Tier List Speculation

[steelguttey]

because we play a fake game

 

[jtm94]

He shouldn't be shield poked, it does still happen, but most of the time he won't be.


Chain Jacket actually isn't that inconsistent. It is indeed a 1 frame trick, but I found a setup for it and once you get the visual cue it isn't hard to grind it out and nail it like 5 out of 7 times. That being said it isn't very good for what it does because it is hard to remember how each move attaches to the chain and it's possible to get it, but be in a position where the hitbox won't even stop them from reaching the ledge. I believe dsmash was the best hitbox to attach.

 

[DrinkingFood]

OMFG WHY CAN YOU HOLD SHIELD TO ASC
this is the stupidest **** ever, if you don't believe me go test it
pick lucario, forward smash someone and as you do it, hold shield, from the start of the fsmash
then press B when it hits
tada, you just ASC'd with lucario
I don't understand why other characters can't cancel charge moves in the same way, why does the character that gets the most absurd uses out of it also get the most braindead way to chage cancel
PMDT plz

 

[Shokio]

So how does everyone feel about ? I just recently watched Dongs sets with Oracle and Sethlon, and he looks amazing.

Luigi's broken.

 

[jtm94]

OMFG WHY CAN YOU HOLD SHIELD TO ASC
this is the stupidest **** ever, if you don't believe me go test it
pick lucario, forward smash someone and as you do it, hold shield, from the start of the fsmash
then press B when it hits
tada, you just ASC'd with lucario
I don't understand why other characters can't cancel charge moves in the same way, why does the character that gets the most absurd uses out of it also get the most braindead way to chage cancel
PMDT plz

Yeah I think I found that out when I was testing infinite wall climb with Sheik, Samus, and Lucario in debug mode. I just use soft press with Lucario so I don't air dodge on accident and it puts away the aura sphere.

 

[DrinkingFood]

it's not the soft press I'm talking about though. All characters with charging specials can use soft press. I'm talking about not even needing to relatively time the soft shield press. You could hold soft press while b-reverse wall climbing and it would automatically cancel the aura sphere on the first possible frame every single time.

 

[Kapapanerp]

Luigi's broken.

Broken? No, but he's got some really janky stuff. Misfires are kinda redonk, to be fair.

 

[jtm94]

Luigi is still good because Shoryuken punish is AMAZING and people need to stop underrating it. I'm not saying it's top tier balls to the wall busted, I get he has to rely on WD as a movement option instead of dash dance and that he is floaty so going airborne is a commitment due to bad air mobility, but he has some strong redeeming qualities.

Oracle and Dakpo both got hit by it a lot where they made the mistake to NOT DI his dthrow for some reason, as if it is neither slow nor his only throw. Things happen though and no one is perfect, but Dong's setups into it aren't exactly free.

 

[InfinityCollision]

OMFG WHY CAN YOU HOLD SHIELD TO ASC
this is the stupidest **** ever, if you don't believe me go test it
pick lucario, forward smash someone and as you do it, hold shield, from the start of the fsmash
then press B when it hits
tada, you just ASC'd with lucario
I don't understand why other characters can't cancel charge moves in the same way, why does the character that gets the most absurd uses out of it also get the most braindead way to chage cancel
PMDT plz

...hah. Yo PMDT, can the rest of the charge crew get a piece of this?

 

[Strong Badam]

Luigi is still good because Shoryuken punish is AMAZING and people need to stop underrating it. I'm not saying it's top tier balls to the wall busted, I get he has to rely on WD as a movement option instead of dash dance and that he is floaty so going airborne is a commitment due to bad air mobility, but he has some strong redeeming qualities.

Oracle and Dakpo both got hit by it a lot where they made the mistake to NOT DI his dthrow for some reason, as if it is neither slow nor his only throw. Things happen though and no one is perfect, but Dong's setups into it aren't exactly free.

D-throw isn't a slow throw, but I do agree that Luigi doesn't have a throw that is threatening vs the DI you should be using against his D-throw. You pretty much hold behind Luigi whenever you think you could get grabbed, and change if he starts bthrow.

 

[Shokio]

Broken? No, but he's got some really janky stuff. Misfires are kinda redonk, to be fair.

I gotta remember that everyone in here isn't from Texas;I like to just slap the "broken" label on any silly or really good character. ex: "DDD can gordo-dash? DDD's broken."

It's who I am lol. Luigi is an incredibly strong character though with some questionable design.

 

[Professor Pro]

My current tier list opinions of 3.6b (Characters not ordered within tiers):
S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
F:

and are actually stupidly broken this patch. Godlike recovery, easy access combos, easy to land kill moves, and extremely quick aerials.

I thought I proved Snake was OP by now


Time to keep on destroying people to show Snake is top 2 and has zero losing matchups

Has ProPro been doing work across the water still? I feel like I don't get to see much from over there, but maybe I'm just not looking for it.

I am going Paragon and likely 2 other American events with PM at this year.
Pretty much looking to win all of them, especially Paragon

 

[Fortress]

and we have no big streams here. The only time anybody cares is when a big names comes to one of our tournies.

Sounds like Montana.

 

[D e l t a]

Time to keep on destroying people to show Snake is top 2 and has zero losing matchups

Not sure if kappa considering Marth, Sheik, Ivy, Ike, etc

I am going Paragon and likely 2 other American events with PM at this year.
Pretty much looking to win all of them, especially Paragon

Looking forward to seeing you attend some American events again. I'd also like to see you fare against m2k and other upcoming national threats as of recently.

 

[Dakpo]

playing against luigi was one of the only times I've ever played Pm and not had fun because the character design was absolutely busted. His Up B is Freeeee to land and kills at insane percents

 

[Manaconda]

Edit: Post removed on the grounds that it's stupid.

 

[didds]

so make it useless at anything but point blank

Yea, as opposed to useless for anything. Covers landings and opens opponents up for grabs.

I was joking but anything is better than flamethrower as it stands

 

[Nausicaa]

I thought I proved Snake was OP by now


Time to keep on destroying people to show Snake is top 2 and has zero losing matchups

Are the improvements to "what Snake was already great at" what you were hoping for?

I figured he was strong enough in the areas that were touched, that they didn't need touching.
How do you deal with Ike?
^Something to deal with his type of stuff better, like a quicker combo-D-Tilt or F-Tilt or something to cover fast approaches or poke at closer mid-ranges or something would've been more what I expected.

Instead his go-to stuff which was already CRAZY good, was made CRAZY gooder...





Lucario can have holding-shield be a charge cancel because I'll break my shield buttons if I have to hard-press it every time I hit someone and need to cancel 5 things and do this every 5 seconds.

Luigi is still good

What do you mean 'still' good?
He's never been good and not allowed.
Bottom tier for life.

PS/Edit: All counter-play for Luigi is still bleh. Most of what dong/otek were doing was like Hail-Mary hopes because they were getting a way with it. Prof caught on to some in his set, but the Luigi shouldn't have been doing most of that anyway from rising DownBs on shield to whatever, same with seth/ora and the unpunished unecessary UpB flailing.
It's like the Diddy problem, where 3.02 didn't really have to do much.
Soon Luigi's will have to learn to play.
I mean no he sucks shadap

 

[Boiko]

I am going Paragon and likely 2 other American events with PM at this year.
Pretty much looking to win all of them, especially Paragon

See ya there with the rest of NY.

 

[Scuba Steve]

The only thing that I still think needs to absolutely be changed on Luigi is his side-b ledge grab box. It still reaches waaaaaay above his head. Besides that, I don't really have too many complaints about him. A lot of setups into shoryuken that Dong uses are either DI traps or he just catches you sleeping when you miss your cc to shield on the jab -> shoryuken, at least from my experience playing him. Once you play him more, you basically expect it.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I thought I proved Snake was OP by now

Time to keep on destroying people to show Snake is top 2 and has zero losing matchups

I am going Paragon and likely 2 other American events with PM at this year.
Pretty much looking to win all of them, especially Paragon

I won't lose to you a 2nd time. I look forward to Paragon and seeing you in bracket .

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Snake got good movement options to get himself out of early situations (but he's still Snake lol). The fast sticky allows him to stick with little consequence, which is fine by me because sticking isn't easy. Though I believe he's still under-buffed compared to the cast. He's still situational as ever and can be played more aggressively and apply more pressure. His C4 can also be used more as traps now that detonation is faster. He can recover faster at least lol.

I find saying, "sticking isn't easy", to be quite suspect. He already had a pretty easy setup into c4 with uthrow at early percents, and you could stick through shields. Sticks weren't hard to get, and the fact they got easier blows my mind.

I'm calling it right now, snake is going to be a sleeper in this patch, and if more people besides prof find out how ridiculous this character is, you'll be seeing a lot more snake on people's high section of their tier lists.

 

[Shokio]

The only thing that I still think needs to absolutely be changed on Luigi is his side-b ledge grab box. It still reaches waaaaaay above his head. Besides that, I don't really have too many complaints about him. A lot of setups into shoryuken that Dong uses are either DI traps or he just catches you sleeping when you miss your cc to shield on the jab -> shoryuken, at least from my experience playing him. Once you play him more, you basically expect it.

That definitely needs to get adjusted. He grabs the ledge from an insanely low height. There's definitely other problems though, like how easy it is to combo into such an insane kill move (Up-B) and his burst movement (Down-B)

I'd say:

1) Ledge grab box normalized.
2) Either jab KB adjusted, Up-B hitbox made smaller (nah), or Up-B KB REASONABLY reduced. It's way too free as-is.
3) Grounded Down-B made slightly slower and/or doesn't clank. Needs to get cleanly beat out by projectiles and disjoints. It's way too safe for such a quick burst movement option. It's punishable if they stop right on you or end up above you, but you can't even punish it with a projectile as it's coming and they can just zip away from you to prevent punishment if they see you shielding. It's low-risk-pretty-good reward burst movement. No. Go away.
4) Give Uair and maybe Up tilt higher KBG or send further horizontally. Luigi's combo game is pretty insane, even low-level Luigi's tack on 50-70% once they land an up-tilt and then go into 20 Uairs --> Shoryu or Fair/Dair. Floaties are not supposed to be combo fiends, Zelda, Samus, Peach, etc, typically aren't doing these 7-8 hit combos into finishers. But Luigi is. And for who is probably the hardest floaty to safely combo, he shouldn't combo so hard.
5) Give him slightly better air speed.

And this is just personal salt: Patch his Dair out of the game. It's an aerial Roy FSmash and hits like a bu, no, tank, for no reason. Jesus that move is godlike xD

 

[Seagull Joe]

is free to . I can place a banana in front of me and peanut. If he picks up the banana then I get to go ham on him because he can no longer Nair LOL. with an item in hand is possibly the worst character in the game. No issues here.

 

[Shokio]

is free to . I can place a banana in front of me and peanut. If he picks up the banana then I get to go ham on him because he can no longer Nair LOL. No issues here.

You have it good. The rest of us are still in the hood :'(

 

[Scuba Steve]

That definitely needs to get adjusted. He grabs the ledge from an insanely low height. There's definitely other problems though, like how easy it is to combo into such an insane kill move (Up-B) and his burst movement (Down-B)

I'd say:

1) Ledge grab box normalized.
2) Either jab KB adjusted, Up-B hitbox made smaller (nah), or Up-B KB REASONABLY reduced. It's way too free as-is.
3) Grounded Down-B made slightly slower and/or doesn't clank. Needs to get cleanly beat out by projectiles and disjoints. It's way too safe for such a quick burst movement option. It's punishable if they stop right on you or end up above you, but you can't even punish it with a projectile as it's coming and they can just zip away from you to prevent punishment if they see you shielding. It's low-risk-pretty-good reward burst movement. No. Go away.
4) Give Uair and maybe Up tilt higher KBG or send further horizontally. Luigi's combo game is pretty insane, even low-level Luigi's tack on 50-70% once they land an up-tilt and then go into 20 Uairs --> Shoryu or Fair/Dair. Floaties are not supposed to be combo fiends, Zelda, Samus, Peach, etc, typically aren't doing these 7-8 hit combos into finishers. But Luigi is. And for who is probably the hardest floaty to safely combo, he shouldn't combo so hard.
5) Give him slightly better air speed.

And this is just personal salt: Patch his Dair out of the game. It's an aerial Roy FSmash and hits like a bu, no, tank, for no reason. Jesus that move is godlike xD

Does Zael really beat up on you that bad? lol

 

[InfinityCollision]

Great to know you've had plenty of PM practice to adapt.

You might want to re-read his post a little more carefully.

I'm inclined to agree with Naus re: Snake changes. A character that was already highly effective at blowing up stocks (often literally) is now even better at it/can do so more easily, while he gets destroyed in turn just as hard as ever. I'm genuinely surprised they opted to buff C4 in this scenario instead of evening out his matchups somewhat by addressing the latter.

And seriously, PMDT please given buffered charge cancels for everyone. I'm actually a little jealous of Lucario mains right now.

 

[Manaconda]

I'm ****ing stupid lol. Guess I owe Dakpo an apology.

I knew something was up because that name was so familiar and he has a PM avatar.

 

[Shokio]

Does Zael really beat up on you that bad? lol

Me and Zael go even. Those are problems you probably haven't recognized since Dong uses only 2 moves to beat 99% of Austin.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Me and Zael go even. Those are problems you probably haven't recognized since Dong uses only 2 moves to beat 99% of Austin.

And apparently the top 1% of DFW too hue

 

[DrinkingFood]

Rumor has it EVERYONE beats the top 1% of dallas hue

 

[LupinX]

I find saying, "sticking isn't easy", to be quite suspect. He already had a pretty easy setup into c4 with uthrow at early percents, and you could stick through shields. Sticks weren't hard to get, and the fact they got easier blows my mind.

I'm calling it right now, snake is going to be a sleeper in this patch, and if more people besides prof find out how ridiculous this character is, you'll be seeing a lot more snake on people's high section of their tier lists.

If sticks were hard to do, aka 3.5 but were stronger, then I wouldn't mind. Sticking through shield is Snake's version of shield pressure and it's worse than ASC, shines, magnet etc. Though I must admit, camping with Snake is much easier this patch because of his aerial mobility and faster C4, something I know will happen when I looked at the changes before I played and that I cannot agree with. I preferred the buffs to focus on things that will really help Snake, like aerial mobility, detonation timing, and his horrendous f-smash from 3.5. The fast stick however kinda made him a lot better, to which was even too much for Snake. The thing with Snake is that he is really situational when he plays. It's super easy to counter him if you figure him out. He is a "slow" character that is technical. His neutral game isn't that good, and it's super easy to combo him and his recovery is predictable. He is good, but not "ridiculous". He is not even top 15, but top 20 at most.

 

[Nausicaa]

I find saying, "sticking isn't easy", to be quite suspect. He already had a pretty easy setup into c4 with uthrow at early percents, and you could stick through shields. Sticks weren't hard to get, and the fact they got easier blows my mind.

I'm calling it right now, snake is going to be a sleeper in this patch, and if more people besides prof find out how ridiculous this character is, you'll be seeing a lot more snake on people's high section of their tier lists.

You might want to re-read his post a little more carefully.

I'm inclined to agree with Naus re: Snake changes. A character that was already highly effective at blowing up stocks (often literally) is now even better at it/can do so more easily, while he gets destroyed in turn just as hard as ever. I'm genuinely surprised they opted to buff C4 in this scenario instead of evening out his matchups somewhat by addressing the latter.

And seriously, PMDT please given buffered charge cancels for everyone. I'm actually a little jealous of Lucario mains right now.

If sticks were hard to do, aka 3.5 but were stronger, then I wouldn't mind. Sticking through shield is Snake's version of shield pressure and it's worse than ASC, shines, magnet etc. Though I must admit, camping with Snake is much easier this patch because of his aerial mobility and faster C4, something I know will happen when I looked at the changes before I played and that I cannot agree with. I preferred the buffs to focus on things that will really help Snake, like aerial mobility, detonation timing, and his horrendous f-smash from 3.5. The fast stick however kinda made him a lot better, to which was even too much for Snake. The thing with Snake is that he is really situational when he plays. It's super easy to counter him if you figure him out. He is a "slow" character that is technical. His neutral game isn't that good, and it's super easy to combo him and his recovery is predictable. He is good, but not "ridiculous". He is not even top 15, but top 20 at most.

To these 3 things AKA Snake

He's already fairly centralized (due to essentially what LupinX just covered at the end of that post), was catered to that side of his game (as Infinity just mentioned), and the little changes that catered to other areas were hardly matching adjustments to the grab/C4 adjustments in terms of improvement (the 'other than profs style' that Pickle went over)

Basically this entire patch screams
-buff what is obviously already amazing about the character, and everything the only to-date top player using the character Snake (Prof) already does with the character, almost exclusively, so there's no reason for him to do much else, and others coming to the character eventually will gravitate to the same stuff as well-

It's like someone named HBox took PM Jiggs and made her B-Air bigger and gave her another jump.
(you could literally replace Snake with Puff, and C4 with B-Air in the 3 posts I quoted, and it would be analogous in all ways if B-Air was buffed lol)
Not at all trying to make an analogy for joke reasons or hyberbole. This is literally what it looks like regarding the Snake stuff.
Make Luigi's Down-B bigger hit-boxes and Up-B have 5 frames of invincibility on start-up.
Make Fox have a stronger U-Smash and U-Air not SDI-able.
Make Roy's D-Tilt longer and his Up-B bigger.
Make Ike's QD faster and his Grab bigger.
Make Snake's C4 faster and his Grab bigger.

I don't get how this happened. Really.

tl;dr
Centralization on top of centralization.
This is how we end up with things like Bowser Up-B staying and more armor spam, Sonic Down-Bs that break things, and Jiggs carried over in a centralized broken form.
It's fine to have that, to an extent.
But Snake REALLY REALLY REALLY doesn't need to have this done.
It's how entire games go down the drain. Dota got skinner-boxy in place of opportunistic decision making with its patches favoring commentators roaring and viewers sake, rather than game-play.

I'm just wondering why this was the direction, not saying it's 'bad' or good or anything, just really wondering if this is actually the direction that people had in mind for Snake when 3.5 was gonna get its 3.6 update, and actually the conclusion to that.
Or if there was some other reason for these changes. Because it really seems silly. (see rest of post)
:/


tl;dr #2 but on tier topic
Snake is good, always was good, but how he's better in 3.6 is making me feel like Dakpo just said about Luigi.
It just wouldn't really be fun to play against something so centralized. Not NOT fun, still fun because Smash, but you can only play against a Jiggs that B-Airs for days for so long, and Luigi that Down-Bs/Up-Bs for days so long (dong/otek talk), and Bowser (as Odds says) that Dash-Attacks for so long, a Sonic that spins for so long, an ICs that wobbles for so long, a Snake that gets the same finishing blow for so long.
Snake is good, always will be, because his Grab/C4 core-game is THAT good.
Now it's just... better at being SOOO GOOD
Then some priority switches in hitboxes for aerials and other stuff is nice, but really, it's so irrelevant relatively. lol


edit sooo many edits but I think it's done now

 

[Strong Badam]

Rumor has it EVERYONE beats the top 1% of dallas hue

U lookin for a money mach bro?

 

[Shokio]

And apparently the top 1% of DFW too hue

Shows just how godlike those moves are lol.

 

[DrinkingFood]

01100110 01110010 01100101 01100101 00100000 01101101 01101111 01101110 01100101 01111001

 

[Draco_The]

free money

 

[Narpas_sword]

01100110 01110010 01100101 01100101 00100000 01101101 01101111 01101110 01100101 01111001

only if you play as MK rob and are coming first.
You'll get coins every time.

I think i'll consider myself lucky at this point that noone in my area has specifically set out to learn ROB. Had a couple of players dabble with him, but nothing serious.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

I actually hate the PMDT for nerfing Squirtle hard again.

The nerf into 3.5 was fine but disappointing to Squirtle mains. Now he got nerfed hard again, and he's an average character that has so much tech and a huge skill cap. But no matter what he is still average, and he's not worth picking up.

Seriously, why would you wanna play a super technical character that is average no matter how technical you are? Being technical won't reward you, it'll just make you look better with a bad character.

 

[PlateProp]

I actually hate the PMDT for nerfing Squirtle hard again.

The nerf into 3.5 was fine but disappointing to Squirtle mains. Now he got nerfed hard again, and he's an average character that has so much tech and a huge skill cap. But no matter what he is still average, and he's not worth picking up.

Seriously, why would you wanna play a super technical character that is average no matter how technical you are? Being technical won't reward you, it'll just make you look better with a bad character.

Sado-Masochism