Tier List Speculation

[MLGF]

Odds is more credible, that's really all there is to it.

 

[Boiko]

I stand corrected. Bowser can edgeguard the most edgeguardable character in the game, with Fsmash. Clearly not completely useless.

Lol. I'm not trying to correct you. Certain moves have niche uses. Bowser's fsmash is one of them. Yes, it hits seven frames slower than Ike's with comparable KB. Ike's doesn't have armor though, instead it has disjoint. They're just different, you can't really compare them.

I get what you're saying: Bowser doesn't have reliable kill options, which is strange considering his character archetype.

I was just with Deff the other day at a tourney in Philly and he seemed to be doing sick things with Bowser. He used Yoshi against me in bracket so I only played his Bowser in doubles, but he still seemed fine and he was cleaning up a lot of other people. He only lost to me and his crewmate, who knew exactly how to play against him. Darkblues is also still doing pretty well.

 

[Frost | Odds]

It's funny how Odds is repeating again what I said earlier (Bowser losing important tools while getting nothing, light armor on charge animation isn't worth nerfs on the armor of the smash attacks, fsmash going from almost useless to garbage, still gets combo'd pretty easily and more) yet he has more people agreeing with him based just on likes and no indirect "bad Bowser main" insults just for saying that all the armor nerfs were huge because he got nothing in return.

It's unfortunate that you and Zigludo were factually correct and not recognized for it - and I apologize for my part in that. That said, I still think it's possible that you may have jumped to your conclusions too early - getting mad about nerfs isn't really productive, and the negativity that was (is?) reigning on the Bowser boards and Skype chat kinda wasn't very cool. It's important to try our damnedest to adapt to changes before bringing up complaints. Hell, even now it's possible I may be premature with complaining about Bowser's lack of buffs, but I believe I've done my due diligence.

There's still cool stuff you can do with 3.6b Bowser, and if you're not already winning tournaments with Bowser regularly, then I'd recommend sticking with him; because your results probably won't be terribly meaningfully affected and hopefully 3.6 full fixes most of the problems.

Lol. I'm not trying to correct you. Certain moves have niche uses. Bowser's fsmash is one of them. Yes, it hits seven frames slower than Ike's with comparable KB. Ike's doesn't have armor though, instead it has disjoint. They're just different, you can't really compare them.

I get what you're saying: Bowser doesn't have reliable kill options, which is strange considering his character archetype.

I was just with Deff the other day at a tourney in Philly and he seemed to be doing sick things with Bowser. He used Yoshi against me in bracket so I only played his Bowser in doubles, but he still seemed fine and he was cleaning up a lot of other people. He only lost to me and his crewmate, who knew exactly how to play against him. Darkblues is also still doing pretty well.

Bowser was always pretty bad, but managed to get by due to opponents' lack of matchup knowledge. I wouldn't accuse you of being a bad player because that'd be blatantly, obviously untrue -- but because Bowser is such a weird/unusual matchup to play against, almost literally everyone is extremely awful at it. Koopa Klaw is really fast now - I fully expect it to regularly catch a lot of players off guard, and make Bowser seem a lot stronger than he is, especially coupled with the longer ranged flames, which will have a distinct effect on his neutral game in some matchups. As people adapt, though, it will become more and more apparent how terrible Bowser really is - as we've already seen in Smash 4, where he was initially thought to be top tier, but is now known to be trash.

You can still do cool things with Bowser, and people can still lose to him, in exactly the same way that you can do cool things and occasionally eke out wins with Melee low tier characters. That doesn't mean that it's practical, or that Bowser is even in the same league as the rest of the cast in terms of power right now. I can't emphasize enough that I could literally go Random in tournament, and have a pretty reasonable chance (probably 30-40%) of performing better with whatever character came up, than I would with my main of a year and a half.

I don't make these kinds of claims lightly - and I'm generally all about adaptation over complaining about balance on forums - that's one thing the Melee community has absolutely right. Right now, though, I'm willing to stake my reputation on Bowser needing buffs on a level nearly unprecedented (to my knowledge) in PM.

EDIT: Also, regarding the fsmash, Light armor and very short range is not even remotely comparable to a move that's stronger, has vastly more range, and huge disjoint, and is seven frames faster. You know as well as I do that light armor is functionally utterly useless in any situation where fsmash may be used. I have more respect for you than that, please justify it.

 

[Boiko]

Bowser was always pretty bad, but managed to get by due to opponents' lack of matchup knowledge. I wouldn't accuse you of being a bad player because that'd be blatantly, obviously untrue -- but because Bowser is such a weird/unusual matchup to play against, almost literally everyone is extremely awful at it. Koopa Klaw is really fast now - I fully expect it to regularly catch a lot of players off guard, and make Bowser seem a lot stronger than he is, especially coupled with the longer ranged flames, which will have a distinct effect on his neutral game in some matchups. As people adapt, though, it will become more and more apparent how terrible Bowser really is - as we've already seen in Smash 4, where he was initially thought to be top tier, but is now known to be trash.

You can still do cool things with Bowser, and people can still lose to him, in exactly the same way that you can do cool things and occasionally eke out wins with Melee low tier characters. That doesn't mean that it's practical, or that Bowser is even in the same league as the rest of the cast in terms of power right now. I can't emphasize enough that I could literally go Random in tournament, and have a pretty reasonable chance (probably 30-40%) of performing better with whatever character came up, than I would with my main of a year and a half.

I don't make these kinds of claims lightly - and I'm generally all about adaptation over complaining about balance on forums - that's one thing the Melee community has absolutely right. Right now, though, I'm willing to stake my reputation on Bowser needing buffs on a level nearly unprecedented (to my knowledge) in PM.

Yeah, I mean, personally I have no trouble with Bowser. I think he has a lot of unique strengths that are difficult to deal with until you figure them out, but once you do, he's pretty mediocre. I've always kind of felt that way.

What buffs do you recommend for him to make him more viable?

 

[Chevy]

@ Frost | Odds I generally respect most of your views and you obviously know more than all of us about the character. But you constantly make rushed and extreme opinions and huge overstatements. Bowser does not lack kill options at all. Sure he doesn't have anything like Knee or Fox up-air, but f-air/n-air will usually send off stage and b-air will almost always kill at any reasonable percent. He doesn't outright kill people from on-stage(and maybe that's something he should be able to do) but he is still insanely good at edgeguarding, one of the reasons I like playing Bowser is because it's so damn easy to kill people in any vulnerable position. Obviously it's harder to put people in those positions when they are better at the match-up, but I really don't see how he can't secure kills. I also never thought f-smash was bad and still think it has niche uses. Moves that reward so insanely well on one read can't really be that bad. (In 3.5) Now it's just sorta OK.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I probably shouldn't discuss those on here, because this is the Tier List thread, not the Tell The PMDT How To Do Their Own Damn Jobs thread. Bowser's current spot on the tier list is relevant to the thread; my suggestions are not.

Anyway, I've already been discussing this stuff with them on Skype. I obviously have no authority, and they've no obligation to listen to me; but here's hoping.

 

[steelguttey]

pmdt (and fighting game dev teams across the world) need to realize that the archetype of "slow and makes you do dumb stuff" without having any presence other than being sp00ky doesnt work because they all suck. armor means you have to press a button in the first place, big hitboxes means you have to let them in first and burst movement is only burst movement if you cant move in the first place. give them gimmick projectiles or something that makes them scary in a full screen situation, or at least half screen. flame breath is a good start but the move is still ass

 

[EmptySky00]

frame eleven grab isn't unusable, considering the grounded space it covers it's entirely good for dash away to force whiffs->pivot grab, as well as punishing moves that are normally safe when spaced well on shield against close-range grabs but lose to a tether grab's better reach. Not to mention any number of ways to set-up for it mid punishment, from jab/bair/weak nair to reset knockback on an aerial opponent+force landing (character/DR dependant dependant), any number of aerial options at different percents if the opponent doesn't CC, jab resets/tech chasing, other specific ones.

I'm not supporting his claim that dthrow is stupid, just disagreeing with yours that people shouldn't get grabbed by link

You can CC any of those and jab grab isn't guaranteed. You can buffer spot dodge then graciously accept your free punish. At full length it hits on frame 17. If you're using a move against a tether that's THAT unsafe with its only saving grace being distance, then you're doing it wrong. Pivot grab is good but link doesn't have the dash speed to facilitate easily forcing whiffs in such a manner. He's not marth.

Aside from the opportunity for you to lecture other people about their characters yet again, What I actually meant was that he shouldn't be getting grabbed by Link often enough for him to consider Dthrow problematic. He has to work for that grab and it's high risk. You shouldn't be handing him umpteen opportunities to grab you, and if you are then that's completely on you. I wasn't suggesting that one should never be grabbed by link. So whatever.

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ Frost | Odds I generally respect most of your views and you obviously know more than all of us about the character. But you constantly make rushed and extreme opinions and huge overstatements. Bowser does not lack kill options at all. Sure he doesn't have anything like Knee or Fox up-air, but f-air/n-air will usually send off stage and b-air will almost always kill at any reasonable percent. He doesn't outright kill people from on-stage(and maybe that's something he should be able to do) but he is still insanely good at edgeguarding, one of the reasons I like playing Bowser is because it's so damn easy to kill people in any vulnerable position. Obviously it's harder to put people in those positions when they are better at the match-up, but I really don't see how he can't secure kills. I also never thought f-smash was bad and still think it has niche uses. Moves that reward so insanely well on one read can't really be that bad. (In 3.5) Now it's just sorta OK.

Alright, let's examine your claims.

But you constantly make rushed and extreme opinions and huge overstatements

I've been guilty of this in the past, but many of my 'extreme' opinions have since been validated as correct. See: my complaints about 2.6 Ivysaur, 3.02 Mewtwo, 3.5 ROB long before any of those characters were considered strong or even relevant by most of the playerbase. As for the current issue, as I said, I felt exactly the same way about everyone who was saying that Bowser was overly nerfed - check the Bowser boards; you won't have difficulty finding my posts praising the changes, and telling the complainers to man up and adapt and give it some time. It's plausible that I'm being too hasty, but not terribly likely.

Bowser does not lack kill options at all. Sure he doesn't have anything like Knee or Fox up-air, but f-air/n-air will usually send off stage and b-air will almost always kill at any reasonable percent

Bair can get kills, yes - hell, it's probably my main source of kills in this patch. I'd have listed it in my previous post about Bowser's kill options, but it was pretty much unchanged in the patch, and we were discussing changes. 'Sending offstage' is an entirely different notion from 'killing', however, especially given the preponderance of characters (such as Luigi) who are all but immune to Bowser's edgeguards.

Don't get me wrong, Bowser still has some of the strongest edgeguards in the game -- but for a character as big and slow and clunky and easy to combo and with as terrible of a neutral game as his, being dependent on getting his kills via edgeguarding with his heavily-nerfed, highly limited aerial game is pretty ludicrous. If there's any character in the game who should have amazing kill options, it's Bowser - but what we observe instead is that he has among the worst, and to add insult to injury, the best kill options belong to characters who are far more mobile and better than Bowser in every other way. Bolded for emphasis, not because I'm yelling at you.

one of the reasons I like playing Bowser is because it's so damn easy to kill people in any vulnerable position

This may have been true in 3.5, and is still true to some extent, in some situations. Nair is still a solid juggling tool, and fair still has good range and some meatiness. The edgeguards are still strong. The problem is that it's far too difficult to put opponents in vulnerable positions to begin with; and Bowser's options to keep them in those bad positions or secure kills are pretty limited. The lack of meaningful on-stage kill threats means that opponents don't have to account for very many options when trying to figure out what Bowser's going to do. This makes it much easier for them to escape bad situations against Bowser than, for example, against Ganon.

Moves that reward so insanely well on one read can't really be that bad. (In 3.5)

Uh, it didn't reward at all for merely one read. There are very few moves in the game laggy enough to get hit by fsmash even if the Bowser player hard-reads it ahead of time. Instead, the Bowser player needed to make a multi-part read (ex. "the other guy will jump at me and then charge an upsmash") which is exponentially more difficult and unreliable. I really shouldn't need to explain that this is not even remotely reasonable.

 

[Sardonyx]

Zelda was terrible in 3.02 along with her playstyle. I don't get why Zelda players jerk to her in 3.02. She was objectively bad. She became a far better designed character and gained a Din's fire with some actual mild use.

You realize she could control the stage better with 3.02 dins right? These dins are okay, but they didn't help change any of her complaints before. She was campy? Well now she can't camp at all (even though she couldn't very well in 3.02 either). By "far better designed" do you mean a less defensive character with her offensive options not compensated in the process? The physics on her nayru's (love jump, diamond dive, etc.) being taken away? The SDI multipliers on her everything being increased? I've had fox fall out of her up smash after hitting him while he standed right next to me, and wolf literally just slide out of nayru's. Not to mention people fall out of nair all the time if Zelda moves like an inch while the move is happening.

Is it because she's less annoying to fight? Yes she's less annoying to fight, but that's because she has less options than she did before.

 

[Chevy]

I've been guilty of this in the past, but many of my 'extreme' opinions have since been validated as correct. See: my complaints about 2.6 Ivysaur, 3.02 Mewtwo, 3.5 ROB long before any of those characters were considered strong or even relevant by most of the playerbase. As for the current issue, as I said, I felt exactly the same way about everyone who was saying that Bowser was overly nerfed - check the Bowser boards; you won't have difficulty finding my posts praising the changes, and telling the complainers to man up and adapt and give it some time. It's plausible that I'm being too hasty, but not terribly likely.

Honestly I was more referring to some silly matchup opinions that you have hastily concocted without much experience.

Uh, it didn't reward at all for merely one read. There are very few moves in the game laggy enough to get hit by fsmash even if the Bowser player hard-reads it ahead of time. Instead, the Bowser player needed to make a multi-part read (ex. "the other guy will jump at me and then charge an upsmash") which is exponentially more difficult and unreliable. I really shouldn't need to explain that this is not even remotely reasonable.

One read doesn't necessarily mean one read while in a neutral situation. Obviously you should almost never use a move that slow in neutral. It's good when you have already cut some of their options off(the aforementioned recovery situations), it's still fast enough to hit a read roll or spotdodge(character/timing dependant) when that's relevant, just general slight stagger situations. Everyone gets obvious openings sometimes too(egregious recovery lag, shield breaks/rest, tether grab whiffs) even laggy specials like Wizard's foot or Falcon kick. You simply cannot discount the ability to kill someone as early as you could in 3.5 in any situation where it came up. It's pretty much just better Melee f-smash at this point and it was useable in that game(admittedly mostly against Falcon/Ganon because laughably bad up-b recovery.

 

[Soft Serve]

I think the biggest problems with links grab isn't that it hits frame 11-17, but is endlag is atrocious and all of the setups into grab are so telegraphed. Ivy does fine with frame 11 grab because its max range is active faster and doesn't have a dumb af endlag on it (and ivy gets more off throws now overall), and ivy has better setups for it with actually good air/ground control and a lock down projectile. Link is slow af still, jab jab grab setups and run past pivot grab setups are so telegraphed and you can just buffer a roll put of those setups and punish the grab anyway. Link's grab is reactable at most character's optimal spacing in the MU (as are his other options at the just outside of zair range) and he doesn't have a good, fast safe ground move that would even threaten someone into shielding if they know the MU. His best move of that kind is fair which is actually really good tbh, but fair and bombs can't carry that character. He can't space at ranges where grab is unreactable because hes slow and doesn't have any good fast moves to take that space without prior setup (bombs, boomerang all have big frame comittments and require giving up space in most situations to even use without getting opened up).

Link feels way more fun to play this patch, with better movement/nair and first hit bair wdsk combos, but he's still atrociously bad if other character/player realizes link has nearly no good mix ups and his game plan has huge holes that are easily exploited.

If you get grabbed by link you ****ed up big time, and deserve to get hit by that dthrow upsmash> return to neutral combo (hyperbole unless you're a floaty)

Like ffs, Kirby can down taunt and still grab link on his whiffed grab. I tried to be optimistic about the character this patch but he's ass rofl. Bottom 10 definetly

 

[Life]

pmdt (and fighting game dev teams across the world) need to realize that the archetype of "slow and makes you do dumb stuff" without having any presence other than being sp00ky doesnt work because they all suck. armor means you have to press a button in the first place, big hitboxes means you have to let them in first and burst movement is only burst movement if you cant move in the first place. give them gimmick projectiles or something that makes them scary in a full screen situation, or at least half screen. flame breath is a good start but the move is still ***

The character that comes to mind for me is Skullgirls' Big Band. Because of his huge size and slow movement he's more vulnerable to enemy pressure than a typical character. The stuff he has to make up for it include the only parry in the game, a move that causes an unblockable earthquake at fullscreen, a move where he lunges forward like half the screen with armor, a similarly-large lunging anti-air command grab, an aerial dropkick that knocks himself down so he can techroll through projectiles if he wants to (more useful than it sounds since AFAIK there isn't any vulnerability on techrolls in that game), big honkin' hitboxes, and a ZSS-like stun mechanic. And maybe I forgot some things? (Not to mention he's just oozing with style.) I'm still pretty new at that game, but as far as I know he's not considered close to overpowered. (I know, I'm usually the first to complain about how any given list of a characters' tools make them look overpowered, and this stuff only makes sense in the context of its own game. The point is to show how heavy fatties need good tools to succeed.)

Bowser, by way of comparison, has... uh... someone help me out here. Klaw, a decent oos option, a really good getup attack, some armor... does being really heavy even count in a game like Smash?

Character strength is determined by how good a character's toolset is.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Honestly I was more referring to some silly matchup opinions that you have hastily concocted without much experience.

Eh. That's fair.

One read doesn't necessarily mean one read while in a neutral situation. Obviously you should almost never use a move that slow in neutral. It's good when you have already cut some of their options off(the aforementioned recovery situations), it's still fast enough to hit a read roll or spotdodge(character/timing dependant) when that's relevant, just general slight stagger situations. Everyone gets obvious openings sometimes too(egregious recovery lag, shield breaks/rest, tether grab whiffs) even laggy specials like Wizard's foot or Falcon kick. You simply cannot discount the ability to kill someone as early as you could in 3.5 in any situation where it came up. It's pretty much just better Melee f-smash at this point and it was useable in that game(admittedly mostly against Falcon/Ganon because laughably bad up-b recovery.

None of the mentioned situations (other than Ganon/Falcon upB landing lag, which should never happen because he'll just grab ledge if you're onstage throwing an fsmash) have anywhere near enough endlag for Bowser to punish with an fsmash- and if a tether grab whiffs Bowser, it will be precisely because he's too far away from his opponent to hit with an fsmash.

You have a point regarding rolls, I guess - and slight stagger situations are important to consider. Even so, the difficulty of hitting the move is nowhere near commensurate with the reward for doing so; and situations where it's possible to hit (and a reasonable option selection) are so rare in tournament as to effectively not exist. In many situations where Fox could easily net a kill by reacting to a roll with a grab -> uthrow -> uair, Bowser couldn't even get one by reading the roll and hitting with an fsmash because its KB is so mediocre. I'm all for the fsmash not having ridiculous knockback if it's going to be an actually useful move for other reasons, but the current situation of being both unusably slow and completely unrewarding is beyond absurd.

@ Life nailed it. Again, Bowser's moves could all be amazing tools, and he still wouldn't be a top tier character, simply because of his basic properties of being big, slow, having an awful recovery, having lots of endlag behind his moves, no real access to disjoint, and so forth. He's a crappy platform, so why does he also have crappy moves? I admit defeat re: my earlier claims that Ganon was top tier, for the same reason: he's kind of a crappy platform (though nowhere near as bad in terms of movement, recovery, size, etc as Bowser is) - so even though his kit is very strong, he winds up, at best, somewhere near the middle of the pack.

 

[Juushichi]

Hm, idk about that dthrow > usmash return to neutral thing

Because Link already did more than that in Melee.

Also grapplers are pretty good in most fighting games because not only is your screen space limited, but also once you get to a corner your options for side switching are generally risky and grapplers are more than willing to bet a bit of HP to keep you there.

 

[GP&B]

Can we make Bowser's Fsmash the punch from BiS

It'd be actually useful, referential, and wouldn't be stealing from Smash 4.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Yea, you really don't have much to fear from the heavy characters the same way you would be afraid of being too close to or getting hit by grapplers in other games.
We kinda need something in the context of Smash where Bowser has elements that we should be highly weary about when fighting him.
Like in SF, you don't wanna be caught being close to Zangief too long or you get SPD'ed.

 

[AceGamer]

The character that comes to mind for me is Skullgirls' Big Band. Because of his huge size and slow movement he's more vulnerable to enemy pressure than a typical character. The stuff he has to make up for it include the only parry in the game, a move that causes an unblockable earthquake at fullscreen, a move where he lunges forward like half the screen with armor, a similarly-large lunging anti-air command grab, an aerial dropkick that knocks himself down so he can techroll through projectiles if he wants to (more useful than it sounds since AFAIK there isn't any vulnerability on techrolls in that game), big honkin' hitboxes, and a ZSS-like stun mechanic. And maybe I forgot some things? (Not to mention he's just oozing with style.) I'm still pretty new at that game, but as far as I know he's not considered close to overpowered. (I know, I'm usually the first to complain about how any given list of a characters' tools make them look overpowered, and this stuff only makes sense in the context of its own game. The point is to show how heavy fatties need good tools to succeed.)

Bowser, by way of comparison, has... uh... someone help me out here. Klaw, a decent oos option, a really good getup attack, some armor... does being really heavy even count in a game like Smash?

Character strength is determined by how good a character's toolset is.

Most of the moves you mentioned for Big Band are from Potempkin from Guilty Gear btw. Anyways another thing about grapplers in traditional fighters is that their command grabs are really quick and beat out any attack you could do. Zangief in SF4 for example, when he gets close to you while you're knocked down he either grabs you and the only way to avoid that is jumping, the opposite of that is he could Siberian blizzard you if you jump so it was really a mind game to make sure you're not losing 30% or more of your health

 

[CORY]

make light, fast characters kill much later (as in, outright, not knock offstage then gimp on a double jump type of kill), then suddenly the slow fat characters are much more powerful by default (this also entails making the kill options quicker for the slow fats, or else they still don't matter to them). alternately, let them kill early as well, but make them have the bowser fsmash. they're fast and able to combo easily, those are traits that lend themselves to hard and educated reads much more readily.

give slow fat characters a much better suite of defensive options (tech rolls, rolls, spot dodges, maybe air dodges?), make the faster characters have generally worse such traits. if you have better active mobility, you shouldn't need to use defensive options as well.

then, as others have stated, give the slow fats more stage control options, either in the form of larger hitboxes, safer pokes, or big area coverage. ganon's f/dtilt are good examples of starts for this, from my experience, as well as his uair and pre-3.6 nair.
-ftilt could maybe be slightly safer on shield, but it has solid enough range, especially with the slight disjoint, to be a good poking tool in neutral, especially with the angling.
-dtilt leads into combos (whereas ftilt basically just knocks you back and resets neutral, but with hopefully more stage control for ganon), so its range/safety are fine, overall.
-uair starts fast, has the commitment of needing to jump, so it's not totally obscene, and covers a huge arc around (from slightly below in front to almost 45 degrees below him), along with having decent kb angles for setting up followups and positioning.
-pre-3.6 nair was a huge wall on a slow character that could be made safe in neutral. it was also a big threat, due to damage, but it's coverage was much more limited that uair's.

so, tools like that, on a character that's now been built (because of killing power nerfs on the fast lights) to be a scary powerhouse, that can control space directly around him, but will still lose neutral more because he lacks speed and still has to commit to the more mobile and varied options. if he wins neutral, which shouldn't be as often, he gets a big reward in some combination of big damage, positioning, an edgeguarding situation, or a straight kill.

then you give characters some utility. more utility to faster characters that need to win neutral more often in order to get their combos and kills, so the shines and cancellable projectiles and multioption specials, ambiguous cross up aerials and dash attacks, raptor boost style auto dodging attacks. weird mobility options. things like that.

slow fats still need some utility, otherwise they're entirely 1 dimensional and still should never win neutral, but they still don't get as many options for neutral, more for when they gain momentum and space. ganon's float is a good utility. 14 frames of commitment out of your jump (still wish it was closer to 10 /whine) that can also reflect projectiles, or on the ground, allow for jab resets or silly followups when people don't expect it and don't react to goofy stuff like dthrow-slap-grab. gives a recovery mixup and recovery boost. doesn't make aerials directly better, just by proxy of being able to delay timings. if you get the opponent on the backfoot, then you can use it to mess up their predictions with quick aerials, delayed aerials, and floated aerials.

i consider the side and down b's to be more offensive tools once he's established control, so they're part of the tool kit for punishes and combos, to keep him scary so you don't want to just shield and/or dodge/roll everything all the time. their startups are almost reactable, so anything outside of close range makes them easily reactable, meaning they're not good neutral tools, just mixups, which is just part of an archetype.

i didn't mention recoveries, because i don't think any class, slow fat to light fast, should really be constricted by a set recovery archetype. that's more of a character balance and even archetypal (rather than weight/speed class) trait. maybe some lightfasts need really good recoveries and there's some slow fat that should have just two recovery options that are distinct but linear. it gets into flavor and archetype builds a lot more at that point.

for reference, i consider wolf to be a good base for the fast lights, especially the aggro archetype. he can make you shield (or commit to something to try and stop it) with the projectile, he has a really good ground speed with good options out of it (aerials that are/can be made safe, projectile, and is his dash attack solid or is it more of a punish tool? can't remember, tbh...). his projectile has utility in its wl-ing tricks, his shine (which makes things safe, as well) is a good combo tool that can combo into side b on a di read (iirc it's not reactable against most of the cast, right?), and he has a good kit for general combos to gain stage control at the very least, and good damage along with it. his smashes aren't super powerful for their speed (or at least don't feel like it), his aerial kill options aren't super powerful for their speed, either, afaik. he would probably still need killing potential tweaks under my prior statements, but he has a really solid base in terms of speed/weight traits and archetype traits.

this is also basically concerning the extremes of both ends, since they're typically the most polarized.

 

[ELI-mination]

In what universe was Bowser bottom 5

Oh I forgot
Everyone thinks the character that they main is bottom 5

 

[Frost | Odds]

In what universe was Bowser bottom 5

Oh I forgot
Everyone thinks the character that they main is bottom 5

Thanks for contributing.

@ AceGamer what's the frame data on Gief's command grab, and other relevant moves for Potemkin/whoever?

 

[ELI-mination]

Thanks for contributing.

You're welcome

 

[NW_Gump]

not AceGamer but @ Frost | Odds Gief and T. Hawk both have 2 frame SPD's, Hakan's is 3 frames. All three of them have super moves that are 1 frame though. Also something to keep in mind with Gief is that lp SPD has obscene range, and that's part of what makes him so scary. When he's in range to hit you with almost any normals, the SPD will usually reach.

 

[Soft Serve]

In what universe was Bowser bottom 5

Oh I forgot
Everyone thinks the character that they main is bottom 5

At least 5 of them have to be right though

 

[didds]

wait Eli, you commenting on past tense 3.5 bowser or current bowser?

 

[mimgrim]

In what universe was Bowser bottom 5

Oh I forgot
Everyone thinks the character that they main is bottom 5

I thought Toon Link was high tier when I had him as a main, and still do tbh. (recently moved him to secondary status due to realization that he is better as a secondary).

And I think Meta Knight is probably top 10.

So yea.

 

[didds]

Give bowser a shell shift like that other dumb bottom five turtle dude

 

[AceGamer]

Thanks for contributing.

@ AceGamer what's the frame data on Gief's command grab, and other relevant moves for Potemkin/whoever?

All 3 versions of Giefs SPD(spinning pile driver) come out frame 2 lead and Potempkin had 2 command grabs, one to catch jump ins and anyone near him on the ground. His anti air grab had 2 parts to it too so it was really punishing, taking around 40% of health for each character (when you get both parts)

 

[Frost | Odds]

wait Eli, you commenting on past tense 3.5 bowser or current bowser?

He's just trolling, ignore him.

not AceGamer but @ Frost | Odds Gief and T. Hawk both have 2 frame SPD's, Hakan's is 3 frames. All three of them have super moves that are 1 frame though. Also something to keep in mind with Gief is that lp SPD has obscene range, and that's part of what makes him so scary. When he's in range to hit you with almost any normals, the SPD will usually reach.

What's an SPD? What exactly do you mean by them being 1/2/3 frames? That's how long it takes the grab box to come out? If so: Good God almighty

 

[ELI-mination]

I thought Toon Link was high tier when I had him as a main, and still do tbh. (recently moved him to secondary status due to realization that he is better as a secondary).

And I think Meta Knight is probably top 10.

So yea.

Consider yourself in the minority.

Talking about Bowser in both, @ didds

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

He's just trolling, ignore him.


What's an SPD? What exactly do you mean by them being 1/2/3 frames? That's how long it takes the grab box to come out? If so: Good God almighty

Spinning Pile Driver, with only 2f of startup and the grab box comes out on 3. So yea, don't stand next to him so long.

 

[didds]

He can't be bottom 5 in either






I don't main him

 

[Frost | Odds]

Spinning Pile Driver, with only 2f of startup and the grab box comes out on 3. So yea, don't stand next to him so long.

And yet he still manages to not be top tier?

Dear God, what's with the aversion to Bowser having useful moves, then? I'll never understand.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

And yet he still manages to not be top tier?

Dear God, what's with the aversion to Bowser having useful moves, then? I'll never understand.

There are ways to get around it, just play smart neutral and he shouldn't be a huge problem. He still reks newbies though.
If you want to see some cool Zangief play, look up Snake Eyez.

Edit: IMO I don't think this is a complete solution for Smash though. There's reasons why Zangief is designed this way and it wouldn't be healthy the way things are setup atm. Though, at the same time, we have Shine..zZzZz

 

[Shokio]

Bowser's broken.

 

[NW_Gump]

@ Frost | Odds So by 1/2/3 frames that is how long the startup is before the huge grab box comes out, yes. But due to the grapplers limited options in the neutral thanks to slow walkspeed and long startup on normals, they're designed to have these obscenely fast options because they're supposed to be punish heavy characters. Zangief can punish things most characters can't thanks to speed and range of his command grab (SPD).

 

[FreeGamer]

Kirby's design isn't in a very good place right now tbh. His jank is the only thing keeping him above bottom 10.

 

[Lens]

Can we make Bowser's Fsmash the punch from BiS


It'd be actually useful, referential, and wouldn't be stealing from Smash 4.

Or a loosely-inspired "chargeable" ftilt, like Wario's.

 

[CORY]

There are ways to get around it, just play smart neutral and he shouldn't be a huge problem. He still reks newbies though.
If you want to see some cool Zangief play, look up Snake Eyez.

Edit: IMO I don't think this is a complete solution for Smash though. There's reasons why Zangief is designed this way and it wouldn't be healthy the way things are setup atm. Though, at the same time, we have Shine..zZzZz

And yet he still manages to not be top tier?

Dear God, what's with the aversion to Bowser having useful moves, then? I'll never understand.

what aura said, but to expand on it: unless there was a large system change, you can't grab characters who are in hit or blockstun, and i believe there's a buffer on the blockstun that extends a few frames later, so you can't just tap them while blocking and start the spd. there are tick throw setups (basically attacks that are just +- enough to put them at that buffer range, forcing a hard read on whether you'll get grabbed). furthermore, you can't grab airborne opponents unless the grab is specialized to allow that, and in some games (don't know about sf series) the jump startup (typically a universal 3 frames) is also ungrabbable.

this lets what we would consider absurdly fast grab startups be sane (since in those games, throws are also typically frame 1 or even frame 0, activating the frame the command is input, making throw techs a hard read).

 

[Strong Badam]

Regular throws in USF4 are active frames 3 and 4. The main thing balancing regular throws in that game is crouch teching, an option select that will either tech a throw if a throw is done or do a crouching light kick if they are not thrown, which starts a block string for that character, although there's counterplay to crouch tech as well.