Tier List Speculation

[Ripple]

Good good. Now even non DDD mains are complaining about his nerfs.

I may soon have him back. Maybe I'll write that post I said I would a week ago about him today

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah it's great how people are complaining about Aftershock's system 3 months later. Come beat us at LTC3/Paragon and "expose" us I guess.

Sounds like Joe wants to money match Lunchables at Paragon tho. How much you puttin down son?

WHAT THE **** IS GOING ON

I leave for a day or two, come back, Seagull Joe is talking **** on me, and strong bad is setting me up for money matches?

Is this a ****ing knife fight in a god damn alley way? Jesus christ I just do my homework and go to school like a good boy WHAT DID I DO TO DESERVE THIS

 

[CORY]

just take the god damned money match and win! it's not that hard, young man!

 

[PlateProp]

You just said you lost an approach based on the idea that you now have to rely on better decision making and spacing, which a bigger hit-box accommodates, RATHER than the opponent trying to swat at something they can't swat, and getting hit for it, as well as implying that them screwing up like this will be a consistent thing you can use to your advantage in approaching.
Seriously, ever post you've had is directing you to look in a mirror when it comes to your bizarre... assumtions and accusations. From Fox to Marth so far. lol

Squirtle can still N-Air, and it's better in the sense that it's all on Squirtle doing well to hit the Marth without running into things, rather than Marth messing up and getting hit.
See how that works?


You're doing it to yourself again.



WD F-Tilt for days, it'll work a lot better than any aerial, bubble, or hydro-tech-squirt-bomb-spin ever will.


Agreed, NZA, there are some really bizarre and currently observably unwarranted changes in this patch that going in the opposite direction.
More RNG for Luigi and some senseless intangible projectiles surrounded by things like Ike's Side-B finally having decent end-lag and Grab intangibility fixed on weird moves like ASC and Yoshi.
Good ideas mixed with some bleh.

I love it when people who dont even play a character know everything there is to know about it

This must be how @PMS | steelguttey feels when people say things about olimar

 

[The_NZA]

Agreed, NZA, there are some really bizarre and currently observably unwarranted changes in this patch that going in the opposite direction.
More RNG for Luigi and some senseless intangible projectiles surrounded by things like Ike's Side-B finally having decent end-lag and Grab intangibility fixed on weird moves like ASC and Yoshi.
Good ideas mixed with some bleh.

I mean, Ike was barely touched. Side B has 3 more frames of endlag when it already had 30ish (not that impatful IMO). And Ike's side b is less powerful and therefore less of a meaty attack option in neutral. But It doesn't even begin to address what people have a problem with, which is the mixup potential between quickdraw grab, quickdraw aerial/rar aerial, and quickdraw attack are such a potent triangle of options that there are no great answers to mitigate risk against them. This is STILL true...only now, your opponent gets less off of QD attack.

That, and they nerfed the one part of his recovery that 90% of people didn't even know he had (and weren't complaining about).

 

[didds]

I love it when people play a character and can't accept that maybe, just maybe, they need to improve as a player rather than blame their woes on character limitations.

It's stupidly obvious to anyone with even a mild understanding of frame data and how smash spacing works that squirtle can exploit the holes in Marths game. Just like how it's stupidly obvious that melee pika can do the same to melee marth with even less tools and mobility than squirtle has in PM.

I've seen your play plate, and I wish I didn't have to call you out but you're incredibly condescending and negative and really don't seem malleable to differing opinions, but your squirtle play definitely does not give you credibility on this character.

You talk about the difficulty of getting in on marth but when I watched your one match of you against a marth, you played the mu like you wanted to be read and swatted away. Predictable turn arounds in dsmash, hydro whatever usmash at bad percentages that lead to nothing, sh fair and nair approaches without first conditioning or baiting marth, predictable side b approaches everywhere.
some bubbles were good I guess.

No wavelanding, no wd ftilt or anything like that.
Squirtle can wd in to grab as an approach if he wants.

And what I don't get is you demonstrate good movement, but it's like you stop using fundamentals at any sign of pressure from the opponent.

Squirtle has weaknesses, no denying that, but **** dude you talk about him like he's absolutely incapable of beating anyone with a stick or decent tech chase.

A lot of people here can admit when they have maybe been playing a mu wrong or if there's something they overlooked, but you seem incapable of that.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds your posting style a bit inflated and almost entirely unproductive. It's no wonder that a lot of people who are trying to improve and work on their own personal flaws avoid this place like the plague.

 

[The_NZA]

Well, looks like the call outs have begun and the toxicity is Britney Spears levels again so i'm just going to dip...

 

[Soft Serve]

I'll call myself out, diddy is ****ing godlike, he has like, maybe 10 bad MUs total? I only lose because I'm bad

Also MK is super good, fox/wolf/roy are still really dumb

 

[Rᴏb]

Well, looks like the call outs have begun and the toxicity is Britney Spears levels again so i'm just going to dip...

You mentioned something about how it was generally agreed upon that G&W was broken due to his recovery and "combo escape fluidity". Do you think you could expand on this? I thought G&W's recovery was generally accepted due to how light he is; it's good, but broken? I don't know about that.

By "combo escape fluidity" I'm assuming you're talking about using upb to escape combos, right? I've definitely seen people complain about this, but what most people seem to ignore is that fact that using upb to escape combos still leaves you above your opponent, which is obviously one of the worst places you can be. G&W does have the luxury of being about to throw out aerials after using upb, but the best one you can use in that situation is dair which really isn't anything to write home about in terms of its range...

If you wanted to call anything G&W has "broken", you should've mentioned his throws.

 

[Funbot28]

So after 3.6, are Fox, Mewtwo and Mario still top 3?

 

[Journal]

So after 3.6, are Fox, Mewtwo and Mario still top 3?

Maybe. It's less than a month in.

 

[Funbot28]

Maybe. It's less than a month in.

Ok, but just want to know if the update brought several balance changes to change the tier list?

Btw, if some one has an official tier list for PM 3.5, can you link please?

 

[Boiko]

You mentioned something about how it was generally agreed upon that G&W was broken due to his recovery and "combo escape fluidity". Do you think you could expand on this? I thought G&W's recovery was generally accepted due to how light he is; it's good, but broken? I don't know about that.

By "combo escape fluidity" I'm assuming you're talking about using upb to escape combos, right? I've definitely seen people complain about this, but what most people seem to ignore is that fact that using upb to escape combos still leaves you above your opponent, which is obviously one of the worst places you can be. G&W does have the luxury of being about to throw out aerials after using upb, but the best one you can use in that situation is dair which really isn't anything to write home about in terms of its range...

If you wanted to call anything G&W has "broken", you should've mentioned his throws.

Not speaking for NZA, but this is what I find silly about G&W:

The ability to double jump after up+b. Most people aren't typically able to SDI a frame 3 combo escape option. So that means that G&W could use his combo escape tool to occasionally combo into death. You really need to anticipate the upb, and even if you do, he has the ability to jump away and cover himself with disjoint. Comparatively, Samus' upb OoS, which hits a frame later (intangible frame 1, hitbox out frame 4), puts her into free fall. Bowser's upb OoS, which I believe has the same stats as Samus', is a long grounded commitment, and considering the character it's attached to, I don't think it's overpowered. Also, G&W's recovery becomes pretty difficult to edge guard. He launches himself quickly, and can immediately double jump out and put out another hit box. It's not incredibly difficult, but it is frustrating to deal with.

I don't really think any character should be able to attack out of upb unless it also consumes their jump. And even then I think the list should be limited. I never really saw a problem with it with Mewtwo (the way it is now), or Snake, but I do see a lot of problems with it with G&W (and Sonic is on the fence). Simply put, it almost never makes sense to not use b to get out of combos. The risk reward is very skewed and the option rarely gets punished.

These are my two recommendations on how it should be changed.

Either:
1.) Upb puts G&W into free fall, all stats remain the same.
or
2.) Upb consumes G&W's jump, he can still act out of up+b. start up reduced to around frame 6-7.

I think everything else about him is pretty much fine. Weird, but fine.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Not speaking for NZA, but this is what I find silly about G&W:

The ability to double jump after up+b. Most people aren't typically able to SDI a frame 3 combo escape option. So that means that G&W could use his combo escape tool to occasionally combo into death. You really need to anticipate the upb, and even if you do, he has the ability to jump away and cover himself with disjoint. Comparatively, Samus' upb OoS, which hits a frame later (intangible frame 1, hitbox out frame 4), puts her into free fall. Bowser's upb OoS, which I believe has the same stats as Samus', is a long grounded commitment, and considering the character it's attached to, I don't think it's overpowered. Also, G&W's recovery becomes pretty difficult to edge guard. He launches himself quickly, and can immediately double jump out and put out another hit box. It's not incredibly difficult, but it is frustrating to deal with.

I don't really think any character should be able to attack out of upb unless it also consumes their jump. And even then I think the list should be limited. I never really saw a problem with it with Mewtwo (the way it is now), or Snake, but I do see a lot of problems with it with G&W (and Sonic is on the fence). Simply put, it almost never makes sense to not use b to get out of combos. The risk reward is very skewed and the option rarely gets punished.

These are my two recommendations on how it should be changed.

Either:
1.) Upb puts G&W into free fall, all stats remain the same.
or
2.) Upb consumes G&W's jump, he can still act out of up+b. start up reduced to around frame 6-7.

I think everything else about him is pretty much fine. Weird, but fine.

Upb could still be good if you still attack out of it. Makes combos out of it less stupid and makes it a more punishable defensive option. I was honestly surprised when 3.6 came out that they decided to just tack on a few more frames to it when the big complaint about it was that it was made incredibly safe by the ability to dj out of it

 

[Soft Serve]

I don't mind up b keeping double jump, I just wish if I got the hard read/ out played him and hit him out of up b it took his jump.

As a diddy player the frustration/difficulty of gnw's up b lies less in him up bing out of strings and more that I can't stop him from recovering and pretty much rely on catching bad DI on tech chases/dthrow (actually on proper DI, at least in 3.5, I could still run>dsmash him off dthrow if he didn't up/b out). Up b hit box saves him from banana gimps, and as long as he has his jump holding ledge hardly does anything to him and intercepting with bair doesn't do much if he DIs well (and loses to fair/nair/bacon/hammer which are safe for him if he still have dj). Comboing him can be hard but it's not so much about him up-bing out of most strings, and more about guessing correctly with what he's going to try go cover himself with coming down. His dair gets beat by my bair/fair/reverse hit of upair, fair/bair get beat by staying under him with proper upair spacing, and all but dair lose to throwing banana up at him, and all lose to shield grab. So it's more about me picking up on his falling habits and positioning properly for them, while hoping he doesn't start mixing things up too much. Although if he does the most horizontal up b and has a platform to wave bounce bacon too its hell. I still think Diddy wins though, even if I only get 2 hit combos and he kills me off one upthrow, neutral matters so much vs gnw and if I'm on point and call/position correctly for his spaced move/approaches I can deal with all of them other than like, pivot dtilt and retreating bair, both which give up space so I can just take that from him.

 

[Gooch]

I love it when people who dont even play a character know everything there is to know about it

This must be how @PMS | steelguttey feels when people say things about olimar

shut up you look like Sid From Ice Age

 

[Life]

Friendly reminder that GnW dtilt animation has basically never matched its actual hitbox duration.

 

[Downdraft]

Ok, but just want to know if the update brought several balance changes to change the tier list?

Btw, if some one has an official tier list for PM 3.5, can you link please?

There has never been an official tier list. PM is still young, and the updates aren't spread out enough for the true potential of many characters to be shown. I don't recall people having Mario or Mewtwo as top tier characters in 3.5. Where did you get that opinion?

 

[didds]

I don't play against gaw enough to know everything but I never liked animations lasting longer than hitboxes. Makes recognizing holes difficult and forces a rather silly mu knowledge aspect to the match since it's not intuitive at all

 

[Rᴏb]

You raise some good points @ Boiko , but I'm still leaning towards G&W being fine. Removing his ability to DJ after upbing would really hurt his ability to mix up his already predictable recovery and it would definitely hurt how imposing his punish game is, which is the only thing that imo that really brings G&W up the tierlist at this point... Not being able to punish his bad matchups as hard would definitely be frustrating, lol.

If I absolutely had to make a compromise, I'd probably make his upb similar to Mewtwo's in that he would be able to DJ after a grounded upb exclusively and thus keep more of his punish game than he would have otherwise lost.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

MD/VA is a stronger region than Texas

Lol

And here I thought Seagull's posts had useful content sometimes.

 

[Chevy]

GnW's tech and get-up animations are also very ambiguous. I'd rather his animations just be tweaked up to be a little bit more sensible in general. He's not terribly hard to edge-guard as long as you have a lingering hitbox, I'd rather see how he does when he's not janking people out with unclear animations before changing anything else.

 

[Nausicaa]

another thing thats left unnoticed in this patch in regards to rng is that olimar still has it. theres way to many things in this game that every character has but olimar doesnt because of olimar. grab armor, a projectile that doesnt lose to every other projectile (this isnt an exageration, side b loses to lasers) and most importantly a good recovery. im glad the tether is gone but the jetpack is ****. barely sweetspots, angling it doesnt do much, slow, easy to hit him out of and many other problems. its like they gave him stuff that is ridiculous like side b and fair as an excuse to keep the stuff that has held him back as a character for so long. its so frustrating patch after patch not seeing things like grab armor bein fixed. the worst part is when asked pmdt members just use the excuse that the pikmin is grabbing and not olimar. i shouldnt have to explain how dumb that is.

I mean, Ike was barely touched. Side B has 3 more frames of endlag when it already had 30ish (not that impatful IMO). And Ike's side b is less powerful and therefore less of a meaty attack option in neutral. But It doesn't even begin to address what people have a problem with, which is the mixup potential between quickdraw grab, quickdraw aerial/rar aerial, and quickdraw attack are such a potent triangle of options that there are no great answers to mitigate risk against them. This is STILL true...only now, your opponent gets less off of QD attack.

That, and they nerfed the one part of his recovery that 90% of people didn't even know he had (and weren't complaining about).

These things are at least part of what 'makes' the character.
Anything leaning towards 'more balanced' versions of them is a good thing, but eliminating them in a way that makes them NOT a center-piece to the character is how we lose cool traits rather than get them toned down.
The Grab stuff on Olimar is functional, despite how quirky and unique it is. It MAKES SENSE despite being not 'normal' at all.
The QD stuff on Ike is functional, despite how incredibly flexible and dynamic it is. It's no 'normal' but it can be made to fit.

I'd like to see more 'tiny' increments done to Ike's QD than have specific options WITHIN that stuff simply get really bad compared to others, or removed because they've been made too bad where other options aren't.
Flexible stuff is a good thing. Mewtwo TP > Hover > Aerial was REALLY COOL and MADE SENSE, but was essentially eliminated.
Toning it down a LOT (major lag after TP that it's almost unusable out of raw neutral) at least KEEPS THE OPTION even if it IS terrible. It would still have 'a' use, and that use would have to be worked with.
Ike's QD isn't on that level (and neither is Olimar's Grab stuff/etc), but I'm sure everyone would agree that THIS approach (more lag on the Side-B 'hit' one patch, more something on another patch) is BETTER than the opposite kind of tuning.

While this is going on...
Oli Neutral-B double-tapped turns into Grapple recovery plz?





Regarding this recent convo
"booppppbeep teebeep badup beeeeeeep bee..."
"leave me alone, I wanna do cool ****..."
G&W/Sonic/Snake/Mewtwo Up-B stuff.
Characters can have cool ****
Other characters of different kinds of BS **** that messes **** up like projectiles like Nanas and Lasers and PKF or tools that are free as **** to lead to **** RIGHT out of raw neutral like Roy-tilts and crazy DD grabs and Link Z-airs
Seriously.
Characters have cool unique quirky BUT FUNCTIONAL WITHIN THE GAME TO NOT BE BROKEN 'TOO' MUCH IN EITHER DIRECTION ****

1. Characters get cool stuff.
2. ?(smash happens)
3. Everyone is happy.

When stuff is OVERBOARD (buff C4 and Shoryuken more plz, and revert M2 TP and Sonic spin changes) THEN it's worth mentioning.

Puff doesn't have an Up-B, and Yoshi doesn't go anywhere with his.
Let Puff and Yoshi jump out of their Up-Bs plz, it's only fair because their Up-Bs are worse than others.
See? Works the other way too.

What's the consensus on Metaknight? I've been playing him a lot now in 3.6 and I really love him. Dtilt is sweet, Dair is sweet, Dthrow is more consistent, and of course weight increase is awesome. 3.5 MK just felt kinda empty, now he feels like a full character.

You basically summed it up. lol

I love it when people who dont even play a character know everything there is to know about it

This must be how @PMS | steelguttey feels when people say things about olimar

I don't play any particular character.
I play a game called "Don't get hit by the things you don't want to get hit by, and hit people with the things you want to hit them with."
People around here call it Smash.
People are confused.





tl;dr of all of this post


Let characters have cool ****
Just don't let the **** break 'too' much

 

[Oracle]

mmmmm all this trash talk reminds me of the top player thread from days past. keep it coming boyz see you at ltc3

 

[EmptySky00]

3.5 MK just felt kinda empty.

IM HERE!

 

[Strong Badam]

Friendly reminder that GnW dtilt animation has basically never matched its actual hitbox duration.

'Tis a general motif of his animation style, not something put on D-tilt specifically to make it more confusing.

 

[Nausicaa]

I've missed most of the trash talking about who's beating who... BEACUSE I'M BUSY TRASH-TALKING ALL YOUR ****TY IDEAS ABOUT HOW TO CHANGE COOL PROJECT M ****

**** you all. Leave the cool **** alone.
See if it's broke.
It it's broke, it will be fixed.
Fixed =/= sledge hammer.
Fixed = disassembled and reassembled to be as CLOSE to the cool **** as possible, but less broken.

In the meantime, PM has some pretty cool ****
Play the **** out of it.

 

[Ripple]

'Tis a general motif of his animation style, not something put on D-tilt specifically to make it more confusing.

well.......stop it

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

well.......stop it

How can Ice Samus play like 3.5 DDD? Been meaning to ask.

 

[Nausicaa]

Could use maybe a little flash when the hit-box stops but...

well.......stop it

You stop it.
It's cool and unique and quirky and isn't utterly breaking G&W.
He has a good D-Tilt.
And other stuff with cool Wario-like animations but more ambiguous (not as much as Oli though)
You stop it.

 

[Rᴏb]

One way to fix G&W's ambiguous hitbox problem would be to have the object he is hitting you with simply disappear as soon as it's hitboxes do. Currently, his nair, upair, and ftilt all function this way, and I could easily see his bair, fair, dair, fsmash, dsmash, uptilt and get-up attack work the same. I guess it just boils down who deserves to be happy, the G&W players who enjoy the quirk, or the people who feel they shouldn't have to learn about a character-specific quirk.

 

[Funbot28]

There has never been an official tier list. PM is still young, and the updates aren't spread out enough for the true potential of many characters to be shown. I don't recall people having Mario or Mewtwo as top tier characters in 3.5. Where did you get that opinion?

This vid

 

[Manaconda]

snip

lmao.

There is no official 3.5 tier list. Here's one made by SB, and even though there's disagreement I find it kind of okay.

 

[FirewaterDM]

So, just curious, and on a different topic- what change did IC"s get from 3.5 to 3.6 besides their movement glitches getting fixed. I'm not sure other than yay we can move in the direction we want to move in all of the time now, what benefits they actually gained from 3.5 to 3.6.

I mean yes they feel better, but I'm not too sure as to what else exists that helps the IC"s not lose to the exact same characters they lost to before, or have any buffs to fix their non-movement problems that exist currently. Does a character exist that they lost to solely because they were bugged that they would beat without bugs now?

 

[Boiko]

Regarding this recent convo
"booppppbeep teebeep badup beeeeeeep bee..."
"leave me alone, I wanna do cool ****..."
G&W/Sonic/Snake/Mewtwo Up-B stuff.
Characters can have cool ****
Other characters of different kinds of BS **** that messes **** up like projectiles like Nanas and Lasers and PKF or tools that are free as **** to lead to **** RIGHT out of raw neutral like Roy-tilts and crazy DD grabs and Link Z-airs
Seriously.
Characters have cool unique quirky BUT FUNCTIONAL WITHIN THE GAME TO NOT BE BROKEN 'TOO' MUCH IN EITHER DIRECTION ****

1. Characters get cool stuff.
2. ?(smash happens)
3. Everyone is happy.

When stuff is OVERBOARD (buff C4 and Shoryuken more plz, and revert M2 TP and Sonic spin changes) THEN it's worth mentioning.

Puff doesn't have an Up-B, and Yoshi doesn't go anywhere with his.
Let Puff and Yoshi jump out of their Up-Bs plz, it's only fair because their Up-Bs are worse than others.
See? Works the other way too.

This is the most nonsensical thing I've read in this thread so far.

 

[Manaconda]

So, just curious, and on a different topic- what change did IC"s get from 3.5 to 3.6 besides their movement glitches getting fixed.

Absolutely nothing. It's not unreasonable to assume the PMDT wants to see how they stand with the momentum glitch fixed and then make adjustments from there.

As to whether it changes MUs, it definitely makes the ICs harder to mess up with, so that's kind of like a little buff to every MU, even if they lost an infinite (I believe they had one?). Are there any that they lost solely because of the glitch? Possibly not.

 

[Nausicaa]

This is the most nonsensical thing I've read in this thread so far.

You haven't met me in person yet.
I could top that in a minute irl npnp

 

[Ripple]

How can Ice Samus play like 3.5 DDD? Been meaning to ask.

pressure someone until they shield for too long. then short hop

are you feeling like they're gonna jump? fair

no? missile to grab

mix ups include dair > jab and bomb > dair

 

[Experiment 5]

edit: never mind, I'm slow and dumb

 

[Life]

'Tis a general motif of his animation style, not something put on D-tilt specifically to make it more confusing.

Well you're not wrong about GnW having a lot of animations like that, but...

Spoiler

Just a few examples, but it's clearly not a 100% consistent thing.

I know he's probably a very strange character to animate clearly, and I doubt the PMDT's animators frequent this thread or are particularly influenced by it. It just seems weird to have a character that intentionally has a bunch of misleading animations.

I know this seems like way off the tier list topic here, but to be honest? People complain about (for example) Sonic's spins, but those are way more clear than GnW is. You don't really know where his hitboxes end unless you go into debug and memorize them yourself, whereas the hitboxes on almost every other character are obvious from the animation (with an odd exception here and there, such as Rest) and don't really require that level of research. And I do think it's relevant to GnW from a balance perspective, because people give the character more in-game respect than his hitboxes require specifically because he has misleading animations. If they were cleaned up (maybe not even all the way, just most of the way), maybe we'd find out that the character could use a little love, and he'd be a better character for it in the long run.