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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
ItalianStallion
Smash Journeyman
Mario is my first thought
EDIT: Also Pikachu, considering in the right hands he loves to gimp spacies, and they made him better in PM.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
We all know Fox is already dumb though
Since it was just on stream and in my mind, Charizard vs Zelda go
+1 for Charizard imo. He has some of the most reliable combos against her and great moves to take advantage of her spacing options, but gets auto-comboed to death by her.
Since it was just on stream and in my mind, Charizard vs Zelda go
+1 for Charizard imo. He has some of the most reliable combos against her and great moves to take advantage of her spacing options, but gets auto-comboed to death by her.
ItalianStallion
Smash Journeyman
We have a new thread for matchups.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Must have missed it; what's the point of this thread then?
If Mario could approach faster, yes that's possible.
But no srsly, list a spread you think makes sense for Fox and Luigi. I'll match it with my own. Doesn't even have to be super detailed, just a brief who wins/loses and you can skip any characters.
Just be aware that Fox is literally going to have wins in 95% of his columns without much thought. Ask anyone. It's kind of... obvious... that Fox is like 5x minimum better than Luigi, but I'm willing to induldge this MU spread you think Luigi has that can match Fox.
But no srsly, list a spread you think makes sense for Fox and Luigi. I'll match it with my own. Doesn't even have to be super detailed, just a brief who wins/loses and you can skip any characters.
Just be aware that Fox is literally going to have wins in 95% of his columns without much thought. Ask anyone. It's kind of... obvious... that Fox is like 5x minimum better than Luigi, but I'm willing to induldge this MU spread you think Luigi has that can match Fox.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,545
lol at fox losing to mario. if mario had some semblance of a neutral game i could agree with you, but nope.
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
Its one thing to say a character has a bad matchup in terms of like, struggling against a particular character in some ways. Its another thing to say that they flat out lose to that character most of the time overall.
I don't think its realistic to say that Fox loses to any character in this game or has any matchup that he is less than 50/50 in at the most.
Also I want to add that there is no justification for this and actually hurts P:M as a game, because melee players just have another reason to bash the game and say things like "i don't even play this game and i'm beating everyone", and if they lose they'll say "this game is so janky" because their same old tired spacies crap didn't work as well.
I don't think its realistic to say that Fox loses to any character in this game or has any matchup that he is less than 50/50 in at the most.
Also I want to add that there is no justification for this and actually hurts P:M as a game, because melee players just have another reason to bash the game and say things like "i don't even play this game and i'm beating everyone", and if they lose they'll say "this game is so janky" because their same old tired spacies crap didn't work as well.
Dude Mario is like overpowered
When people run into your Dair every time
and don't understand how to space against you
and DI poorly
and get grabbed without getting combo'd into it prior (Mario stubby arms and bad up close grab threat unless he combo'd you earlier)
Mario is fine but jesus these people who have him as Top 5, it's as if they forgot Sheik and Marth and "very good" characters exist
But who are we to judge, we don't play vs MarioGod23 every single day, we can't say ****! What's that SB you work on developing this game? Poppycock, fight me offline IRL M8 I'll bop ya with Mario son *plumber noises*
When people run into your Dair every time
and don't understand how to space against you
and DI poorly
and get grabbed without getting combo'd into it prior (Mario stubby arms and bad up close grab threat unless he combo'd you earlier)
Mario is fine but jesus these people who have him as Top 5, it's as if they forgot Sheik and Marth and "very good" characters exist
But who are we to judge, we don't play vs MarioGod23 every single day, we can't say ****! What's that SB you work on developing this game? Poppycock, fight me offline IRL M8 I'll bop ya with Mario son *plumber noises*
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
Bro, do you even shine?
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,545
also keep in mind that spacie players are bad and consider an even match-up and often even 55-45 match-ups in their favor as "struggling" because they're used to 6-4ing or more against every character because SSBM is a poorly balanced game.
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
Here come the ****ing monkey mains
ItalianStallion
Smash Journeyman
So people can continue talking about tier lists if they wish.
PM Fox = Melee Fox basically. We all know his game, his strategy, what he is capable of, etc. The PM characters that got buffs (Most of them), are essentially brand new characters. Many people don't exactly know what they are capable of. So if I were to do what you ask, you would probably laugh, considering you either seriously overestimate Fox, or seriously underestimate the rest of the cast.
Fox's metagame is going to be good right now considering it's been developed for over ten years. A good portion of the cast are new enough as characters that they haven't been maxed out like Fox has. So if I were to say something like Charizard has a good matchup versus Fox (Which is what I believe), you, who haven't seen what Zard is capable of, but have seen really good Foxes, would probably disagree. However, that does not in any way mean that I am wrong.
If you wish me to make a rudimentary matchup list for both of them, I can, but not until later (I have work soon and the matchup spread will take some time to do well).
Oro?!
Smash Hero
If you know what every PM character is capable of, even if it's just in their current metagame, then who gives a rats ass if they know what Fox can do. He will bloop bloop all over your **** and you lose.
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
ItalianStallion, the only reason I think you believe what you do is because you have hope. You have optimism that new things will be discovered and some other characters that you like or find interesting will develop awesome new metagames utilizing all their new tools and abilities and eventually rise up the tier list. Which they might.
However, Fox will still beat them. He just already has everything he needs. If you get hit anywhere on the stage, no matter how you tech, Fox is fast enough to kill you with an up smash 100% of the time if you're at high enough percent. And you will be at high enough percent because he can short hop double laser you effortlessly without getting punished on 95% of all legal tournament stages.
However, Fox will still beat them. He just already has everything he needs. If you get hit anywhere on the stage, no matter how you tech, Fox is fast enough to kill you with an up smash 100% of the time if you're at high enough percent. And you will be at high enough percent because he can short hop double laser you effortlessly without getting punished on 95% of all legal tournament stages.
So like, Fox was a god in Melee
and he's really damn close to exactly the same in this game
Therefore, he's not a god anymore???
Put it this way: the metagame "maxed out" idea. Fox has been around for longer and has been developed more. This is very true. But take the kit of the character and ask yourself: can I take Charizard further than a frame 1
Frame 1
FRAME 1
FRAME 1
FRAME 1 .00000000000000000001
Fantastic Invincible Afficionado Move? Do you realize that no matter how good we as Humans get, that Fox and Falco always have a technically better answer that if perfected and maxed, would make the game nigh unplayable under any reasonable circumstance? Shine is literally so good that if we took things even further, that entire CHARACTERS would lose to it. That's over one single move, on already amazing characters.
If we put 10 years into Zard or Mario or xyz character, they don't match Spacies because those same 10 years could be some "****" deciding to take things even further with Shine and making your work literally mean nothing.
and he's really damn close to exactly the same in this game
Therefore, he's not a god anymore???
Put it this way: the metagame "maxed out" idea. Fox has been around for longer and has been developed more. This is very true. But take the kit of the character and ask yourself: can I take Charizard further than a frame 1
Frame 1
FRAME 1
FRAME 1
Fantastic Invincible Afficionado Move? Do you realize that no matter how good we as Humans get, that Fox and Falco always have a technically better answer that if perfected and maxed, would make the game nigh unplayable under any reasonable circumstance? Shine is literally so good that if we took things even further, that entire CHARACTERS would lose to it. That's over one single move, on already amazing characters.
If we put 10 years into Zard or Mario or xyz character, they don't match Spacies because those same 10 years could be some "****" deciding to take things even further with Shine and making your work literally mean nothing.
ItalianStallion
Smash Journeyman
So I'm an optimist and you're a pessimist (When it concerns Fox)? Well, I guess only time will tell who ends up right.
He was a god in Melee because he was so far above the rest of the cast.
Can he really be a god in PM considering now there are 32 other gods with him?
D
Deleted member
Guest
http://smashboards.com/threads/my-problems-with-project-m.335835/#post-15465793
http://smashboards.com/threads/my-problems-with-project-m.335835/page-2#post-15467504
http://smashboards.com/threads/my-problems-with-project-m.335835/page-2#post-15470345
http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-else-miss.336182/#post-15533704
http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-else-miss.336182/#post-15540304
http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-else-miss.336182/#post-15541549
http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-else-miss.336182/#post-15542987
http://smashboards.com/threads/on-the-topic-of-fox-falco-hate.335016/page-7#post-15411842
http://smashboards.com/threads/on-the-topic-of-fox-falco-hate.335016/page-8#post-15416646
http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-social-thread.260812/page-2146#post-15249783
http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-social-thread.260812/page-2146#post-15249946
http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-social-thread.260812/page-2171#post-15303298
We needed more Sonic hate right? I can do this all day.
http://smashboards.com/threads/my-problems-with-project-m.335835/page-2#post-15467504
http://smashboards.com/threads/my-problems-with-project-m.335835/page-2#post-15470345
http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-else-miss.336182/#post-15533704
http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-else-miss.336182/#post-15540304
http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-else-miss.336182/#post-15541549
http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-else-miss.336182/#post-15542987
http://smashboards.com/threads/on-the-topic-of-fox-falco-hate.335016/page-7#post-15411842
http://smashboards.com/threads/on-the-topic-of-fox-falco-hate.335016/page-8#post-15416646
http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-social-thread.260812/page-2146#post-15249783
http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-social-thread.260812/page-2146#post-15249946
http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-social-thread.260812/page-2171#post-15303298
We needed more Sonic hate right? I can do this all day.
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
I'm confused.
Is the Sonic hate based on Sonic being too good as in he will always win, or is it based on Sonic making the game unbearably boring?
Because I can understand the point of view on the second one. However I will pretty much always beat Sonic players so I'll just ignore the first possibility.
Is the Sonic hate based on Sonic being too good as in he will always win, or is it based on Sonic making the game unbearably boring?
Because I can understand the point of view on the second one. However I will pretty much always beat Sonic players so I'll just ignore the first possibility.
bmullins123
Smash Journeyman
I can see MK being Top tier when he comes out and sonic being downgraded.
ItalianStallion
Smash Journeyman
I know, I'm pretty unbearable right?
You get upset very easily. I think I'm going to enjoy seeing you on the boards. If I am ever bored, I'll just pop in and say something to make your head explode with anger.
Anyways, it was nice talking with you ripe old chaps. I'm going to go make me some money.
Luigi is god tier.
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
Eli is god tier*
......
Eli is gah tier*
......
Eli is gah tier*
Well hasn't Sethlon quit Sonic? You're left with Wizzrobe mainly then. Do you guys play any? Everyone knows you do fine vs leelue (not saying anything about lue either)
Points were that Sonic makes the game boring, but more importantly that fighting against him is both polarizing like Zelda (she camps you well or blows at camping you. There's not much inbetween) AND that it steers off from traditional gameplay into basically Sonic land where you're taken on a roller coaster and he's the operator and you pray you can stomach the horror that will follow. Characters and people have less fun fighting Sonic than Fox, which is sad because Fox is even less fair. Sonic literally has a penis drawn on his forehead, he's a rat.
Edit: Stallion guy bro dude, it's not even pure anger. You can have an opinion, I just find you crazy and I don't approve of a lot of what you are saying because it could delay honest balance because you're "content" with how Luigi's doing. I have a friend who wants to main Luigi but knows that it's a hard road ahead and that there are a ton of better characters out there. Not because of some tier list on the boards, but because in his heart and with his eyes he can see that Luigi isn't that great (awesome, but not great). He doesn't want to go waddling through tough MU's vs characters who have to try much less harder and will do better overall. Now if Luigi got well deserved buffs, his mind may be changed AND one day it may actually be true that Luigi gets to be as good as Fox.
You're way too optimistic about how good characters are or may be. You make Nauusica look like a debbie downer, it's incredible.
PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Hologram Summer Again
as a mario main I at least have fun fighting fox, because despite shine mario still has options and cape of course, and fox at least plays smash, and is capable of being beat despite his glaring brokeness. Cape does nothing against sonic. All forms of damage reset sonic's up-b, so no matter how many times you cape him offstage, he can just up-b right back at you, and air dodge out of his up-b.
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
There are things about Sonic that should really be toned down. But at the same time there are things about Fox that should also be toned down.
There's no good reason to pay attention to one set of reasons and not the other.
There's no good reason to pay attention to one set of reasons and not the other.
PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Hologram Summer Again
I ****ing hate fox but I still have fun fighting him.
PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Hologram Summer Again
PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Hologram Summer Again
PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Hologram Summer Again
Fun is for casuals
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
but eli, using inui logic...
m2k is ur demon and sonic is his demon
the real question is: who was phone???
m2k is ur demon and sonic is his demon
the real question is: who was phone???
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
For real I feel like I've gotten much much better at the spacies matchup just from yesterday's tournament set vs. m2k. Like I really learned things. (Which btw I never actually attempt to on my own time, and I never actually fight spacies players at any of my fests)
But that set alone made me figure a lot of stuff I can do against them. I think ultimately when I get good enough at the matchup, you're gonna start seeing some abnormally boring gameplay from my end. Lots of dash dance camping looking for grabs. Which I don't normally do.
Then you'll realize the level of dullness you must sink to in order to play those matchups. LOL @ Sonic being no fun, just wait.
But that set alone made me figure a lot of stuff I can do against them. I think ultimately when I get good enough at the matchup, you're gonna start seeing some abnormally boring gameplay from my end. Lots of dash dance camping looking for grabs. Which I don't normally do.
Then you'll realize the level of dullness you must sink to in order to play those matchups. LOL @ Sonic being no fun, just wait.
Vashimus
Smash Master
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
wait so no reason was given why mario "beats" fox?
D
Deleted member
Guest
i think mario is certainly very close to fox. mario's punishment game is just excellent in this game and his neutral is also very workable. he just doesn't have an obvious go-to strategy for neutral abuse like falco or sonic do. he's more like sheik where it's a mix of everything and more finesse play.
for you people playing mario out there, ban larger stages and make good use of patience and you will go far. the character is the real deal in this game.
for you people playing mario out there, ban larger stages and make good use of patience and you will go far. the character is the real deal in this game.
People don't think he's good, because there's nothing immediately abusable like so many other characters, but... that's the point. He doesn't have much, if any cheap stuff, he has no 0-death combos, he doesn't have anything tricky or crazy, he's just all-around really, really great. I wouldn't be too surprised at a 5-5 MU with him v spacies, because he's the kind of character designed to go 5-5 with just about everyone.