Tier List Speculation

[Ripple]

I have never been asked to provide feedback to any member of the DT on anything.

Maybe because addressing DDD 's issues is easier than revamping an entire characters design like bowser but who knows.

 

[Zoa]

On the subject of unnecessary nerfing...EmptySky00 posted a good point over in the Lucario forums. It's much slower to earn aura now. Removing aura gain on charge on shield was warranted. On top of that the aura gain from successful hits was nerfed from 1.2 to 1.0. Now using up taunt trades 5% for five aura points which is a tenth of the necessary amount to gain aura. Why slit his wrists to amass his resource on an already situational method when you've taken the opponent's stock?

 

[Frost | Odds]

I have never been asked to provide feedback to any member of the DT on anything.

Maybe because addressing DDD 's issues is easier than revamping an entire characters design like bowser but who knows.

I was never asked. I'm just way too invested in this game so I just volunteer my opinions and design work.

And @Nausicaa yeah, 3.6b took PM from merely being the best-balanced Smash title of all time, to being probably the best-balanced fighting game title of all time. No small feat.

 

[The_NZA]

I was never asked. I'm just way too invested in this game so I just volunteer my opinions and design work.

And @Nausicaa yeah, 3.6b took PM from merely being the best-balanced Smash title of all time, to being probably the best-balanced fighting game title of all time. No small feat.

I think my point is that hte process should probably include polling people like you both...Because otherwise its just "well this nerf is going to stick unless Big D or whatever Bowser player here says something". I think thats fundamnetally one of hte largest dangers with the way the PMDT is setup. It results in a lot of good patches but as we get closer to Gold, it results in really directionless patches like this one.

Its also just a strange way to approach balance. Buffs are handed out conservatively, except if you are Snake this patch. Nerfs are handed out liberally unless you were Wario, GnW, Ike, and some might argue Roy this patch. Its not conservative balance movement because there's no fear in just eliminating certain tools. But then there's an unwillingness to go in the other direction and buff with the degree they nerf in other directions.

I'll applaud the PMDT for the way they've handled Link since 3.02 because he's come out as one of the most rounded designed characters IMO. I really like what they've done with him at every step.

 

[Shokio]

I would just like to give my 2 cents:

Some characters have already been through this phase. Some of the userbases I see represented on here are going through things that other userbases already went through with the transition to 3.5. I can't remember where I made the post, but I remember saying that everyone calling fanbases crybabies over changes will go through the exact same thing once the Dev Team gets around to their character.

This is what I see happening. It's not for every character I've seen represented in this thread, but most.

The Pit, Zero Suit, Olimar, and Metaknight groups have all already gone through this. They were LIVID with the 3.5 changes. But now look, it's 3.6, and all 4 characters are actually designed and balanced really well and the fanbses largely feel that the characters are almost perfect in the spots they're in now (sans some VERY confused Olimar mains who actually think he's worse, God bless their souls).

So when you think your main is terrible because "they've lost so much", always keep in mind that other characters have already been through the nerfing and removal process, so it's not about your character being singled-out, mistreated, or anything like that.

Basically, all I'm saying is have some faith in the Dev Team. Someone in here touched on it a bitm but to reiterate, sometimes the Dev Team has to seemingly tear the character down, remove the jank/silliness before they can craft them into a well-designed character. It's a necessary process sometimes.

(I would also just like to add that whether Bowser is a worse character or not, I find him hella fun in 3.6 compared to 3.5.)

 

[Player -0]

I'm curious for the reason Pit's D-Smash was changed to send up. I'm guessing it was to focus his playstyle on a more juggle type and away from edgeguarding? Or to make him better at the spacie MU.

Just a change I'm curious about

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Someone was working on his hitboxes while drunk and forgot he wasn't Marth.

It happens. Pit and Marth are basically twins. Only Palutena could tell them apart.

 

[Life]

I'm curious for the reason Pit's D-Smash was changed to send up. I'm guessing it was to focus his playstyle on a more juggle type and away from edgeguarding? Or to make him better at the spacie MU.

Just a change I'm curious about

This is what I was talking about in my post about no-context changes. I feel that the new dsmash is perfectly fine and useful as a move; P0 thinks it's redundant with dtilt. But without knowing why any given change is made, it seems like a change that was pointless and not really thought out all that much.

 

[Professor Pro]

Its also just a strange way to approach balance. Buffs are handed out conservatively, except if you are Snake this patch.

It's dumb, because Snake was one of the best characters in 3.5, so why did one of the characters which needed nerfing in 3.5 get buffed in 3.6?

Serious question btw?

 

[DrinkingFood]

Bowser is faster in almost every way, honestly having a hard time believing he's not better, much less that he's much worse
I would be more likely to believe you are not yet adjusted to the changes properly yet, odds

 

[ELI-mination]

Holy ****
I'm so ****ing gahlike

 

[D e l t a]

Holy ****
I'm so ****ing gahlike

 

[Frost | Odds]

Bowser is faster in almost every way, honestly having a hard time believing he's not better, much less that he's much worse
I would be more likely to believe you are not yet adjusted to the changes properly yet, odds

I'm really glad that you've logged so many hours with both versions of Bowser, to make such a qualified pronouncement. Please, by all means, provide more details.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I'm really glad that you've logged so many hours with both versions of Bowser, to make such a qualified pronouncement. Please, by all means, provide more details.

Have you tried hitting them until they fly off the screen?

That usually works for me.

EDIT: Why did I become the DMG of this thread?

 

[foxygrandpa]

Kind of off topic with the thread-
I realize the sheik nerfs were probably good for balance, but all the spacies kept polarizing attributes while sheik was severely changed. It's not like she was invisible in the meta either, considering she's a melee character. There were a lot of things they could have done to her without scrapping her previous grab game entirely. It's kind of upsetting to think that this far in her design they just decided to change her so drastically whereas the other tops (roy,wolf) seem immune to all but minor changes. Hell, even fox wasn't changed as much in consideration to core playstyle.

I'll applaud the PMDT for the way they've handled Link since 3.02 because he's come out as one of the most rounded designed characters IMO. I really like what they've done with him at every step.

I really don't think link is well handled. I'm still under the impression that he loses to about everyone with decent mobility or a lingering hitbox to maneuver around his projectiles. Also, dthrow is kind of dumb. It leads to chaingrabs at higher mid percents on more than a couple of characters.
He's still towards the bottom of the roster, which really isn't saying much in this version, but I still think that he definitely warrants a couple more changes than most to normalize his MU spread.

 

[Sardonyx]

It's kind of upsetting to think that this far in her design they just decided to change her so drastically whereas the other tops (roy,wolf) seem immune to all but minor changes. Hell, even fox wasn't changed as much in consideration to core playstyle.

She kinda got the 3.02 -> 3.5 Zelda treatment
Gotta love changing good playstyles so they're less effective right?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I never thought I'd be so excited to see Mew2King use Marth and Sheik in PM.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I'm really glad that you've logged so many hours with both versions of Bowser, to make such a qualified pronouncement. Please, by all means, provide more details.

Weird that I have to log in that many hours to make judgements on bowser when you seem to be so direly informed on almost every character in the game (and particularly ROB) to know how they place relative to each other while probably having as little experience with them as I do with bowser. For what it's worth, I do have a secondary bowser, I just don't play any secondaries in tourney

 

[foxygrandpa]

She kinda got the 3.02 -> 3.5 Zelda treatment
Gotta love changing good playstyles so they're less effective right?

:/
I don't even mind that it's less effective and admit that her previous matchup spread was kind of over the top, but I do mind that she's boring. The previous grab system was a mixup and forced the sheik player to throw in line with the opponents tendencies and stage positioning, but always lead to a tech chase followup if done competently. The change doesn't even effect her option coverage as much as it does her ability to convery off a grab into a kill at higher percent. Now it's dthrow-->dthrow-->dthrow. She was changed inconsistently in the sense that she was one of the few characters that were altered in this version to be more like their melee counterpart. They could've done so many things to tone her down without making grab game so repetetive, like change the properties on her throws to send farther at higher percents, or changing her uthrow (which has always been nearly useless) to be a mixup throw instead of bthrow, so she couldn't grab for positioning as well or tech chase off two different grabs as well.

On a side note, it's strange that sheik lost her 50/50 while wario still has the bite mixup into free waft and mario has dthrow into everything. It's dumb.

I never thought I'd be so excited to see Mew2King use Marth and Sheik in PM.

Totally agree.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Weird that I have to log in that many hours to make judgements on bowser when you seem to be so direly informed on almost every character in the game (and particularly ROB) to know how they place relative to each other while probably having as little experience with them as I do with bowser. For what it's worth, I do have a secondary bowser, I just don't play any secondaries in tourney

Accusing me of lack of ability to adapt - and implying the associated baggage of me being bad/whiny/whatever - after I've spent months teaching every other bowser player how to adapt, and made a ton of posts on how to deal with the 3.6 changes; is entirely different from speculating about tier lists (ie. the point of this thread). tl;dr: whatever, dude

Bowser got a ton of tools taken away. He wasn't given any meaningful new ones other than klaw bthrow. Wavelands are broken. Bowser has no serious aerial or grounded threats, he's much worse at dealing with jumpy opponents, can't escape combos as well, has less range, no kill moves, and is much worse at exploiting opponents' being out of position.

I argued for weeks that Bowser was still fine - better than 3.5, even. It took a while to appreciate exactly how much the changes impacted his gameplay against informed opponents. They're still good changes, individually speaking - but the broken wavelands and lack of new tools to compensate the ones lost (when he was already a bottom 5 character) is completely crippling.

 

[Shokio]

Wait, I don't kill the no kill moves part. Bair? Fair? Uair? DSmash? UpSmash?

Am I missing something?

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

Wait, I don't kill the no kill moves part. Bair? Fair? Uair? DSmash? UpSmash?

Am I missing something?

I think he means that they're a bit slow and unsafe, so using them is extremely risky, compared to other characters who have followups out of throws/kill throws or safer kill moves in general.

 

[DrinkingFood]

bowser's kill options were always unsafe, in fact they should be way more safe now thanks to tons of speed improvements

 

[Shokio]

I think he means that they're a bit slow and unsafe, so using them is extremely risky, compared to other characters who have followups out of throws/kill throws or safer kill moves in general.

Wait a minute, most of his moves have been sped up in both startup and cooldown though, right? So essentially for a slightly weaker character, you get a more mobile and faster-attacking one, with weaker-but-safer kill options.

Am I getting this right?

 

[Chaloopy]

1) Captain Falcon feels great. Good job.
2) Ganon nair fits his characters better. All of Ganon's hit should be strong, no sour spots allowed. Good job.
3) ZSS seems better balanced. Good job probably.
I speculate that people will stop thinking Captain Falcon is a top 5 character in the coming months or maybe years. Top 10/15 seems right though.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I feel the waveland "bug" (is it confirmed a bug? is it confirmed anything but placebo?) is a relevant criticism but judging his viability on something that is unintentional and would likely be patch-fixed very soon would be silly.

I'm quadruple checking his changelist and all his nerfs sans dash attack seem very small, and all his buffs very big. Dash attack nerf sucks but I feel the hugely improved DD/dash speed and huge fire breath buff more than make up for it. It's like, he lost potential threat reach against non-shielding opponents from any one position (less follow-up ability) but his improved DD means his DD at any point is way safer (actually usable) and respecting flame-breath reach is more difficult now, meaning it's more important to try to challenge him in the air when he jumps or risk losing way more stage space if he lands a fire-breath close enough to hit you.

 

[EmptySky00]

I really don't think link is well handled. I'm still under the impression that he loses to about everyone with decent mobility or a lingering hitbox to maneuver around his projectiles. Also, dthrow is kind of dumb. It leads to chaingrabs at higher mid percents on more than a couple of characters.
He's still towards the bottom of the roster, which really isn't saying much in this version, but I still think that he definitely warrants a couple more changes than most to normalize his MU spread.

In what world is Dthrow stupid? It's a frame 11 grab that doesn't grab in the air and has ~75 frames of endlag. Stop getting grabbed by Link. Other characters have equally good or better conversions out of throws but have an actual grab. I'd be outright ****ing offended if Link didn't get anything good off of grab. No Samus intended.

She kinda got the 3.02 -> 3.5 Zelda treatment
Gotta love changing good playstyles so they're less effective right?

Zelda was terrible in 3.02 along with her playstyle. I don't get why Zelda players jerk to her in 3.02. She was objectively bad. She became a far better designed character and gained a Din's fire with some actual mild use.

 

[420IkeGodxx]

Fox and Falco are still the best characters (besides Ike) what the ****?

 

[DrinkingFood]

In what world is Dthrow stupid? It's a frame 11 grab that doesn't grab in the air and has ~75 frames of endlag. Stop getting grabbed by Link. Other characters have equally good or better conversions out of throws but have an actual grab. I'd be outright ****ing offended if Link didn't get anything good off of grab. No Samus intended.

Zelda was terrible in 3.02 along with her playstyle. I don't get why Zelda players jerk to her in 3.02. She was objectively bad. She became a far better designed character and gained a Din's fire with some actual mild use.

frame eleven grab isn't unusable, considering the grounded space it covers it's entirely good for dash away to force whiffs->pivot grab, as well as punishing moves that are normally safe when spaced well on shield against close-range grabs but lose to a tether grab's better reach. Not to mention any number of ways to set-up for it mid punishment, from jab/bair/weak nair to reset knockback on an aerial opponent+force landing (character/DR dependant dependant), any number of aerial options at different percents if the opponent doesn't CC, jab resets/tech chasing, other specific ones.

I'm not supporting his claim that dthrow is stupid, just disagreeing with yours that people shouldn't get grabbed by link

 

[Juushichi]

Yeah, idk I feel like I can still grab people just fine with Link. Especially where there's a nice big sword that may get them to start sheilding.

 

[The_NZA]

I think Link is a poster boy of how to balance the game because he came out the gates as extremely strong, and the PMDT scaled him back in 3.02 by creating a weakness (recovery) while maintaining what made him so good (projectile spacing, strong punish game, jab jab frametraps, a MEATY fair and dair that weren't nerfed despite calls to do so, and his bombs/hookshot game in tact). I, and many others, dispute the idea that he's low tier--not many players play him, but Sol from MA who has HUGE problems with the way he plays (less than optimal) brought the noise to Kage and Ally in Montreal. There's no reason to think in the hands of a better player he can't perform. He's mid tier, but there will always be mid tiers.

I want to address a couple points that were brought up and I recognize I kind of paint a target on my back when I do so. I value the PMDT and PM is the best game I've ever played. I also think my criticisms are akin to nitpicking since 95% or 98% of the process is working and has created the best Smash game in history. When I criticize, its in the name of bettering the game rather than lambasting the PMDT for sport (I know that happens a lot and I don't want it to seem like i'm ungratefully doing so).

All of this talk is nice

3.5 came through and made this new ground-work built on the old. On an already stabilizing game of 'strong' characters competing with unique tools and quirks that simply fleshed out to be jank is some key areas. Which was a given to have happen when you're trying to re-invent what could be the most diverse Smash game that may ever be made.

3.6 as an extension to this CANNOT be an entire remold and tuning toward the better, or it would end up going through the same cycle again.

Nausica, you kind of have a stream-of-consciousness form of writing so excuse me if I misinterpret, but I boil down your post to 2 points.

1. the one I quoted--They tore down the entire edifice to bring us 3.5. It was the proverbial ripping of the bandaid--painful, but necessary. If the PMDT made 3.6 a buff patch, they would risk repeating the cycle of massive construction and massive teardown again.

2. In a balanced game, the cast of character dynamics have to be determined based on a "pole", and at the start of PM, that pole was Fox through Falcon. This pole has to be a known quantity. As the game has evolved, wouldn't we want that pole to be the characters the PMDT best understands.

My counter argument is simple. Everything between 1.0-3.5 hasn't been based inherently on careful stable balance. Its been based on fulfilling deep character design and character identity. Mewtwo, Lucas, Pit, and Diddy weren't the best characters in 3.02 because they were balanced to be so. In fact, Diddy and Pit if I remember correctly were hardly touched in 2.5 or 3.02, Lucas was introduced into the game in 2.5 and the things that make him good were barely touched, and Mewtwo was new in 3.02. Everyone's power levels were realized under the justification of "Well, Fox McCloud has shine, free healthcare, AND a 401k, surely there's room in the budget for..." which created the power disparity that we saw.

The deconstruction that followed in 3.5 was needed, but it was also unprecedented. It was mostly handled well, with a couple characters being seriously mishandled (Ness and Metaknight both lost essential things and were given no compensation) and Olimar/ICs being buggy. But the PMDT at the time argued at the time that nerfs would be endemic and it would be hard to know where characters like Ness/Metaknight would fall in the reshaped metagame. I wasn't happy about it because I was sure taking away Ness's two most important attributes (that I agreed were toxic) without compensation would polarize the character tremendously. But I could appreciate their argument that 3.5 would change things for everyone.

By the end of 3.5, we had a clear sense over who the top 8-10 characters were, and who the bottom 5-8 characters were, and everyone else was healthily in the middle. I was excited to see 3.6 hit because the game had hit some stability and there was clear understanding of the power dynamics and even with Fox at the top, it still didn't feel Toxic like 3.02. Right before 3.5 launched, I saw several PMDT members saying "Fox is too risky to balance towards.The new gold standard is to make everyone Melee Sheik tier" so that's what I expected from 3.6. That was the last espoused balance "thesis" that I'd heard come out of the PMDT, so I had no reason to think the wiser.

Now, its 3.6, and i'm wondering "is the shiek standard still intact? What exactly is the balance theory or plan that the PMDT follows?" If 3.5's mission statement was cut the fat, then what are we doing right now? Balance typically cycles and oscillates between buffs and nerfs on an individual character to character basis until balance is achieved. You break down, you build up, you break down again if necessary, and you build up, each high and low being less extreme than the last one, until you achieve balance. Nausica-- you can't be afraid of buffing a character or a set of characters because "it might lead to another 3.02".That's literally being afraid to buff characters because it might imbalance the game.

Everyone knew that 3.6 was a known quantity. It wasn't going to be this crazy thing like 3.5 where it would be hard to predict what would happen. My presumption was "the top and high tiers: Fox, Sheik, Lucario, Roy, Toon Link, Wolf, Ike, and Diddy will have aspects toned down," high/Mid tiers like GnW, Wario, Luigi, Yoshi will have questionable design carryovers like bite-> waft removed, and either be compensated, or not. Mid tiers like Squirtle, DDD, majority of the cast will have whatever design flaws resolved (gordo dashing) and wont see nerfs because they were already below the high tier. If they had to have some design aspect nerfed, they would be compensated. The bottom 8 characters would see buffs, and if they had design nerfs they'd see even bigger buffs to compensate (Bowser, Ness).

It wasn't a difficult assumption to make and I think thats the presumption MOST people would make. That you could add a buff here and there to bring people up to that top 8 characters level without breaking the game this time. In the process I laid out, there are three cardinal rules. 1. nerf the top, 2. buff the bottom, 3. compensate design changes that act as nerfs subtly for all characters who are not in the top.

You can argue this is exactly what they HAVE been doing. Its just slow on a patch -> patch basis, but seeing as your patches go from 6 months to a year, and most games last for 4 years before they fall off, it is paramount to handle the nerf/buff process at the same time now that the metagame has been stable. At least in Bowsers case, I can appreciate an attempt was made at doing both and they fell short. In the DDD case, what happened is preposterous--there were literally no unknowns. The end result was obvious.

So yeah, basically I think this patch has little in line with a "design thesis" and that strikes me as a problem. There's still jank, there are top and high tiers that were hardly touched while others were handled with some negligence. There are low tiers that were nerfed for no good reason, and there were low tiers that weren't balanced as carefully. I think at the very least we are at a point where the PMDT should make it policy to bring on highly skilled players to test builds interim and voice their concerns DIRECTLY to the rest of the PMDT. That would go a long way to making sure characters aren't mishandled. It shouldn't have to be Odds passion that gets him in front of a PMDT member. It should be the other way around.

It's dumb, because Snake was one of the best characters in 3.5, so why did one of the characters which needed nerfing in 3.5 get buffed in 3.6?

Serious question btw?

I know i'm in the minority here in thinking this, but I always felt like Snake was the 5th best character in 3.02. Grab confirms into pocket a death for later, spike setups, and most importantly, the best OOS move in the game were all reasons for me to think that. Cypher was invincible frames 1-4 with a hitbox on frame 5 and 6. My old joke was the difference between 3.02 shine and cypher is that cypher is invincible the first frame it comes out. C4 as a recovery mixup I also felt was insanely powerful.

When 3.5 came out, I predicted 3 things.

1. GnW would be intolerable in the new metagame, and would be unfitting because of the way his upb functioned.
2. Lucario was going to be godlike without a recovery nerf
3. Snake was going to be silly and not fitting with the design goals of the game if he can still use C4 the way it has been used.

To talk about Snake, I like the ways they've buffed him in this patch to make him stronger on the ground and air without leaning on C4 to do the work. But i've always felt like his C4 is one of the worst designed things in this game. There's only so far you can go before the luster of "oh he just pocketed a kill on that character. Next time he gets a grab at any percent between 70-180% is assured death" becomes extremely lame. Using tranq to make these links more consistent--also lame. Grenade camping in shield is lame. Port priority mattering is lame. But I digress.

The Snake I want to see has even more extreme buffs than those found in this patch, but his C4 is completely different. The hypest thing about snake is when C4 is used as a combo extender rather than a finisher. I always wanted a C4 with middle base knockback, low knockback growth, the ability to cancel out of the detonation animation very quickly so you can string them into fairs/dairs/bairs/uairs. I would have made it so C4 bombing and teching off stages was nerfed a lot, and maybe made cipher rise you faster as a compensatory buff that fits more in line with other recoveries. This faster cipher would allow you to get those links after using c4 by intercepting them in the air.

instead of uthrow -> uair -> C4, I would have liked to see uthrow to jump C4 cipher up to chase, and fair spike them. Things like that. I would have also touched up his aerials to better fit this purpose by adding in sourspots to things that would synergize with Mines and the like. I dunno, i'd have ot test things to try it, but I still think Snake in his current forms is one of the more abhorrent characters in the game. His concept is interesting but his execution seems a little simplistic. That's my opinion anyhow. Him and GnW would both do well with some Ganon levels of redesign.

 

[Frost | Odds]

bowser's kill options were always unsafe, in fact they should be way more safe now thanks to tons of speed improvements

No. His only reliable kill option before was fair, and that was more or less removed - again, exactly as it should be. There's just no reliable substitute now. Koopa Klaw exists now, but lacks knockback, and is still very short-ranged and has very negative disjoint (on the grab box).

Wait a minute, most of his moves have been sped up in both startup and cooldown though, right? So essentially for a slightly weaker character, you get a more mobile and faster-attacking one, with weaker-but-safer kill options.

Am I getting this right?

No. Some moves got sped up. Some moves had reduced cooldown. Some moves got increased cooldown, or had other properties changed such that the extra speed is irrelevant.

Talking about the changes in extremely general terms like this is helpful to nobody - we need to go into specifics if we're going to talk about it at all.


Bowser's Kill Options

FSmash - Was all but useless before, but had very niche applications in edgeguarding. Even more useless now, because its armor was effectively reduced to Light(from Heavy), the hitbox size and lingering was reduced, and the kill power was reduced by something that feels like an order of magnitude. This would all be great, if the move were meaningfully faster- but it's not. It still has a 30 frame startup - a 4 frame reduction from 34 makes absolutely zero difference in situations where the move is usable. For comparison, Charizard's fsmash has almost the exact same knockback, and only a 16 frame startup. Zard's fsmash is just as powerful and twice as fast. The other changes to Bowser's fsmash were great, but only on the condition that it gets an enormous reduction in its startup, to 23 frames or so; thereby allowing Bowser to actually punish some moves with it.

DSmash - Improved in most ways, but the knockback angle is now both high and very DI-interactive, meaning that it's very difficult to actually kill anyone with it at anything like a reasonable %. This is still a better move than most Bowser players give it credit for in terms of tech chasing and option coverage, but it's not a kill move.

USmash - This is faster and better now, yeah - but it's still relatively slow, still only hits above Bowser (where you shouldn't be anyway), and no longer has intangibility, meaning it's actually incredibly easy to challenge.

Note that all the smashes' armor levels were reduced from Heavy (in f/usmash's case) and Medium (in dsmash's case) to Light -- that you can charge the smash to increase the armor level is irrelevant in tournament play, which I really shouldn't need to explain further. This is a pretty serious nerf.

FTilt - Made very slightly faster, but weaker, and much shorter ranged. You could debate all day whether this is a nerf or a buff, but it's sure as hell not the buff Bowser needs.

Fair - Made dramatically weaker as a kill move. Slightly better at comboing, but it still hurts for Bowser to lose his (by far) best kill option. The change was warranted, but Bowser really needs major improvements to his kill power elsewhere to compensate for losing one of the best kill moves in the game. Because of changes to bowser's size and his dash attack, it's also much more difficult to link into this from other moves in Bowser's kit.

Uair - Kill power nerfed pretty significantly; not to mention that it's nearly impossible to get this now with the new endlag and physics of Koopa Klaw fthrow. The change to uair itself was also great, but again, only provided that it could be linked into fairly reliably from side B.

Side B - Fair no longer links into anything, under most circumstances - so bthrow is Bowser's only reasonable option unless you simply intend to put your opponent offstage with the fthrow. Even if you do manage to link into a fair or a uair with this, they both kill much later, so this functionally became much, much worse against most opponents. In addition, the armor on the grounded version went from Heavy to nothing, so you can no longer grab jump-ins with this - a major loss against rushdown characters like Fox.

So, I'm really not exaggerating when I say that Bowser has zero meaningful kill options in some matchups, now - unless you count the easily DI-able sideB. Usmash doesn't kill fastfallers at a relevant %, and hitting them at all with an ftilt or fsmash is completely laughable, not that it would kill them even if either move connected.

Allow me to repeat that Zard's fsmash has nearly identical knockback, far more range, is twice as fast, and is attached to a dramatically stronger character than Bowser's. Ike's has even more knockback and huge disjoint, and is still 7 frames faster than Bowser's.

Why is it necessary for Bowser's fsmash to be one of the worst moves in the game? Why can't it be one of his strengths, as strongly implied by his character design and aesthetic? I'm not upset that Bowser sucks in this version, because that's kind of a necessary step in the design process. I am upset at whatever blindingly obvious bias resulted in one of the most useless moves in the game (which has the potential to easily be made very useful and fun) being made even worse. Whoever's responsible for vetoing necessary changes to fsmash should be ashamed.

 

[The_NZA]

No. His only reliable kill option before was fair, and that was more or less removed - again, exactly as it should be. There's just no reliable substitute now. Koopa Klaw exists now, but lacks knockback, and is still very short-ranged and has very negative disjoint (on the grab box).


No. Some moves got sped up. Some moves had reduced cooldown. Some moves got increased cooldown, or had other properties changed such that the extra speed is irrelevant.

Talking about the changes in extremely general terms like this is helpful to nobody - we need to go into specifics if we're going to talk about it at all.


Bowser's Kill Options

FSmash - Was all but useless before, but had very niche applications in edgeguarding. Even more useless now, because its armor was effectively reduced to Light(from Heavy), the hitbox size and lingering was reduced, and the kill power was reduced by something that feels like an order of magnitude. This would all be great, if the move were meaningfully faster- but it's not. It still has a 30 frame startup - a 4 frame reduction from 34 makes absolutely zero difference in situations where the move is usable. For comparison, Charizard's fsmash has almost the exact same knockback, and only a 16 frame startup. Zard's fsmash is just as powerful and twice as fast. The other changes to Bowser's fsmash were great, but only on the condition that it gets an enormous reduction in its startup, to 23 frames or so; thereby allowing Bowser to actually punish some moves with it.

DSmash - Improved in most ways, but the knockback angle is now both high and very DI-interactive, meaning that it's very difficult to actually kill anyone with it at anything like a reasonable %. This is still a better move than most Bowser players give it credit for in terms of tech chasing and option coverage, but it's not a kill move.

USmash - This is faster and better now, yeah - but it's still relatively slow, still only hits above Bowser (where you shouldn't be anyway), and no longer has intangibility, meaning it's actually incredibly easy to challenge.

Note that all the smashes' armor levels were reduced from Heavy (in f/usmash's case) and Medium (in dsmash's case) to Light -- that you can charge the smash to increase the armor level is irrelevant in tournament play, which I really shouldn't need to explain further. This is a pretty serious nerf.

FTilt - Made very slightly faster, but weaker, and much shorter ranged. You could debate all day whether this is a nerf or a buff, but it's sure as hell not the buff Bowser needs.

Fair - Made dramatically weaker as a kill move. Slightly better at comboing, but it still hurts for Bowser to lose his (by far) best kill option. The change was warranted, but Bowser really needs major improvements to his kill power elsewhere to compensate for losing one of the best kill moves in the game. Because of changes to bowser's size and his dash attack, it's also much more difficult to link into this from other moves in Bowser's kit.

Uair - Kill power nerfed pretty significantly; not to mention that it's nearly impossible to get this now with the new endlag and physics of Koopa Klaw fthrow. The change to uair itself was also great, but again, only provided that it could be linked into fairly reliably from side B.

Side B - Fair no longer links into anything, under most circumstances - so bthrow is Bowser's only reasonable option unless you simply intend to put your opponent offstage with the fthrow. Even if you do manage to link into a fair or a uair with this, they both kill much later, so this functionally became much, much worse against most opponents. In addition, the armor on the grounded version went from Heavy to nothing, so you can no longer grab jump-ins with this - a major loss against rushdown characters like Fox.

So, I'm really not exaggerating when I say that Bowser has zero meaningful kill options in some matchups, now - unless you count the easily DI-able sideB. Usmash doesn't kill fastfallers at a relevant %, and hitting them at all with an ftilt or fsmash is completely laughable, not that it would kill them even if either move connected.

Allow me to repeat that Zard's fsmash has nearly identical knockback, far more range, is twice as fast, and is attached to a dramatically stronger character than Bowser's. Ike's has even more knockback and huge disjoint, and is still 7 frames faster than Bowser's.

Why is it necessary for Bowser's fsmash to be one of the worst moves in the game? Why can't it be one of his strengths, as strongly implied by his character design and aesthetic? I'm not upset that Bowser sucks in this version, because that's kind of a necessary step in the design process. I am upset at whatever blindingly obvious bias resulted in one of the most useless moves in the game (which has the potential to easily be made very useful and fun) being made even worse. Whoever's responsible for vetoing necessary changes to fsmash should be ashamed.

How do you feel about armor being tied to charging smash attacks? That seems pretty useful (although i don't know if its better than the alternative). Do the changes make Bowser more oriented towards reliably setting up edgeguard situations, since thats where he excels far past other characters (ledge jump speed and insane bair). Does nair kill?

 

[NWRL]

I honestly don't see why PMDT doesn't just take cues from Smash 4 Bowser, Sakurai managed to make Bowser a usable character in that game. A local Bowser who was consistently getting top 5 at locals is now not even making top 8. The same Bowser can't take games off of my Ike (who he had no trouble beating in 3.5), and is now considering changing characters because of how the patch changed the character.

 

[Frost | Odds]

How do you feel about armor being tied to charging smash attacks? That seems pretty useful (although i don't know if its better than the alternative).

Another solid change, in and of itself. It helps reduce the significance of armor overall, while still allowing it to be relevant; plus rewarding Bowser for charging his smashes - at least in theory.

I have never once found opportunity to charge a smash to take advantage of this, though. In practice, outside of casual play it's just a simple, hard nerf.

Do the changes make Bowser more oriented towards reliably setting up edgeguard situations, since thats where he excels far past other characters (ledge jump speed and insane bair). Does nair kill?

No, and no. The biggest reason for the former is probably the gutted dash attack - which used to lead pretty reliably into juggles or fairs, which then led into edgeguard situations. Now Bowser kinda has no way to reliably put anyone offstage. Nair is still a really good move, and I'm glad that it's less degenerate than before (the heavy armor was too much), but it's not nearly enough to compensate for the rest of Bowser's current situation.

 

[Juushichi]

Is Bowser even a viable Smash 4 character? I sure as hell don't see any relevant ones at top level.

 

[NWRL]

He's like high mid tier

 

[Boiko]

Someone super/heavy (not sure of how charged it was) armored through my recovery and killed me at 50% with an fsmash since I can't sweet spot from below. Same person also predicted where Zelda was going to teleport onstage and beat the burst of her recovery with a charged up smash. I don't think it's all bad. I understand charge armor is objectively worse than straight heavy armor, but I think we all agree that heavy armor was kind of bad design.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Is Bowser even a viable Smash 4 character? I sure as hell don't see any relevant ones at top level.

lolno. Even with a relatively fast fsmash, he still manages to be trash tier in that game. Making that move usable would clearly make him OP and completely ruin PM.

Someone super/heavy (not sure of how charged it was) armored through my recovery and killed me at 50% with an fsmash since I can't sweet spot from below. Same person also predicted where Zelda was going to teleport onstage and beat the burst of her recovery with a charged up smash. I don't think it's all bad. I understand charge armor is objectively worse than straight heavy armor, but I think we all agree that heavy armor was kind of bad design.

I stand corrected. Bowser can edgeguard the most edgeguardable character in the game, with Fsmash. Clearly not completely useless.

I'm quadruple checking his changelist and all his nerfs sans dash attack seem very small, and all his buffs very big. Dash attack nerf sucks but I feel the hugely improved DD/dash speed and huge fire breath buff more than make up for it. It's like, he lost potential threat reach against non-shielding opponents from any one position (less follow-up ability) but his improved DD means his DD at any point is way safer (actually usable) and respecting flame-breath reach is more difficult now, meaning it's more important to try to challenge him in the air when he jumps or risk losing way more stage space if he lands a fire-breath close enough to hit you.

1. DD and dash speed really weren't improved much. It looks much more significant on paper than it is in game.

2. Fire breath is only like 10 or 15% longer. If you think that compensates for the loss of all his good moves, great. I suggest you switch to Bowser and attempt to win any tournament, anywhere.

Sorry, I don't think this contributes. Eventually I figured out that I'm more or less ignorant of ROB's stuff and stopped fighting you about it. Please give me the same courtesy and stop spreading misinformation.

 

[Draco_The]

It's funny how Odds is repeating again what I said earlier (Bowser losing important tools while getting nothing, light armor on charge animation isn't worth nerfs on the armor of the smash attacks, fsmash going from almost useless to garbage, still gets combo'd pretty easily and more) yet he has more people agreeing with him based just on likes and no indirect "bad Bowser main" insults just for saying that all the armor nerfs were huge because he got nothing in return.