Tier List Speculation

[PlateProp]

lol Squirtle being worse only due to niche tweaks

your lack of knowledge is showing

I find it interesting that you really think he gets shut down in neutral with the best burst movement option in the game. I also find it interesting you say he loses to sword characters when he double eliminated sethlon the last time they played and that was in 3.5 (aka pre-nerf)...It seems like you are suuuper underestimating this character. Now I can see how he can get camped out by projectile based characters, he has the mobility potential to fight any spacing war.


Did you even watch the video? I didn't die at 42% lmao. But with proper DI, GnW will die at 43% on PS2. I was just saying it was possible

Also do you even hear yourself dude? essentially getting ike F-smashed?!?

Since when is it ok for a 4 frame move to be lag-cancelled, used in the air, comboed into (even out of d-throw), and the strength of an Ike F-smash?

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net...8d/Bruh.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140909194811

This character has amazing potential. He is at absolute minimum top 8. How could you not be amazing with that up B lmao

Why's it okay for GnW to have neglible endlag on his dair

Or not actually have animations

Or indications that any moves are over what so ever

 

[Dakpo]

Why's it okay for GnW to have neglible endlag on his dair

I can't tell if you're trolling me lol.
you know you can just shield grab dair? If thats still not enough lag...I heard smash 4 tournaments are getting big.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I have been unpleasantly annoyed when sleeping on Seagull before, but no way in hell is he beating Pro.

Why? It was relatively close last time. I had literally came back from a hiatus due to playing a ****load of 4 and somehow got 7th out of like 100 (Flex Zone in January). Also, Pro lost to Vanz at Flex Zone who I've beaten I think 5 or 6 times now. I've lost to him once in a GF set and once in a LF set. If that isn't indicative that I can beat him, I don't know what is. Sleeping on me is a poor decision. I won't sleep on Pro, but I think I can definitely beat him. I was really ****ing good vs in brawl too loooool.

lol I actually forgot I beat you tbh and was actually just replying to your tier list

(My subconscious mind taking shots?)

See you at Paragon though

Oh you Embarrass.

 

[Xykness]

Just to get information correct, misfire no longer has invincibility at all and Drephen has shown in the midwest that bair beats out missile snap. I agree that Luigi has good potential, but I cannot simply see him being top 8. Definitely not as low as Seagull put him though imo LOL. I just don't see the point of complaining.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Just to get information correct, misfire no longer has invincibility at all and Drephen has shown in the midwest that bair beats out missile snap. I agree that Luigi has good potential, but I cannot simply see him being top 8. Definitely not as low as Seagull put him though imo LOL. I just don't see the point of complaining.

Respect your sensei Kyler .

 

[dirtboy345]

Lol Seagull thinking he has a chance against Prof Pro

 

[Xykness]

Respect your sensei Kyler .

Yes, Senpai <3

 

[Seagull Joe]

Lol Seagull thinking he has a chance against Prof Pro

Laugh it up small fry. Peasant talk from the simpletons motivates me more-so then anything. I've beaten so many good players already. Beating another player who uses a character I simply love to fight will just be another trophy on my mantle.

 

[Ripple]

a move that has 10 frames of landing lag but has a landing hitbox that makes it -5, -6, or -7 (heard multiple things) on block, is actually super dumb considering that shield grab is essentially the only thing you can do to punish it with what dair gives you if it lands.

this is why you see ALL G&W players just throw this move out as soon as they up-b. its so safe and all people get is a shield grab if they can't outright beat it.

 

[dirtboy345]

Laugh it up small fry. Peasant talk from the simpletons motivates me more-so then anything. I've beaten so many good players already. Beating another player who uses a character I simply love to fight will just be another trophy on my mantle.

Money match me at LTC3

 

[DrinkingFood]

Laugh it up small fry. Peasant talk from the simpletons motivates me more-so then anything. I've beaten so many good players already. Beating another player who uses a character I simply love to fight will just be another trophy on my mantle.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Money match me at LTC3

I'm not going to that because I am in a panel at some con that weekend. It's also really expensive to go from MD to Texas for some odd reason.

 

[Ripple]

SSC is the week afterwords joe. try to john again later

 

[Seagull Joe]

SSC is the week afterwords joe. try to john again later

Not talking about SuperSmashCon. Talking about this one: http://www.vgu-con.com/#!blank/c1juy

Edit: I'm CO-TOing SuperSmashCon. I think I'd know when that is (August 6th-9th). My entire summer is pretty mapped out.

 

[Nausicaa]

your lack of knowledge is showing

Last time you said something like that to me, you got flamed by people other than me for it.

Though I'm open to hearing something on this one (try not to be so blunt and maybe it'll make sense and turn into a discussion), because I very well could be given it's about Squirtle this time, he's full of tech-stuff all the time, and you didn't get attacked for this one.

As far as I can tell, 3.6 got a bunch of armor adjustments and some small tweaks like a bigger N-Air and a smaller Up-B
What exactly in Squirtles Bread-and-Butter was nerfed in a way that he's worse?
I'm genuinely not seeing it. At all.

^ I think that may sound kind of harsh by the way I wrote that, but wasn't meant to be.
Just sayin, if you're gonna do that again, at least explain a bit or it'll be just a silly as last time. You can convo better than that, we've had good discussion before.


Luigi is bottom tier for life shut up everyone.
2.0 to 4.0, he's taking it to the grave baby.

 

[Exodo]

Heey, i hate your main...

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Why? It was relatively close last time.

There's a cutoff. Prof's on the other side with Sethlon, June and Lunch. Hey if you do beat him power to ya but I don't think it's likely at all. There's something about certain fighting styles that just have a signature of superiority and you don't have it. Still boggles my mind that anyone thought Rolex had a chance in hell v/s Prof way back when. People bet actual money on Rolex. What.

Yeah, I'm kind of a fanboy, but Pro has the movement and the punishment that deserves the praise. You don't.

Edit: If this ruffles your feathers too much, consider that I don't even think Ally is up there with the other players I mentioned.

 

[Ripple]

am I?


and to actually add to this thread but to divert it slightly, did you guys know that MK's dash attack still clashes with aerials? if you want to stay on the ground and punish a landing, just dash attack. you'll never take damage (unless the hitbox is transcendent?)

let's add that quirk to MK's already impressive punish game

 

[Seagull Joe]

There's a cutoff. Prof's on the other side with Sethlon, June and Lunch. Hey if you do beat him power to ya but I don't think it's likely at all. There's something about certain fighting styles that just have a signature of superiority and you don't have it. Still boggles my mind that anyone thought Rolex had a chance in hell v/s Prof way back when. People bet actual money on Rolex. What.

Yeah, I'm kind of a fanboy, but Pro has the movement and the punishment that deserves the praise. You don't.

Edit: If this ruffles your feathers too much, consider that I don't even think Ally is up there with the other players I mentioned.

Ally beat Pro and Junebug. Are you joking? You're insane LOL. I could even showcase the videos where Ally beat both of them.

Lunchables also by no means deserves a top seed. He has done nothing other then beat people in his own region.

Take your fanboying **** outta here.

 

[junebug]

Seagull 4 stocked my Diddy Kong with Bowser.

That is all.

 

[Lens]

@ Nausicaa Are you sure the Snake buffs were quite so targeted towards a specific playstyle?
C4 cooldown was lowered, but keep in mind sleep duration was also lowered, so this may have been introduced to avoid punished-on-hit situations at low percent or something. So is the main problem here the new tranq?
On the other hand, increased aerial mobility and the new nair, fair, and bair all seem pretty generically good for mid-range spacing (and non-C4 KOs). Probably still not a solid foundation by themselves, of course, which is my best guess at what your main point is. Also, doesn't crawl tilt help round out his ground game a bit?

 

[TheGravyTrain]

It was mentioned earlier about G&W and Dair. Dair is -5 on shield (@ Ripple ). I keep getting confused when I think I understand buffered spotdodges, so its either a frame perfect or not possible shield grab. While all they have to do is hold down on the c stick, you have to know the timing of a very ambiguous thing in shield stun. Also worth noting, while most characters actually have worse frame disadvantage then on paper due to landing later, G&W dair has a landing hitbox so it will always be at that frame advantage.

So @ Dakpo , no it isn't a ridiculously easy to shield grab. Go take a look over on the conveniently formatted thread on the character subforums to see, its all there.

 

[jtm94]

a move that has 10 frames of landing lag but has a landing hitbox that makes it -5, -6, or -7 (heard multiple things) on block, is actually super dumb considering that shield grab is essentially the only thing you can do to punish it with what dair gives you if it lands.

this is why you see ALL G&W players just throw this move out as soon as they up-b. its so safe and all people get is a shield grab if they can't outright beat it.

Why are you getting shield pressured by a frame 12 move that is -5 on shield? If you shield and GnW places dair high on shield you can grab well before he reaches the ground. You can do it with bair as well. When GnW had a frame 1 UpB that would cover grabs oos then we would have something to talk about, but an aerial that only allows him to escape via buffered spot dodge is pretty mediocre. A lot of characters have safe aerials, or even + aerials. I should play Zelda more because you can't shield grab kick, must be stupid I will just throw out moves willy nilly and jump around.

I think DDD is dumb because every time he's above me he throws out dair and none of my moves beat it, it's stupid.

See, this is why I also play Sheik, a real character. I get to ac my fair on your shield and grab you instead forcing you to spot dodge or roll. Heaven forbid an aerial be safe on shield. Where was all of this when Wolf's nair was even better and it has a landing hitbox as well on a better character in every way?

 

[MURP]

is free to . I can place a banana in front of me and peanut. If he picks up the banana then I get to go ham on him because he can no longer Nair LOL. with an item in hand is possible the worst character in the game. No issues here.

He can't neutral air until he drops the banana, but that only takes one frame (and puts out a pretty good frame 1 hitbox). All Luigi needs to do is press Z and then A and he can neutral air 2 frames after dropping the banana. He can also jab (if he isn't holding a banana) or crawl under the peanuts with relatively little commitment. Luigi is generally bad at dealing with projectiles, but Diddy is one of the characters Luigi does decently well against, in my opinion. Though I guess you've played Luigi players like Smash G0D, Vist (back when he played PM), Eli, etc. so perhaps I'm missing something. I also don't have that much experience against defensive Diddy players.

That definitely needs to get adjusted. He grabs the ledge from an insanely low height. There's definitely other problems though, like how easy it is to combo into such an insane kill move (Up-B) and his burst movement (Down-B)

I'd say:

1) Ledge grab box normalized.
2) Either jab KB adjusted, Up-B hitbox made smaller (nah), or Up-B KB REASONABLY reduced. It's way too free as-is.
3) Grounded Down-B made slightly slower and/or doesn't clank. Needs to get cleanly beat out by projectiles and disjoints. It's way too safe for such a quick burst movement option. It's punishable if they stop right on you or end up above you, but you can't even punish it with a projectile as it's coming and they can just zip away from you to prevent punishment if they see you shielding. It's low-risk-pretty-good reward burst movement. No. Go away.
4) Give Uair and maybe Up tilt higher KBG or send further horizontally. Luigi's combo game is pretty insane, even low-level Luigi's tack on 50-70% once they land an up-tilt and then go into 20 Uairs --> Shoryu or Fair/Dair. Floaties are not supposed to be combo fiends, Zelda, Samus, Peach, etc, typically aren't doing these 7-8 hit combos into finishers. But Luigi is. And for who is probably the hardest floaty to safely combo, he shouldn't combo so hard.
5) Give him slightly better air speed.

And this is just personal salt: Patch his Dair out of the game. It's an aerial Roy FSmash and hits like a bu, no, tank, for no reason. Jesus that move is godlike xD

Can you not advocate fundamentally altering the tools of a character because of your own personal salt? Luigi has design issues, but none of them relate to his combo game on people who don't know how to DI or that his down air hits hard, of all things. As a precursor, I'm well aware that you have a good amount of experience in the matchup and that you think that you have a good understanding of Luigi as a character.

1) The PMDT is definitely aware of this (I've brought it up with one member who said they're aware and I know a few others have done the same). I assume then, from the fact that they haven't changed it, that they either can't change it for some reason, just haven't gotten around to changing it yet, are waiting to see if it's still a needed change after all the recovery nerfs he's gotten in 3.6, there's some internal disagreement, or it's not an oversight, but a deliberate design choice so that you can't hit Luigi out of it while standing on the stage. Luigi's recovery is slow, reactable, linear, has a lot of ending lag both when landing on the stage and being used in the air, and doesn't have protective hitboxes. It's saving graces are the sheer distance it covers (more or less nerfed to Melee levels in 3.6), the possibility of getting a misfire (probability of that was nerfed in 3.6), his fireball's ability to deter the opponent from edgeguarding him (only matters when recovering high, if at all), and his missile's ability to sweetspot the ledge. Edgeguarding Luigi is already quite braindead. Moving his ledge grab box down significantly may negate the purpose of the sweetspotting entirely, by forcing Luigi to recover below the ledge, which is exactly what he had to do in Melee that they were attempting to change. It's slow and telegraphed enough that hitting him out of it is very straightforward. I'm not saying the move is bad, but I certainly question the idea that, as it stands now, it contradicts the PMDT's stated goal for edgeguarding:

• Offstage edgeguarding is risky but rewarding, while on-stage edgeguarding is safer but less rewarding.

I'm okay with them changing it if it's to make sweetspotting more intuitive or just look less janky, but it shouldn't be changed under the premise that it makes his recovery too good or is too hard to edgeguard, as both of those ideas are without merit.

2) I'm not sure if you want the grounded FJP (Fire Jump Punch), aerial FJP, or both nerfed, since you complain about both jab and up air leading into it, but I'll address both. Jab FJP isn't free, or even close to it, especially since there's no reason you should be letting Luigi fish for jabs on you (nevermind the fact that you can get out of it by DIing the jab (and sometimes just by not holding in since Luigi's jab hits you out a little bit), SDIing the jab (if you're ambitious), CCing the jab and then shielding the FJP (or using a quick move out of crouch), or even just shielding when you hit the ground, since the Luigi player has to react to you getting hit by the jab before using FJP). It is slightly buffed from Melee, as the FJP is active frames 5-6, from just frame 5 in Melee (this means the hitbox interpolates, making it effectively larger than it seems if Luigi is sliding while using it; this doesn't have much of an effect on jab FJP though as Luigi isn't moving much in that 1 frame), and his improved air speed after using it improve his ability to escape and edge cancel on whiff (though Abate goes for FJP in Melee knowing that it will edge cancel so it's hardly a new phenomenon; he mentions this in his FPV interview), but those changes certainly don't make it safe or free. Aerial FJP is already pretty significantly weaker than grounded FJP (25 damage, 70 BKB, 73 KBG vs. 21 damage, 52 BKB, 72 KBG). The hitbox is also already about as small as rest's hitbox (I don't remember the exact sizes, but it's quite apparent from debug mode), although it is in a better location than rest's hitbox.

3) Making tornado transcendent would nearly completely gut Luigi's already mediocre ability to deal with projectiles and disjoints. If you're ever getting hit by grounded tornado in neutral, you're doing something wrong. PM players generally don't take advantage of this for various reasons (less matchup knowledge, not being jerks, etc.), but Luigi's linear approach options get beaten out hard by the defensive options of Melee's top tier characters. This is one of the major reasons for his midtier status. Tornado clanking is pretty much the only thing that makes Marth's disjoint remotely bearable for Luigi (remotely bearable is somewhat generous). Taking that away would be a major hit to an area of Luigi's gameplay were he is already quite weak. Moreover, it's really not even remotely safe. Quite a few projectiles hit him out of it, it's very susceptible to crouch cancelling, it has about 35 frames of ending lag, you can grab him out of it, and, of course, it can just be shielded on reaction very easily and then it does absolutely nothing (except 14 shield damage). I'm also not sure what kind of stage you're bringing Luigi to where he can safely zip away after reacting to your shield. I can only dream of a land that big.

4) Up air already has 100 KBG, which is quite high. Up tilt has 123, 125, or 127, all of which are quite high. Up air sends at a 70 degree angle and up tilt sends at a 100 degree angle. With proper DI, Luigi can't get the kinds of followups that you're suggesting (especially up air into FJP) or many 7-8 hit combos (except maybe on light fastfallers). You arbitrarily claim that floatier characters aren't supposed to have good combo potential. Who says? You? Why should a Melee midtier be fundamentally redesigned because of your baseless rules? You're claim that Luigi doesn't get combo'd as hard as other floaties is irrelevant. As the character with the worst air speed in the game and one of the slowest fall speeds, Luigi gets juggled very hard. What's important is how hard the character gets punished, not just how hard they get combo'd, and Luigi can definitely get punished hard.

5) Why would they change his air speed? Not only would this discourage Melee Luigi players from picking him up in PM, but it would also unnecessarily normalize a character with a cool movement quirk (he can't really move diagonally). It would also improve his combo game, which you claim to dislike, by giving him better followups on opponents that properly DI his moves that hit vertically. It may also make his missile useless for recovery. One of my favorite things about PM compared to, for example, Brawl Minus or SD Remix, is that the PMDT, whenever possible, seems to keep the fundamental properties of characters the same (or as close to the same as is feasible) as they are in Melee both to allow players to more easily switch between games and to stay faithful to the character's archetype. I'd prefer that they keep Luigi's air speed terrible like it is and buff other aspects of the character if they think he needs buffs.

Overall your suggested changes would utterly gut him as a character, taking away what makes him unique/decent, and make him an empty shell of his former self. (Insert further exaggerations here).

I said before that I think there are reasonable ways to change Luigi that decrease the jank without fundamentally straying from his Smash Bros. identity. Here are a few suggestions, some of which would address the underlying concerns in your ridiculous list of suggested changes:

• Make grounded up special have it's pitiful Melee air speed. This way, it's even easier to punish on whiff, like in Melee, without giving him the "the stage is right there but I'll just fall to my death" issue with his recovery from Melee. You might suggest Luigi players would instead choose to go for aerial FJP because it would then be the safer option, but, if they chose to do that, they'd have to finish his jump squat before using the move (effectively slowing the attack down by 4 frames) and it would be significantly weaker, due to differences between grounded and aerial FJP. Also maybe give it only 1 active frame, so as to totally get rid of the interpolation. As I said before though, the interpolation doesn't really make much of a difference.
• Remove grounded cyclone's ability to rise off of the ground (and give the aerial version the foot hitbox). Grounded cyclone's best use is probably techchasing. The ability to rise off the ground currently allows Luigi to hit with the second hit of cyclone for a pretty wide percent range (hit with first hit and then mash to get second hit). This would not link nearly as well with this change. This would also get rid of some of the, in my opinion, sillier things Otek was able to do with cyclone in his sets with Professor Pro. EDIT: After playing around with it a bit more, the 3.6 nerfs to the height gained from cyclone make this change pretty unwarranted. The move is already very punishable and the 3.6 nerfs heavily reduced its utility on the stage. He simply can't get the second hit in a lot of scenarios anymore.
• Put visual indicators on the screen indicating which way to DI each of Luigi's attacks. Perhaps neon arrows. That way, he won't get any of those pesky long combos that floaties aren't supposed to have.
• Replace down air with another FJP.
• Replace up special with Ryu's shoryuken from Smash Wii U/3DS (the weaker version, of course).

 

[EmptySky00]

So rest and 9's are ok, but not the shoryu? Insteresting logic..


Puff can u-tilt, u-throw and jab reset rest =P

The first one is completely straw man and the second one is contingent upon a lot more factors than simply landing a jab. 9 is randomized and relatively slow and rest is the biggest commitment move in the entire game. Even then they lead to volatile gameplay. Shoryuken is virtually risk free in a lot of situations which is why I dislike it mostly. Drift back to the ledge, land on a platform, why the hell not?

 

[Shokio]

Can you not advocate fundamentally altering the tools of a character because of your own personal salt?

Ah, the "you're obviously salty/you obviously lose to this character" card. Such a generic, immature, automated-defense-system response. Can we leave that at the door please? In your first sentence you indicate that you clearly didn't read everything I said. (And the part about the Dair was clearly jokes)

An Up-B nerf, change in ledge grab box that would make it logically make more sense, a speedy horizontal burst movement option no longer keeping him safe, and more KB on Uair would change the fundamentals of the character? Really? Those have nothing to do with the innards of Luigi. His wavedash, double aerials, and tech chase punishes are Luigi's fundamentals. Either you're being way too inclusive with the term "fundamentals" or you used the wrong word, because everything I said definitely doesn't really affect the way he would play outside of maybe Down-B, which I'll get to.

I'm okay with them changing it if it's to make sweetspotting more intuitive or just look less janky, but it shouldn't be changed under the premise that it makes his recovery too good or is too hard to edgeguard, as both of those ideas are without merit.

That's actually what I said. I said "you could bring it higher and he would still be safe". I understand the importance of the Side-B having a good grab box, but there's literally no reason for it to be that low. Visually and design-wise it's silly. It could be around Captain Falcon height and he'd be fine.

2) I'm not sure if you want the grounded FJP (Fire Jump Punch), aerial FJP, or both nerfed, since you complain about both jab and up air leading into it,

I didn't say anything about the aerial Shoryu.

but I'll address both. Jab FJP isn't free, or even close to it, especially since there's no reason you should be letting Luigi fish for jabs on you (nevermind the fact that you can get out of it by DIing the jab (and sometimes just by not holding in since Luigi's jab hits you out a little bit), SDIing the jab (if you're ambitious), CCing the jab and then shielding the FJP (or using a quick move out of crouch), or even just shielding when you hit the ground, since the Luigi player has to react to you getting hit by the jab before using FJP).

What's funny is that this is the exact defense Roy mains used on here for the dtilt, "You can just DI, CC it, etc", but yet that wasn't really accepted from a large portion of the community. Some of these same people saying "react to the jab" are the same people who've complained about other quick combo moves into finishers. Yes, technically you could do those things, but telling people to react to something as quick as a jab is silly for obvious reasons. I don't know the exact frame data but I'm gonna assume the jab is 2-4 frames. Telling people to react to *wavedash --> insta-poke is pretty much unrealistic. It can be done, yes, but if the player actually knows that that's EXACTLY what the opponent wants to do than they'll snuff them before Luigi even gets in anyway.

"Free may be a strong, inaccurate term, but essentially all we meant was it's pretty easy to do. Dong pretty much jabs to Up-B whenever he feels like it. Again, yes, if we want to be politically correct something can be done about it but players do not operate on a TAS level. When a Luigi player is letting Jab --> Up-B fly like there's no tomorrow on players like Sethlon, Oracle, and Dakpo, then something is clearly up. (Inb4 "those guiz just don't know what they're doing")

3) Making tornado transcendent would nearly completely gut Luigi's already mediocre ability to deal with projectiles and disjoints. If you're ever getting hit by grounded tornado in neutral, you're doing something wrong.

Not really man. It's pretty easy to get hit by something that just kinda "wooooo watch out!" swoops at you at blinding speeds lol. Especially if you throw or hit him and then he "gets out of hitstun" and warps up in your face saying "Whaddup bro? Catch this Up-B."

Tornado clanking is pretty much the only thing that makes Marth's disjoint remotely bearable for Luigi (remotely bearable is somewhat generous). Taking that away would be a major hit to an area of Luigi's gameplay were he is already quite weak. Moreover, it's really not even remotely safe. Quite a few projectiles hit him out of it, it's very susceptible to crouch cancelling, it has about 35 frames of ending lag, you can grab him out of it, and, of course, it can just be shielded on reaction very easily and then it does absolutely nothing (except 14 shield damage). I'm also not sure what kind of stage you're bringing Luigi to where he can safely zip away after reacting to your shield. I can only dream of a land that big.

I understand this completely, but there's many characters in this game who also don't have a single tool to mitigate their blaring, intentional weaknesses. Gotta look at things "in a vacuum" as the Dev Team likes to say. What does Bowser have that's actually effective against projectiles? Jack s***. And I think you missed the important part about Down-B being a Burst Movement Option. If something is going to be a burst movement option (AND an attack/combo tool on top of that), it needs to have appropriate risk. It's actually part of the Dev Team's mission statements with 3.5:

Right now, you can throw the Down-B out, clank with a projectile, and you just reset to neutral without taking any damage. Like I said before, the only time there's actual risk is when you leave the ground, but like I said, you have time to see if the opponent is sheilding and you can just stay on the ground and distance yourself to where your don't stop near them. Some chars can still get the ground punish, but really it depends on their speed, wavedash, and/or speed of attack.

But yeah, you can just kinda "Yooooloooo" Down-B toward somebody, clank, be like, "Damn dawg that didn't work, let me back up and figure somethin else out." It's all about balancing risk vs. reward, and with this down-B, the reward clearly outweighs the risks of using the move. Imagine if projectiles just auto-clanked against Ike's QuickDraw........

As for CC, the move tends to actually put people into a knockdown state. I feel that the move should be primarily used for tech chasing - as a punish tool when you've ALREADY created an opening - as opposed to being a moved that is currently used to CREATE the opening.

4) Up air already has 100 KBG, which is quite high. Up tilt has 123, 125, or 127, all of which are quite high. Up air sends at a 70 degree angle and up tilt sends at a 100 degree angle.

I'm pretty sure KB values are not universal. What I mean is, stating the KB value of a move in the sense that there's a universal scale is folly. For instance, Olimar's Ftilt has 100 KBG, and Metaknights Down-B has 100 KBG, but they're obviously not at the same launch power. So saying Luigi's Up-Air is at 100 KBG doesn't automatically mean it's high enough. Also, the angle is pretty negligible considering Uair doesn't really send you anywhere. At mid percents, Uair places someone right above and in front of Luigi for another free Up-air and then another and another. In this case, DI is only a factor if the character is actually being sent anywhere, but the Uair has a really low BKB it seems.

or many 7-8 hit combos (except maybe on light fastfallers).

You must be doing something wrong then, because Luigi can execute some pretty long strings, and commonly.

You arbitrarily claim that floatier characters aren't supposed to have good combo potential. Who says? You? Why should a Melee midtier be fundamentally redesigned because of your baseless rules? You're claim that Luigi doesn't get combo'd as hard as other floaties is irrelevant.

It's not my claim, it's a law created by the game. Fast-fallers are the combo kings because they return to the ground quicker, meaning they can come back up for a follow-up much faster. Floaties sacrifice an impressive combo game in exchange of not getting combo'd too hard themselves. This is Smash 101, this has nothing to do with me or my personal philosophies.

Do you see Power-Suit Samus typically doing long strings? Peach? Kirby? Zelda? No. Do you see Wolf, Roy, and Falcon doing long-azz strings? Yes. I wonder why...

Luigi gets juggled very hard.

LOL is this real life right now? xD. I think this is another case of you using the wrong terminology. "Juggled" is a combo term. What I think you mean is that he has a hard time coming down because he gets walled up there by isolated Uairs. It's a form a punish either way so yes I agree with you, it's just that you're making it seem like Luigi is this character who is just as susceptible to regular combos as the average character, which is silly to imply.

5) Why would they change his air speed? Not only would this discourage Melee Luigi players from picking him up in PM, but it would also unnecessarily normalize a character with a cool movement quirk (he can't really move diagonally).

Now this one is a lot more subjective and complicated. Where as everything above I would say "Yeah, this needs to be tweaked", this last one was more of a pure suggestion/idea. I wouldn't really deem it as necessary at all, so this is much more open-ended for discussion.

But characters have had their air speeds adjusted before I don't remember any fanbases complaining about it. Snake got slightly better air movement, for instance. And I also answered your question in my post you responded. I suggested more air speed to help him have an easier time getting down - for compensation of having a slightly nerfed combo game.

It would also improve his combo game, which you claim to dislike, by giving him better followups on opponents that properly DI his moves that hit vertically.

It's like I said above, it would help compensate for the Uair changes. It wouldn't make it better overall because the combo game was nerfed a bit in another area.

Overall your suggested changes would utterly gut him as a character, taking away what makes him unique/decent, and make him an empty shell of his former self. (Insert further exaggerations here).

Well, I'm glad you can admit that's an exaggeration cause I like I said at the beginning of this post, nothing I said would actually change the fabric of the character except the Down-B slightly. I wasn't talking about any removal of mechanics, just altering of pre-existing ones. I didn't take away his Dash Cancel or his Divekick Dair (Metaknight) (remember what other players have already had to go through).

• Make grounded up special have it's pitiful Melee air speed. This way, it's even easier to punish on whiff, like in Melee, without giving him the "the stage is right there but I'll just fall to my death" issue with his recovery from Melee. You might suggest Luigi players would instead choose to go for aerial FJP because it would then be the safer option, but, if they chose to do that, they'd have to finish his jump squat before using the move (effectively slowing the attack down by 4 frames) and it would be significantly weaker, due to differences between grounded and aerial FJP. Also maybe give it only 1 active frame, so as to totally get rid of the interpolation. As I said before though, the interpolation doesn't really make much of a difference.
• Remove grounded cyclone's ability to rise off of the ground (and give the aerial version the foot hitbox). Grounded cyclone's best use is probably techchasing. The ability to rise off the ground currently allows Luigi to hit with the second hit of cyclone for a pretty wide percent range (hit with first hit and then mash to get second hit). This would not link nearly as well with this change. This would also get rid of some of the, in my opinion, sillier things Otek was able to do with cyclone in his sets with Professor Pro.
• Put visual indicators on the screen indicating which way to DI each of Luigi's attacks. Perhaps neon arrows. That way, he won't get any of those pesky long combos that floaties aren't supposed to have.
• Replace down air with another FJP.
• Replace up special with Ryu's shoryuken from Smash Wii U/3DS (the weaker version, of course).

So we pretty much agree in conclusion with the Cyclone then. I still don't think it should clank with most things though. I mean, Luigi DOES have a projectile of his own. He'll have trouble with the likes of the Links of course, but for characters with only one, slower projectile, he can throw out a Fireball to simply cancel it out. You make it seems as if the Down-B is literally his only answer to projectiles. And never forget about the universal answer to projectile: platforms.

#4, lol, I know how DI his attacks. Again, DI means hardly nothing in this situation when a move isn't sending you anywhere. If I'm Roy and you're Fox and I dtilt you at 20%, you can DI all you want; you're still gonna catch this FSmash lol.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I honestly cannot be fucked to read all that, so I'm just gonna say that I think luigi having wavedash jab->up-b is okay. It's okay for characters to have good things, so long as they don't have too many good things, or have an adequate number of bad things. Keep in mind that the luigi has to hit-confirm the jab to know that it's going to connect into the up-b, meaning he has to know there's no special ASDI/SDI happening, no CC->shield, etc, or else he could get drastically punished. While the general burden of performance is in favor of luigi (the opponent has to be doing more to escape the jab than luigi has to do to confirm the jab once it hits) I think it's okay that luigi has ways to threaten opponents immediately out of wavedash. He relies entirely on wavedash to move, and wavedash is 15 frames of commitment that characters with good, normal DDs don't experience. As such, I feel it's fair for wavedash to offer better rewards to luigi for using it to get in so long as he uses at a time when it won't be stuffed by a projectile/counter-aggressive approach/walling/etc. Luigi is a good example of a character where ROB's laser is actually a decent neutral tool. If the Luigi finds himself caught in wavedash ~12-15+ frames after ROB starts a laser depending on the distance the laser needs to travel (this is not a reactable timeframe where he could just avoid wavedash in order to prepare for laser) then he's going to get hit, stopping any potential approach and tacking on chip damage

 

[Shokio]

I don't think anybody said it needs to go away, the consensus (from those suggesting changes) is that it simply needs to be toned down a bit. Given it's reward, it's not THAT dangerous to attempt is the point here. The knockback pushes most characters really far back which gives Luigi time to ledge cancel the Up-B or grab a ledge.

I simply don't think it should just kill as early as it does. Dong typically kills his opponents before 80%. That Shoryu is definitely better than just a "good thing".

 

[Nausicaa]

@ Nausicaa Are you sure the Snake buffs were quite so targeted towards a specific playstyle?
C4 cooldown was lowered, but keep in mind sleep duration was also lowered, so this may have been introduced to avoid punished-on-hit situations at low percent or something. So is the main problem here the new tranq?
On the other hand, increased aerial mobility and the new nair, fair, and bair all seem pretty generically good for mid-range spacing (and non-C4 KOs). Probably still not a solid foundation by themselves, of course, which is my best guess at what your main point is. Also, doesn't crawl tilt help round out his ground game a bit?

Here's a way of looking at it that might help a bit.

People are talking about taking away Luigi's Up-B and Down-B. Mostly due to the spam of them by Luigi's in recent times.
Take those away, and he's still a good character.

Take Puffs B-Air and Rest away, and she's really not a good character at all.
Take DK's Grab and Donkey Punch away, and he's really not a good character at all.

Take Snake's C4 and Grab away, and is he still a good character?
Without those tools, he has no way of breaking neutral, nothing to aim for when he gets positional advantage and sets up shop, no way of ending stocks.
At least nothing that even comes CLOSE to matching what those tools bring. DACUS or Up-B combos or aerial finishers or whatever are FEEBLE in comparison.

He then looks like an 'ok' character at best (better than Puff/DK would be without their tools) but he's a lot more centered on THESE tools that most characters are centered on ANY of their tools. He leans that way. A LOT harder leaning than people seem to be giving credit to.
That is all. I really don't think he should be catered to that when a meta-game will already have him gravitate that way.


Late Edit: I'll add this as well.
Yes, a TRANQUILIZER DART

being INTANGIBLE makes absolutely no ****ing sense.

 

[Scuba Steve]

I don't believe down-b is as free as it's made out to be, but it certainly fits the bill in regards to stuff that's been getting removed from 3.5 onward. I think Luigi could lose some capabilities on it and still be a competent character without the core of his character getting changed.

I don't think uptilt or upair need to be adjusted like Shokio suggested. They seem fine to me

 

[PlateProp]

Last time you said something like that to me, you got flamed by people other than me for it.

Though I'm open to hearing something on this one (try not to be so blunt and maybe it'll make sense and turn into a discussion), because I very well could be given it's about Squirtle this time, he's full of tech-stuff all the time, and you didn't get attacked for this one.

As far as I can tell, 3.6 got a bunch of armor adjustments and some small tweaks like a bigger N-Air and a smaller Up-B
What exactly in Squirtles Bread-and-Butter was nerfed in a way that he's worse?
I'm genuinely not seeing it. At all.

^ I think that may sound kind of harsh by the way I wrote that, but wasn't meant to be.
Just sayin, if you're gonna do that again, at least explain a bit or it'll be just a silly as last time. You can convo better than that, we've had good discussion before.


Luigi is bottom tier for life shut up everyone.
2.0 to 4.0, he's taking it to the grave baby.

Dirtboy and I both said that hydrograb was messed up earlier in the thread dude

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Squirtle changes barely matter, how did he get nerfed?

Armor reduced/removed in some cases, hydrograb and movement shenanigans like that removed, smashes got nerfed pretty hard except for kill power.

All this added up is a pretty hard nerf imo, just because Squirtle was a character who didn't need nerfs, and they nerfed the points that he really shouldn't have changed.

 

[D e l t a]

The thing that irks me about Luigi's downb is his initial burst momentum and the distance he can immediately gain from ground -> air. Basically the second a Luigi player realizes they're in a bad situation they'll either mash B to rise up or use the insane speed he retains to retreat completely safe against most characters.

The only change I'd suggest is to reduce grounded priority and not make it clank with practically everything

Lunchables also by no means deserves a top seed. He has done nothing other than beat people in his own region.

Take your fanboying **** outta here.

Yeah beating top players in one of the best regions in the U.S. definitely doesn't deserve top seed. Just like Fox doesn't deserve to be #1 on a tier list because nobody in PM has been winning majors with him.

 

[didds]

Armor reduced/removed in some cases, hydrograb and movement shenanigans like that removed, smashes got nerfed pretty hard except for kill power.

All this added up is a pretty hard nerf imo, just because Squirtle was a character who didn't need nerfs, and they nerfed the points that he really shouldn't have changed.

Armor removal was for general metagame health and doesn't hurt squirtle too much, he just needs more precision and thought while approaching.

im not super familiar with how hydro grab stuff was changed, but again, squirtle's mobility is good enough to mitigate this a bit and i dont know about the chain grab stuff that was mentioned earlier and how it was affected, but he still can follow up on bad DI and uair and dair gives him plenty as far as racking damage and comboing goes.

losing dsmash follow ups for a wider range of percents is definitely a nerf, and i personally dont know how i feel about it yet. On one hand, a move that sucks you in and sets up easy follow up and is a wd away from coming out anywhere on stage could be dumb, but squirtle doesn't have too many overpowering options in the air so again, that change being good or bad depends on how good you perceive squirtle to be in the first place.

I gladly trade armor for fsmash knockback improvement though, now i have a grounded horizontal kill move i can use out of a read tech roll/tech in place.

How much squirtle changes bother a player seems to relate super heavily to play style.

Personally, the only noticeable difference to my playstyle has been that i dont go for dsmash into kill as much since it just doesnt work as well anymore, and i go for less upb kill finishes due to the hitbox moving in.

on the other hand, fsmash has become much more useful in a "non-parry" sorta traditional smash way and wd/wl to ftilt is still amazing and will start combos since its not feasible to be ready to properly DI every ftilt that comes. uair also still combos opponents to oblivion whenever platforms are available, especially when incorporating the hard and soft hits.

 

[LupinX]

People complain about Snake's slow-*** tranq being intangible while Falco's lasers are 10x better and actually interupt neutrals...

 

[didds]

People complain about Snake's slow-*** tranq being intangible while Falco's lasers are 10x better and actually interupt neutrals...

I think it's more that lasers are obviously ridiculous tools that just don't need anyone to mention how busted they are at this point.
Just like how people ignore fox and talk about other, less agreed upon potential issues.

 

[Draco_The]

People don't complain about lasers because everyone knows that the PMDT won't do anything about them because of Melee.

 

[CORY]

[qu

Just like how people ignore fox and talk about other

great, now you did it...

 

[Seagull Joe]

The thing that irks me about Luigi's downb is his initial burst momentum and the distance he can immediately gain from ground -> air. Basically the second a Luigi player realizes they're in a bad situation they'll either mash B to rise up or use the insane speed he retains to retreat completely safe against most characters.

The only change I'd suggest is to reduce grounded priority and not make it clank with practically everything

Yeah beating top players in one of the best regions in the U.S. definitely doesn't deserve top seed. Just like Fox doesn't deserve to be #1 on a tier list because nobody in PM has been winning majors with him.

I thought wasn't the best last patch. It was clearly . had losing and even matchups.

In addition, Texas is a weaker region then both MD/VA and NJ/NY. Lunchables still can't even beat Oracle to my knowledge.

Look at Aftershock:

Lunchables autoqualified to be 1st seed from a strictly Texas area point system to a 16 man bracket. Beats a Texas player in Round 1 and then a who fought through an open bracket round 2. He got to top 5 through playing 2 matches. He then lost to iPunchKidz and Junebug (Who played 15-18 matches?).

Lunchables is good, but giving someone a top seed for winning solely in their own region is unwarranted and biased. Bracket theory would indicate he'd deserve a good seed, but top 4/6? I think not.

 

[didds]

[qu
great, now you did it...

if we're quiet noone will notice