Tier List Speculation

[jtm94]

The most bother some GnW animations are dtilt, fair, and bair.

I too think it's weird that GnW's UpB becomes slightly disjointed because of the way he rotates during it. This lets me beat out needles, Sonic springs, fireballs during the later half of the move.

His grab game is worse than Melee, give me old dthrow that's how a lot of other Melee characters get nerfed. Then I can dthrow nair everyone at KO percents.

I've never heard any solid arguments against GnW other than saying DJ out of UpB is dumb. I don't mind facing GnW just because he's extremely easy to outright KO, but I also play Sheik so it's not like he's hard to edge guard with her either.

Sonic's UpB has other things going for it that GnW doesn't like a divekick. As a character he has moves that help him get out of juggles better than GnW UpB(spins) while also being able to UpB and drop a hitbox on you, just to divekick down. Characters with strong uair juggle options generally still juggle GnW particularly well. This makes the Tink MU frustrating, but fortunately GnW cannout airdodge after he uses UpB, that would give him far too many options and I'm glad he can't.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Flexible stuff is a good thing. Mewtwo TP > Hover > Aerial was REALLY COOL and MADE SENSE, but was essentially eliminated.
Toning it down a LOT (major lag after TP that it's almost unusable out of raw neutral) at least KEEPS THE OPTION even if it IS terrible. It would still have 'a' use, and that use would have to be worked with.

I don't think it'd take such a drastic change; 3.5 actually (ironically) laid the groundwork for a reasonable telehover implementation. Teleport consuming one jump means no more short hop telehovers, which removes the braindead head-on approach options. That alone renders it significantly less useful in neutral and shifts its use to extending combos, pressuring opponents on platforms, etc. I could maybe see an argument for extending teleport endlag by 2-3 frames if telehovers were re-implemented, but I see no reason why an updated telehover implementation would necessitate increased endlag to the extent that it would significantly impact Mewtwo's ability to extend combos with teleport->aerial.

 

[The_NZA]

Well, looks like the call outs have begun and the toxicity is Britney Spears levels again so i'm just going to dip...

You mentioned something about how it was generally agreed upon that G&W was broken due to his recovery and "combo escape fluidity". Do you think you could expand on this? I thought G&W's recovery was generally accepted due to how light he is; it's good, but broken? I don't know about that.

By "combo escape fluidity" I'm assuming you're talking about using upb to escape combos, right? I've definitely seen people complain about this, but what most people seem to ignore is that fact that using upb to escape combos still leaves you above your opponent, which is obviously one of the worst places you can be. G&W does have the luxury of being about to throw out aerials after using upb, but the best one you can use in that situation is dair which really isn't anything to write home about in terms of its range...

If you wanted to call anything G&W has "broken", you should've mentioned his throws.

I'm a little lazy to retype on a topic i've spend so much typing, so forgive me while I copy and paste some of what i've written about 3.5 GnW. Note that I realize the hitbox on up b now starts on frame 3 instead of frame 1-- I do not think this significantly changes the general impressions I have of the character (although the specifics might be different).

"My concerns about GnW are only partially about balance--its more a conversation about abhorrent design. Marth, Sheik, Fox, Falco all did just fine against Link in 3.02--but that didn't mean Link shouldn't have been nerfed. Some things are bad on a design level and they ought to be changed because they are bad design regardless of their balance.

I will now talk about the frame 1 argument comparing shine and GnW's upb. First off, few would argue that if Shine made its way into the game today as a new idea, that people would react well. Most will admit, shine is a pretty silly strong move. However, move utility shouldn't be compared against shine as the benchmark--otherwise you end up with a patch like 3.02 where Fox was actually pretty balanced against the top 10 characters of the game.

However, I will go ahead and say Shine is STILL significantly better designed than GnW's upb. Yes, both are frame 1. Fox as a character has pretty insane tools, and is capable of doing more than the entire cast in most situations.

However, players make mistakes--Mistakes are the cause of 99% of neutral game interactions resulting in one player getting the edge. The thing about Fox is, he can't afford to make mistakes unless he is willing to lose stocks for significantly less mistakes. That's true about every spacie--that should be evident from watching Winners Finals between Big D v. Chillindude last night.

You have to play near flawlessly to not be bodied as a spacie. Let's compare this to GnW. As GnW, you can go a full game being outplayed at every turn, and get kills off of unintentional conversions that lead to wins. accidentally winning neutral is a significant part of every set i've played against GnW players. Sometimes its your dair which has 3 hits, with the final hit happening far later than the animation with a low hitbox that can often shield poke. This hit is a weak meteor that combos into the strongest upsmash in the game. No GnW uses the dair aiming to get that final hit to work--but if it works, "hey, i'll charge that usmash and take that stock!"

Sometimes your upbing out of a combo or OOS and it leads into a 40-50% combo that you didn't intend to get. Sure, it takes wherewithal to do a combo, but seeing as you keep your second jump, these combos are often easier to do on the fly than the combos other characters plan entire strategies and positioning around. Regardless, your intention was to get out of the combo--not get the game winning kill as you used a retreating tool.

Sometimes its the late hit of dtilt that pops people up perfectly for a kill.

Sometimes its the pan that semi spikes people when you were just trying to throw out a bacon. Sometimes its a bacon which hits someone giving you time to charge one of the meatiest f/us smashes and get a kill (i'll admit, this one takes actual reacting).

This is already on a character, mind you, who has a move with the strength of rest that can be prepped to have a 1/3rd a chance of appearing and is significantly less punishable than Rest.

At a certain point, the sheer quantity of jank is purely staggering. GnW this patch is more frustrating than Zelda ever was in previous patches (and she was also changed for design rather than balance reasons). Personally, I think you guys are overstating how much positional advantage GnW loses when he upb's out of pressure. Between bucket braking, double jumping and air dodging, I don't think he's at that much of a disadvantage for many of the characters combatting him."

 

[D e l t a]

People complaining about GnW's UpB keeps telling me that people need to git gud. At the beginning of my smash career, I was a rookie and complained about a number of moves (disjointed smash attacks, random aerials, etc). That is until one day, when a top player gave me tips on how to work around those moves. He told me to find new ways to punish these moves and find their weaknesses in any way possible, rather than focus on the inherent strengths.

==

Let's break down his UpB into simple terms.

Strengths:

Fast OoS option.

Combo move (if spacing is correct & your DI is somewhat off).

Great vertical recovery.

Somewhat disjointed on the sides.

Weakness:

Puts GnW in the air which means they have to find a way back to the ground using one of these options to trick the opponent and land: Dair, Fair, Bair, platform, fast fall, bucket stall, air dodge.
His Dair is the "best" landing move. It gets beat by baiting then punishing, hitting from the side / above & avoiding the downwards hitbox, or shielding the first aerial hit then punishing OoS before they can touch ground.
Fair / Bair are used when you try to combat GnW from the sides as a mixup. The Fair obviously can be punished due to massive end lag by either moving back or punishing OoS with almost any attack you want. As for Bair, it's punishable by a shield grab. The other choice would be to have a disjoint & run over & hit GnW underneath him or cross him up then punish the whiff.
Fast falling isn't that fast with GnW and doesn't usually lead to safety, even combined with an aerial. Fast fall waveland on platform however is about the only safe option I see as GnW retreating. Landing platform will only lead being pressured or juggled. Same thing for bucket stall.

The recovery is terrible horizontally. Hard to sweetspot every single time and on certain stages can't sweetspot due to blast zones. Hit him once or twice and he's donezo.

Slight disjoint on sides means that spacing has to be precise. It should be toned down a bit IMO, but since it's currently part of the game, learn to work around it.

If you know UpB is coming (as you should go into matches having MU knowledge and awareness of the other player's moves), just be aware when your combos won't continue or the shield pressure gets messed up. Be ready to DI at all given times. Nobody excessively complains about Luigi's Nair because it breaks combos. They bait it out and punish.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Game and Watch isn't overpowered or anything, but that doesn't mean I have to stop thinking he is a degenerate, janky, piece of **** that I hate playing lol

 

[The_NZA]

Puts GnW in the air which means they have to find a way back to the ground using one of these options to trick the opponent and land: Dair, Fair, Bair, platform, fast fall, bucket stall, air dodge.

My response to your entire post is, you forgot about double jumping. That's an option he has which he will only burn if he's going to use it to combo you (in which case you are also in the air).

Some characters don't have great tools to chase him down and punish him on his way down because of low range uairs or poor sharking mobility and it makes the matchup pretty intolerable. I'mg thinking Kirby, Ness, Zelda as some examples, but regardless. His double jump doesn't making him as much of a sitting duck at all considering the alternative--he would have actually been ****ing comboed like every other character in this game post 3.5

 

[4tlas]

Some characters don't have great tools to chase him down and punish him on his way down because of low range uairs or poor sharking mobility and it makes the matchup pretty intolerable. I'mg thinking Kirby, Ness, Zelda as some examples, but regardless.

Don't forget Ness and Zelda have to contend with the bucket! THAT DAMN BUCKET ABSORBS DINS FIRE TWICE AND PK FIRE THREE TIMES WHYYYYY

 

[Rᴏb]

However, I will go ahead and say Shine is STILL significantly better designed than GnW's upb. Yes, both are frame 1. Fox as a character has pretty insane tools, and is capable of doing more than the entire cast in most situations.

Analyzing both moves in a vacuum without observing the characters they are attached to is pointless. Fox's tools working in tandem with his shine is what makes him such a badly designed character, not shine alone. I can't say the same about G&W and his upb- it is no where near comparable.

You have to play near flawlessly to not be bodied as a spacie. Let's compare this to GnW. As GnW, you can go a full game being outplayed at every turn, and get kills off of unintentional conversions that lead to wins. accidentally winning neutral is a significant part of every set i've played against GnW players.

The majority of your post seems to be based on the premise that when G&W players punish you with certain tools, they couldn't have meant to. This is somewhat reasonable because I'm sure we've all experienced times where we did something that we didn't intend to, but this really isn't exclusive to G&W at all; you can easily assert this about any character. It isn't as absolute as you make it out to be, so that's my first problem with your post.

Sometimes its your dair which has 3 hits, with the final hit happening far later than the animation with a low hitbox that can often shield poke. This hit is a weak meteor that combos into the strongest upsmash in the game. No GnW uses the dair aiming to get that final hit to work--but if it works, "hey, i'll charge that usmash and take that stock!"

Sometimes your upbing out of a combo or OOS and it leads into a 40-50% combo that you didn't intend to get. Sure, it takes wherewithal to do a combo, but seeing as you keep your second jump, these combos are often easier to do on the fly than the combos other characters plan entire strategies and positioning around. Regardless, your intention was to get out of the combo--not get the game winning kill as you used a retreating tool.

Sometimes its the pan that semi spikes people when you were just trying to throw out a bacon. Sometimes its a bacon which hits someone giving you time to charge one of the meatiest f/us smashes and get a kill (i'll admit, this one takes actual reacting).

My second problem with your post is that you seem to imply that if you get punished by something you don't expect, the issue is G&W as a character and not yourself as a player. The way I see it, if you choose an unsafe option where G&W can easily stuff you, that is your fault entirely and not indicative of how janky a character is. In the situations I just posted, did you not have better options you could've chosen?

Sometimes its the late hit of dtilt that pops people up perfectly for a kill.

Dtilt is a move that lasts for 8 frames and has 13 frames of endlag. It's a great move, but by no means does it not have counterplay. If you don't put in the effort the learn how to time your punishes so that you're attacking G&W during those 13 frames of endlag, I don't know what to tell you.

Personally, I think you guys are overstating how much positional advantage GnW loses when he upb's out of pressure. Between bucket braking, double jumping and air dodging, I don't think he's at that much of a disadvantage for many of the characters combatting him."

You list those things as if he can do all of them after using upb. He literally can't airdodge or bucket brake out of upb; the most he gets is a DJ and the slight stall from bucket. In the Ness MU I can see why this would be frustrating considering Ness doesn't really have an answer for G&W's dair, but I feel like that is such a rare case for a character to not be able to out range this:

Spoiler: dair

His double jump doesn't making him as much of a sitting duck at all considering the alternative--he would hrave actually been ****ing comboed like every other character in this game post 3.5

Luigi, Samus, Mewtwo, Peach, Zelda, ROB and Jigglypuff all say hello.

 

[Sardonyx]

At a certain point, the sheer quantity of jank is purely staggering. GnW this patch is more frustrating than Zelda ever was in previous patches (and she was also changed for design rather than balance reasons). Personally, I think you guys are overstating how much positional advantage GnW loses when he upb's out of pressure. Between bucket braking, double jumping and air dodging, I don't think he's at that much of a disadvantage for many of the characters combatting him."

It makes me sad that in changing Zelda for design reasons, the DT nerfed her toolkit drastically in the process.

 

[The_NZA]

Luigi, Samus, Mewtwo, Peach, Zelda, ROB and Jigglypuff all say hello.

I'm not going to refute the individual points in your post becaus I don't actually think they are objective points. Yes, there is always counterplay. Hell, there was tons of counterplay and ways to play against Zelda in 3.02 that were viable. It doesn't mean that I don't think the character rewards your own mistakes with vast opportunity.

As for the comboing thing, I can combo Samus, Mewtwo, Peach, Zelda, Rob and Jigglypuff just fine. GnW can upb escape out of the first hit of pkfire almost instantly. Its not really a fair comparison. He definitely is the only charater to retain combo escapes since 3.02.

 

[HarmakPaul]

For GnW, the big thing, IMO, isn't the up-B escaping the combo itself, but the fact that:
1) He's fairly safe against a variety of characters while coming down
G&W will be able to use key while he's in the air, which covers a good deal of punishes from characters without upward disjoints like swordies or flexible projectiles like Tink. It's actually better than it's being made out to be. Once he approaches the ground, the key would likely have ended, giving him very little endlag to punish.
2) He can Sakurai combo more easily than Fox ever could
He is given more opportunities since his up-B is fast and can be done if the opponent isn't 3 frames tight. He can convert into a parachute if the opponent doesn't expect it and SDI. While I rarely get hit with it anymore, I still don't like it as a design choice.

My suggestion would be to nerf key by making the hitbox last for a shorter time while keeping the length of the move about the same. Giving it less of a disjoint would be good too. For the Sakurai combo, the easy solution is to make the move either do virtually no knockback or change the knockback to be a lot more horizontal.

My $0.02, I think he's mostly fine since his neutral is really easy to abuse and he dies somewhere around 90-100%. There are some design kinks to work out though, like making his hitboxes match the animation of the move, like dtilt, making the hitbox size on dtilt more reasonable than one giant circle in front of him. Would be better if it was 3 smaller circles along the pothole, IMO.

Source: Practice partner is a G&W who tends to do well in region

 

[Hylian]

I beat most GW players with IC's, I feel like he can't be THAT good lol. I went pretty even with strong bads even when I had the turn around glitch. Maybe IC's just do well against him because they kill him so easily (seriously upsmash at like 50% from a grab kills GW).

 

[D e l t a]

G&W vs ICs

G&W: Bair, fully spaced out Dtilt, UpBs out of bad situation. Potentially spaced out Nairs.

ICs: Grab, smash, ice block.

Basically if G&W mis-spaces anything, he gets grabbed and dies. If you space out perfectly then ICs can get separated and G&W can kill nana with upsmash/hammer or tack on easy combos.

 

[Hylian]

Bair I just WD OoS jab -> grab or smash. Dtilt is super easy to deal with by just pivot desynching into blizzard. Nair like always kills nana but GW has to launch IC's first. Hardest thing for IC's to deal with in that match-up is GW dair which is surprisingly hard to punish.

 

[Boiko]

He's not broken good or anything. He loses pretty solidly to any character with a good dash dance, or good disjoint. Upb is just really dumb.

 

[Strong Badam]

He's not broken good or anything. He loses pretty solidly to any character with a good dash dance, or good disjoint.

AKA 80+% of the metagame right now.

 

[Nausicaa]

This, in other words.

 

[Shokio]

Is Mario's d-throw supposed to be as good as it is? Like, was it intentional to keep it very, very good? Honest question. I'm watching a lot of Nashun vids so they made me wonder.

 

[The_NZA]

He's not broken good or anything. He loses pretty solidly to any character with a good dash dance, or good disjoint. Upb is just really dumb.

I think he has a ton more potential then you are giving him credit for. He has a pretty good wavedash and nice range on his aerials and I think his punish game in the hands of a very read oriented player would be outrageous. Someone like Ally, for example, could make that character look ridiculous off of 4-5 good reads a game. That's the sense I get, anyhow.

 

[Warzenschwein]

I played against a Mario yesterday. It was very, very dumb. CC->low commitment killmove all day brothazzzz.
It was exhausting.

Then I went Mario dittos, abused the same stuff and won more convincingly. LOL. He's weird.

 

[Boiko]

AKA 80+% of the metagame right now.

LOL, yeah, that's a good point.

 

[Frost | Odds]

It's okay for characters to have good things

Tell that to whoever vetoed Bowser ever having a useful fsmash. Or good kill moves in general

 

[Nausicaa]

Maybe it's okay for characters to have bad things too?

 

[Frost | Odds]

It doesn't bother you that the biggest, visually strongest and most nasty character in the game, has probably the worst kill moves and setups in the game - on top of being worse than pretty much every other character in every other way, having terrible defensive options, being super easy to combo and edgeguard, and having no neutral game?

I've actually quit bowser until he's fixed -- right now he's completely unplayable. I'm getting better results with my brand new, totally unpracticed ganon, than with the best Bowser in the world into whom i've dumped hundreds or thousands of hours. I was really thrilled at first that so many of my suggestions for Bowser were used. Then I realized that the suggestions used were pretty much exclusively nerfs - and to all of Bowser's most important tools. He was given absolutely nothing meaningful in return, and is now by far the worst character in the game.

I'm a bit upset about it. :/

 

[Nausicaa]

I find him a lot funner than before, so at least there's some solid ground-work to go from.
I still want a bigger Jab and faster D-Tilt, but that's just 2.1 wishes lingering.

ICs are freaking fun.

 

[Life]

It doesn't bother you that the biggest, visually strongest and most nasty character in the game, has probably the worst kill moves and setups in the game - on top of being worse than pretty much every other character in every other way, having terrible defensive options, being super easy to combo and edgeguard, and having no neutral game?

I've actually quit bowser until he's fixed -- right now he's completely unplayable. I'm getting better results with my brand new, totally unpracticed ganon, than with the best Bowser in the world into whom i've dumped hundreds or thousands of hours. I was really thrilled at first that so many of my suggestions for Bowser were used. Then I realized that the suggestions used were pretty much exclusively nerfs - and to all of Bowser's most important tools. He was given absolutely nothing meaningful in return, and is now by far the worst character in the game.

I'm a bit upset about it. :/

This has happened to Squirtle every patch since his release.

PMDT generally seems to have a nerf-oriented balance philosophy since at least 3.02, possibly earlier (I don't remember much about the balances of previous versions other than like Sonic and Ike and 2.6 Ivy being thought to be super good). This is fine, except that often the reasons for specific changes are COMPLETELY opaque. Sometimes it's obvious why a given change was made (Marth/Roy/Fox recovery nerfs come to mind) but not always (DK's design has been criticized as two-dimensional for a long time and we didn't even get a "we're looking into it" line AFAIK).

I know you guys think that doing patch notes is hard enough already, but couldn't it possibly hurt to include a bit of context when you make a change?

 

[Nausicaa]

Bowser
All Smashes
- Armor now scales (light to heavy)

Forward Smash
^- Reduced start-up
^- Body hitbox enlarged
v- Active frames trimmed
v- Trimmed 1 frame armor
v- Tipper hitbox comes out later and reduced in size
v- Lunging movement reduced
v- Knockback reduced

???

Snake
Tranquilizer
- Bullet is now intangible

?????


Vacuums are funny.
But seriously...

 

[AceGamer]

It doesn't bother you that the biggest, visually strongest and most nasty character in the game, has probably the worst kill moves and setups in the game - on top of being worse than pretty much every other character in every other way, having terrible defensive options, being super easy to combo and edgeguard, and having no neutral game?

I've actually quit bowser until he's fixed -- right now he's completely unplayable. I'm getting better results with my brand new, totally unpracticed ganon, than with the best Bowser in the world into whom i've dumped hundreds or thousands of hours. I was really thrilled at first that so many of my suggestions for Bowser were used. Then I realized that the suggestions used were pretty much exclusively nerfs - and to all of Bowser's most important tools. He was given absolutely nothing meaningful in return, and is now by far the worst character in the game.

I'm a bit upset about it. :/

Damn, if Odds of all people quit Bowser the situation is way worse than people think

 

[The Baron]

It doesn't bother you that the biggest, visually strongest and most nasty character in the game, has probably the worst kill moves and setups in the game - on top of being worse than pretty much every other character in every other way, having terrible defensive options, being super easy to combo and edgeguard, and having no neutral game?

I've actually quit bowser until he's fixed -- right now he's completely unplayable. I'm getting better results with my brand new, totally unpracticed ganon, than with the best Bowser in the world into whom i've dumped hundreds or thousands of hours. I was really thrilled at first that so many of my suggestions for Bowser were used. Then I realized that the suggestions used were pretty much exclusively nerfs - and to all of Bowser's most important tools. He was given absolutely nothing meaningful in return, and is now by far the worst character in the game.

I'm a bit upset about it. :/

this is kind of funny in a twisted genies wish sort of way but I think I can understand where you're coming from. So does this mean you prefer old bowser or think he needs more tools to go with the changes he received without changing him back to old bowser.

 

[Nausicaa]

The current Bowser is in a better place than the last when it comes to going into further patches.
The things that DID help him will be solid for long-term development.
The things that went well for him this patch for IMMEDIATE results are a good sign of that too.
D-Smash/U-Smash and Firebreath and etc changes, are much more complimenting/complemented by things like size decreases and less focus on armor throughout, etc. This continuing will be a good thing.
Bringing quicker/more solid moves into his kit will flow better with 3.6 Bowser in all ways. When things 'do' get 'right' within his move-set, this current Bowser is more suited to accommodate them into being a functional and fluent character without degenerating the game or breaking something.
^ I would ASSUME @ Frost | Odds is likely on board with that too, though his insight would be about the specifics more than this simply broader picture I'm sure.

tl;dr PM done good with 3.6 Beta
With some minor adjustments to accommodate this new-boozer, maybe even in 3.6, he'll be a much better character than he ever could have been with the 3.5 base.

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ The Baron The nerfs he recieved were for the most part absolutely correct and warranted IMO - I stand by them. Dash attack and nair in particular were gross to play against and boring to use. The problem is that he didn't get any strengths to compensate for the ones he lost -- my hope was that he'd get very strong smash attacks, so that Bowser players would actually be rewarded for playstyles based around baiting opponents and making hard reads into vicious punishes -- and his fsmash got nerfed harder than basically anything else in 3.6, despite already being one of the worst moves in the game.

The current Bowser is in a better place than the last when it comes to going into further patches.
The things that DID help him will be solid for long-term development.
The things that went well for him this patch for IMMEDIATE results are a good sign of that too.
D-Smash/U-Smash and Firebreath and etc changes, are much more complimenting/complemented by things like size decreases and less focus on armor throughout, etc. This continuing will be a good thing.
Bringing quicker/more solid moves into his kit will flow better with 3.6 Bowser in all ways. When things 'do' get 'right' within his move-set, this current Bowser is more suited to accommodate them into being a functional and fluent character without degenerating the game or breaking something.
^ I would ASSUME @ Frost | Odds is likely on board with that too, though his insight would be about the specifics more than this simply broader picture I'm sure.

tl;dr PM done good with 3.6 Beta
With some minor adjustments to accommodate this new-boozer, maybe even in 3.6, he'll be a much better character than he ever could have been with the 3.5 base.

Agreed entirely with the first paragraph about Bowser's design being in a better place moving forward. He is, however, much, much weaker than you're currently giving him credit for at the moment. I'm thrilled about the design direction, just sad that I can't play him in this particular patch.

Anyway, here's screenshots of my rant on the subject, with the various bad words censored with respect to the forum's rules.

EDIT: Whoops, missed an f-bomb in the first image rofl

 

[The_NZA]

The current Bowser is in a better place than the last when it comes to going into further patches.
The things that DID help him will be solid for long-term development.
The things that went well for him this patch for IMMEDIATE results are a good sign of that too.
D-Smash/U-Smash and Firebreath and etc changes, are much more complimenting/complemented by things like size decreases and less focus on armor throughout, etc. This continuing will be a good thing.
Bringing quicker/more solid moves into his kit will flow better with 3.6 Bowser in all ways. When things 'do' get 'right' within his move-set, this current Bowser is more suited to accommodate them into being a functional and fluent character without degenerating the game or breaking something.
^ I would ASSUME @ Frost | Odds is likely on board with that too, though his insight would be about the specifics more than this simply broader picture I'm sure.

tl;dr PM done good with 3.6 Beta
With some minor adjustments to accommodate this new-boozer, maybe even in 3.6, he'll be a much better character than he ever could have been with the 3.5 base.

The problem that people perceive though is that the PMDT acts with a lot of care for the characters members of hte PMDT advocate for and play. Roy, Ike, Wario, Snake, GnW are all characters that were touched carefully or undertouched this patch.

Characters like Ness in 3.5 or DDD/Bowser/Ganon or even Lucario in 3.6 show that the PMDT likes to cut down stuff that people complain about but they don't really think about where the character ends up. I feel like if a prominent DDD/Bowser/Lucario were actually on the PMDT, their balance would have been handled differently.

This patch highlights these balance inconsistencies better than any other because unlike 3.5, it wasn't a case where the whole entire house was being cleaned out.

TLDR: They love trimming the fat (DDD dair disjoint, 3.02 Pk fire, Bowser Super armor, Ganon nair) but they don't really love the characters enough to give them further consideration of "how did this change this characters game, and do they need help now" unless a high level player of the PMDT actually voices those concerns. I doubt Odds or Ripple even got a chance to heavily voice concerns about teh character to the members of the PMDT in some official capacity to explain the thorough impact of the changes...

 

[Frost | Odds]

I doubt Odds or Ripple even got a chance to heavily voice concerns about teh character to the members of the PMDT in some official capacity to explain the thorough impact of the changes...

I did, actually. I was a bit blinded by my enthusiasm for the fact that my feedback was actually being taken into consideration, and didn't think totally clearly about how weak the patch would leave him. Even then, I'd still have done things very differently, but the Bowser changes did ship with my approval. I didn't get to test them - only a changelog - but I was pretty sure I'd more or less theorycrafted them out. I was wrong.

 

[The_NZA]

I did, actually. I was a bit blinded by my enthusiasm for the fact that my feedback was actually being taken into consideration, and didn't think totally clearly about how weak the patch would leave him. Even then, I'd still have done things very differently, but the Bowser changes did ship with my approval. I didn't get to test them - only a changelog - but I was pretty sure I'd more or less theorycrafted them out. I was wrong.

Got it. So the failing of Bowser was your failure to theorycraft him? My initial impression was that you were saying they had taken your advice on the nerfs but only gone half way on the buffs.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Got it. So the failing of Bowser was your failure to theorycraft him? My initial impression was that you were saying they had taken your advice on the nerfs but only gone half way on the buffs.

Step 1. I provide huge lists of nerfs and buffs.
Step 2. Pretty much only nerfs are used. Also, a bug ruins wavelanding.
Step 3. I can't test the build, but all the changes individually appear on paper to be good and appropriate ones. Some of them don't resemble the actual changes I'd suggested nearly as much as it seems (ie. the 3.6b koopa klaw is much harder to follow up than mine), but again, it looks on paper like it's a step in the right direction. I complain that ftilt and fsmash aren't nearly as good as they should be, but apparently there's some kind of law against those moves being usable.
Step 4. I figure fine, whatever, the new Klaw (which, again, I thought would have followups like my prototype) being 4 frames faster should make a big enough difference to compensate and give Bowser players an anchor for their punish game. Other buffs (like flame breath, initial dash speed, and improved rolls/tech rolls - which iirc didn't actually make it in) look much more significant on paper than they are in game.
Step 5. Patch ships. My friends/playing partners all love it. I'm performing vastly worse than in 3.5, but chalk it up to my own lack of experience with the patch. I'm still convinced that he's actually stronger than in 3.5, and make a lot of posts on here and reddit telling naysayers to calm down and adapt to the changes.
Step 6. After practicing constantly with 3.6 Bowser, I horribly lose 2 sets to a player that I'd consistently 2 stock in 3.5, and realize that, holy crap, Bowser actually completely sucks in this version. My b
Step 7. I switch to day 1 ganon, and make an almost completely clean sweep of a bracket the following day, against players of equal caliber to Alphicans, who'd crushed my Bowser the previous night.

I really can't overstate how much more experienced and proficient I am at playing Bowser than I am at any other character. When it's that much easier for me to win with Ganon (whom most regard as fairly weak!) than with the best Bowser in the world, there is a serious goddamn problem. I'm extremely frustrated that I wasn't allowed to test the build in order to provide better feedback, as well as that I was totally ignored re: buffs. If I'm not qualified, then who? That said, I still should have taken more care with the feedback I was able to provide, so yeah, I share the blame.

I'm still happy about the design direction and the nerfs which, again, were needed. I just don't understand why I have to fight so hard to get basic buffs for a character who everyone agrees is terrible, who exists in the same game as Melee Fox McCloud. It feels very much like some kind of extreme PMDT bias against heavy characters, though I don't want to believe that's the case. There has to be more going on.

EDIT: My Yoshi, Ivysaur, Charizard, Ness, and Pit were all also performing better in friendlies (and, in Yoshi/Zard's case, in bracket), than my Bowser. He is really, seriously awful right now.

 

[jtm94]

Have you considered that you were winning with Bowser's design because these people you faced never used counterplay? It's possible with the removal of armor that your previous gameplan goes entirely out of the window. Honestly I liked previous Bowser because you had to respect his moves, he was fun to play in a bad character type of way, and he wasn't over powered. I have yet to face my Bowser friend in 3.6, I'll think more about it when that happens.

As for GnW I don't know what anyone wants me to say. I can make tons of remarks about how other characters like Sonic can just spin around and get blind setups that weren't even intentional, but it will fall on deaf ears. Going for anything that is not safe or guaranteed in smash is incredibly risky, GnW is no different. Why are you letting your shield get so small that the landing hitbox pokes? Why are you not shield grabbing before he even hits the ground? Why do you not recognize he is above you and bait a move then hit it? The local scrubby Ness can dash away then DJ bair and hit me, SO CAN YOU! Why do you not ASDI the first hit of UpB down? You can do it during any move you use on his shield and it works for a very long time as far as I know. Even though it forces knockdown, he cannot punish that as long as you don't lay there and don't roll. Also as long as any character retains their jump they can jump out of combos. I don't think the interaction between GnW coming down while being able to DJ is that difficult or hard to punish.

The prospect of making GnW dair less disjointed is hilarious when it already loses to so much. The feel when slower characters like Bowser in 3.5 can move around it and hit me from the side. I really can't even imagine that you have even put an ounce of time trying to play against the character to say half of these things.

If GnW can't jump out of UpB he has far less conversions on anyone that isn't a semi or fastfaller. At later percents he can KO with UpB > jump > nair. The jump is often required to hit people at these %s and they won't be KOd unless they have terrible DI or are on a small stage. At these percents some characters can jump out of his UpB combo or airdodge. No jump limits his UpB conversions to mid % combo strings that are extremely delicate to the % of the other character. At this point I'd rather remove the hitbox on UpB entirely to retain the jump just so I can at least recover with it because I die at 90. He already is limited to getting late % KOs by using bacon which is ludicrously hard to control > nair/fair which is not even on reaction, but a read because of how slow his KO aerials are and because of how short of a time bacon stuns.

The character has a "jank" feel to him, but nothing is so crazy that he isn't playing smash. I will put any amount of time necessary to prove to anyone that this character can be played around entirely while still being within the realm of "playing normal smash." I assure you there is no smoke and mirrors, no whimsical tricks needed.

 

[The_NZA]

For GnW i consider a few things

1. if you just want to make his recovery more punishable, make it so after he does an aerial after upb, when he lands on the stage, he goes into a fixed amount of lag. Imagine DDD's animation when he cancels his upb and free falls to the stage. He kinda lands on his butt (nerf from 3.5). GnW should have something similar if possible after doing aerials after upb.

2. If you want to nerf the jump thing period, make it so he only can jump after upb when performed from the ground.

3. Give fair actual sourspots. Its absurd to me that it has sweetspots throughout, even when the hitbox is above him.

Honestly, I sometimes think the character should get some buffs and have a way less polarized game.

 

[Nausicaa]

The problem that people perceive though is that the PMDT acts with a lot of care for the characters members of hte PMDT advocate for and play. Roy, Ike, Wario, Snake, GnW are all characters that were touched carefully or undertouched this patch.

Characters like Ness in 3.5 or DDD/Bowser/Ganon or even Lucario in 3.6 show that the PMDT likes to cut down stuff that people complain about but they don't really think about where the character ends up. I feel like if a prominent DDD/Bowser/Lucario were actually on the PMDT, their balance would have been handled differently.

This patch highlights these balance inconsistencies better than any other because unlike 3.5, it wasn't a case where the whole entire house was being cleaned out.

TLDR: They love trimming the fat (DDD dair disjoint, 3.02 Pk fire, Bowser Super armor, Ganon nair) but they don't really love the characters enough to give them further consideration of "how did this change this characters game, and do they need help now" unless a high level player of the PMDT actually voices those concerns. I doubt Odds or Ripple even got a chance to heavily voice concerns about teh character to the members of the PMDT in some official capacity to explain the thorough impact of the changes...

Totally, and to add, you mentioned all that and didn't even mention Snake getting the most centralizing buffs you could possibly give him.
There's no wonder what some things are being catered to.
Less polarized game for G&W? Try that guy. haha ^

Lack of counter-play (the kind that's developed, not just under-developed stuff that seems degenerative) is what a lot of success people got with Squirtle and Diddy in PM history could give credit to, and it's what a lot of Luigi and Zelda success could be attributed to even still today. Zelda to a lesser extent because people had like... a good view of her in the public eye early on and she got death-kicked in the balance-tuning for it.
^this is related to @ jtm94 post and applies to Bowser substantially as well.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Yes, people were, and are still completely terrible at playing against Bowser. I've been shouting that from the rooftops for probably over a year now, heh.

 

[Nausicaa]

All of this talk is nice

BUT

Disclaimer (I think that's what this is)


The PMDT have done a GREAT job with each of these post-3.02 patches.
3.5 was EXCELLENTLY torn apart and put together.
Sending wide-spread worsening across an entire game is probably a BILLION times harder than buffing every to a happy level ever could be, yet it was absolutely essential, and essential AFTER everything was already at the point where it was over-tuned.
This initial over-tuning was ALSO a very essential part of the development of this game, as that had to be explored (and thoroughly) to understand the dynamics and effects that has in many many facets of a Smash game.

3.5 came through and made this new ground-work built on the old. On an already stabilizing game of 'strong' characters competing with unique tools and quirks that simply fleshed out to be jank is some key areas. Which was a given to have happen when you're trying to re-invent what could be the most diverse Smash game that may ever be made.

3.6 as an extension to this CANNOT be an entire remold and tuning toward the better, or it would end up going through the same cycle again.
I'm sure everyone from Odds to PMDT to random people understand the ramifications of this. It means that degenerate stuff that IS NOT INTENTIONALLY meant to be the quirks and tools that character carry over from 3.02, have to be demolished STILL. Bowser, fit that bill very much. Others did as well.

Naturally, given this game has A LOT OF FREAKING CONTENT, it would be REALLY REALLY REALLY smart, normal, expected, understandable, and make a LOT of sense, for characters and content MORE FREQUENTLY played at the level of play that 'counts' regarding balance, BY THE PEOPLE DEVELOPING THE GAME VERY INTIMATELY, to be finer-tuned characters a LOT sooner and a LOT more frequently so.
Especially RIGHT NOW, when the game is still being torn apart WHILE being put back together.
In other words...
Characters that people involved more heavily WITH the development of the game (PMDT and others), SHOULD be more finely touched and tuned than others.

The Melee-core made an amazing 'tipping point' and beacon for tuning the game. For whatever reasons from balance to styles of play to normalization to extremes.
The characters played by the PMDT-core will make an amazing 'tipping point' to further this deeper and developing strong-hold of characters that are very fitting to the end-game that the entire Smash community wants in the form of PM4.0

The other characters will come to this 'fine-tuning' swiftly, but following the batch that's being 'fine-tuned' by those who are intimate with both the characters AND the development of the game.
All of this following the juiciness of what Melee provided, and what was provided by the other currently very will-fitting characters that happen to WORK right now.

So, good **** 3.6 Beta DTeam, good ****