

[standardtoaster]

CCing is melee. there's just a larger abundance of lower kb moves overall in pm

 

[DMG]

Someone said it was very close/exactly like Melee before, because it's been brought up that CC "feels" better and works at higher % than the Melee version. I'm not sure exactly who talked about it, but a developer iirc said we were mistaken.

My guess a long time ago was due to wacky stage detection/blah blah blah issues.

 

[Vashimus]

I agree. Pikachu hasn't changed much, and he remains bland to play as because he still has the same problems he has in Melee, but he isn't really given anything significant to make it feel like a trade-off. His range still sucks ass and he finds it hard to approach at neutral without being super obvious. I gotta go with Kinky Winky and giving him some of Pichu's good traits, like Mario got some of Doc's. At least it's something.

 

[GunBlaze]

CCing is melee. there's just a larger abundance of lower kb moves overall in pm

Everybody though?

 

[Burnsy]

I think this game would be a lot better if CCing was slightly less effective. I don't want it to be completely useless or anything, but when people are still ****ing up my offense with it around 60-70 percent (often unintentionally), it's kind of a buzz kill and feels like bad game play design.