DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
interesting that mediocre squirtle mains seem to be the authorities on squirtle's viability
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
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DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
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D
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u aint **** ***** u think i give a **** about ur dumb 1s and 0s u ****in robot jones lookin ass mutha****a, dexter made u in his lab n called u stupid ***** the **** u think u are comin in here ackin like u hold a candle to my ***** oracle who u havent beaten in a set ever? ****in rosie from george jetson ***** bring me the goddamn paper u outdated housemaid model from 2015 rusty ass piece of ****
D
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Mazdamaxsti
Smash Lord
I don't even main him but he is (and will always be) my fav character in PM, and I hit he lab with this character even though he isn't in my mains.
Dakpo
Smash Lord
Luigi's Up B just does not make since if the direction of the game is to normalize each character.
https://youtu.be/JvXSj2W4pCk?t=450
Here is a video of me getting absolutely destroyed by Dong. I except that I lost but I do disagree with a lot of the interactions. I missed an attack in neutral and DIED at 48%...with one hit.. That is some Brawl minus stuff
https://youtu.be/JvXSj2W4pCk?t=302
I got JABBED in neutral at 65% that lead into an Up B, seems super extreme. On stages like Ps2, I'm literally in kill percent to a jab at 43%. Does this even sound close to a normalized character?
https://youtu.be/JvXSj2W4pCk?t=315
I miss an attack at 57%, die to a 2 hit combo? Up B has an INSANE hit box size for how strong and fast it comes out. The move is supposed to be difficult to land. Thats why its insanely strong. Jigglypuff has MASSIVE cool down after her rest. Luigi can cancel the lag of his Up B by sliding off platforms and edge. Could you imagine if JigglyPuff could cancel the lag of rest? Could you imagine jigglypuff if all she had to do was jab to confirm rests at 43%?
The move just doesn't make since. My suggestions would be to either make the Hitbox small enough to actually represent the move or nerf the power.
this move easily puts luigi in top 5
https://youtu.be/JvXSj2W4pCk?t=450
Here is a video of me getting absolutely destroyed by Dong. I except that I lost but I do disagree with a lot of the interactions. I missed an attack in neutral and DIED at 48%...with one hit.. That is some Brawl minus stuff
https://youtu.be/JvXSj2W4pCk?t=302
I got JABBED in neutral at 65% that lead into an Up B, seems super extreme. On stages like Ps2, I'm literally in kill percent to a jab at 43%. Does this even sound close to a normalized character?
https://youtu.be/JvXSj2W4pCk?t=315
I miss an attack at 57%, die to a 2 hit combo? Up B has an INSANE hit box size for how strong and fast it comes out. The move is supposed to be difficult to land. Thats why its insanely strong. Jigglypuff has MASSIVE cool down after her rest. Luigi can cancel the lag of his Up B by sliding off platforms and edge. Could you imagine if JigglyPuff could cancel the lag of rest? Could you imagine jigglypuff if all she had to do was jab to confirm rests at 43%?
The move just doesn't make since. My suggestions would be to either make the Hitbox small enough to actually represent the move or nerf the power.
this move easily puts luigi in top 5
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- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,563
Man what the... This definitely derailed past the point of playful trash talk into spam a while ago lol. Back on the topic of tier list discussion please <_<
dirtboy345
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2010
- Messages
- 715
Squirtle didn't get nerfed hard man lol
D
Deleted member
Guest
Ok so while I do agree that luigis up b has too much KBG, the conclusion that you came to is HEAVILY biased and not really defensible. Luigis viability as a character heavily suffers due to the current meta revolving around a lot of his weaknesses, such as characters having a stronger ground game and ability to trap him in the air.
I'm sorry to call out my own partner, but you're looking at the character from the POV of your own character without looking at him from the POV of the rest of the cast. Most of the other high tier/top tier characters shut him down in neutral... I can't think of many characters he beats in the top 15 of the cast, let alone goes even with. I think you could make a case of saying luigi is like lower high tier, but top 5? Top 5?
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Kapapanerp
Smash Apprentice
While I can agree that shoryu is a tad too strong, saying he's top 5 simply because of that is asinine. He struggles hard against a ton of the cast. Spacies, marth, roy and tink come to mind specifically.
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Shokio
Netplay 4 Days
Yeah Top 5 is a little ridiculous to say based off the fact that he has too many bad MU's to be that high, but he does have some busted things about him. His design is little silly. He's like the new Yoshi (except not actually as bad, it's just the closest thing I can liken him to.) He's jank.
Regardless though, nobody should be ready to die at 43% (outside of Rest, 9's, and OHKO's of course).
xD
Regardless though, nobody should be ready to die at 43% (outside of Rest, 9's, and OHKO's of course).
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Kapapanerp
Smash Apprentice
So rest and 9's are ok, but not the shoryu? Insteresting logic..
Puff can u-tilt, u-throw and jab reset rest =P
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TheGravyTrain
Smash Ace
Squirtle changes barely matter, how did he get nerfed?
PlateProp
Smash Master
Losing hydrograb momentum was a pretty big nerf
Shokio
Netplay 4 Days
Rest has an appropriate hitbox size and risk factor to justify it's strength. Jiggs essentially can't even use the move once she gets to like 50% because if she misses that means it's her stock, so it's actually limited to low-percents where she can afford the risk. The Shoryu is both pretty decently sized as well as safe as long as there is a platform around you or you're near the ledge.
A 9 is pure RNG and doesn't come out instantly, and depending on the number you can get punished for even attempting to get one. You really don't see the difference between a 9 and a jab --> Shoryuken? Like, really, I have to explain this?
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Player -0
Smash Hero
Wait Squirtle lost hydrograb?
A bunch of small hits on Squirtle. Personally I still want a D-Smash revamp that scoops up for combo extension/sucking in to setup.
A bunch of small hits on Squirtle. Personally I still want a D-Smash revamp that scoops up for combo extension/sucking in to setup.
Kapapanerp
Smash Apprentice
If there is a difference in size between rest and shoryu it's laughably minor, and the fact that the 9 is rng based seems insignificant. All three of these moves can be set up, all at varying degrees of risk. One thing I will say is you shouldn't be able to grab ledge after a wiffed shoryu, that's pretty redonk.
Player -0
Smash Hero
Puff = Super light and super floaty. Rest has time enough for Fox to kill you from 0 if you miss. Hitbox is tiny.
G&W = Judgement actually broken?
Luigi = Is dumb. Jab -> Up B why.
G&W = Judgement actually broken?
Luigi = Is dumb. Jab -> Up B why.
Shokio
Netplay 4 Days
It's pretty significant. The point is is that you can't get a 9 whenever you feel like it, but you can Shoryu whenever you feel like it. Again, a missed Rest from Jiggs means death. A missed Shoryu from Luigi kinda means nothing. I mean you can hit him with an aerial or smash attack or something, but it's not like you're gonna get this really good combo punish on him and he's not glass like Jiggs. He can take a hit no problem.
I mean, not even Bowser's F-Smash kills G&W at 50% from the middle of DP though, I just checked. And that's with no D.I. too.
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PlateProp
Smash Master
We lost momentum carrying into grab meaning we can no longer do chain grabs with it, and lost two amazing kill options (Hydro fthrow > up/f smash) and all other possible stuff that the momentum allowed us to do. Though it was probably just an oversight when they did throw release changes
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Ripple
ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2006
- Messages
- 9,633
you know that Bowser F-smash took a SEVERE hit in knockback this patch? its probably weaker than ike's f-smash now.
and why are you doing it in the middle of DP? thats not even on the same x-axis
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Xykness
Smash Journeyman
Jab Up B is not guaranteed, unless they catch you before you hit the ground. You can shield after jab, but it happens fast and most people don't react fast enough. Luigi is not top 5... he is really good though. Do you even have experience against good Luigis? It just sounds like you are being too quick to make excuses as to why you lost when you didn't know how to deal with the MU. There is no way I will ever be able to believe that Luigi is top 5. He had more potential to be close to the top 5 last patch with that insane dpad trick (which I had used for a bit and found that recovery was beyond easy).
Shokio
Netplay 4 Days
Whoops, I thought the 42/48% kill was on DP. Coincidentally I can't boot up PS2 on my setup cause it freezes on me (gotta fix that). But for the record, Ike's FSmash doesn't kill G&W at 48% either.
(And yeah I know Bowser's got nerfed but it's still easily the first FSmash you think of when you think of moves you don't wanna get hit by lol.)
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Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
Not if you're an Ike main
If you're an Ike main you have nightmares about Marth's grab.Edit: To explain, Marth juggles Ike for essentially free, can get you offstage quite easily off a grab and his kit essentially counters Ike's recovery. If you don't sweetspot Aether you're dead and Marth can easily tell when you're drifting for Aether (because you're not Side-B'ing lol) and bair you out of it. Not salty cuz I love Marth too, just edgeguarding Ike as Marth is all sorts of flowchart.
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Professor Pro
Smash Legend
lol I actually forgot I beat you tbh and was actually just replying to your tier listI won't lose to you a 2nd time. I look forward to Paragon and seeing you in bracket
(My subconscious mind taking shots?)
See you at Paragon though
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
I have been unpleasantly annoyed when sleeping on Seagull before, but no way in hell is he beating Pro.
ThegreatVaporeon1
Smash Ace
Jab up b is not guaranteed and is avoidable. You can shield it. You can also cc -> fast move to punish jab (like yoshi's down b, or gnw's dtilt). It was guaranteed in brawl, though to my knowledge. Plus keep in mind that luigi does not really have a way to combo into grounded down b aside from his jab (which should be used as a mixup option anyways), whereas puff's rest can be combo'd into and kills much much earlier. Luigi's Aerial up b can be combo'd into, but it's also a lot weaker. Also a whiffed up b is a pretty easy punish since he falls so slowly.
Response to shokio: He kind of needs that side b ledgebox. I'd agree with making it normalized if this was 3.5 with his ridiculous down b, but as of right now with it shortened, it'd be incredibly tough for him to get back, if at all. At anytime during his recovery, you can just hit him once and it's a stock. Down b does not refresh anymore, so there is absolutely nothing you need to worry about; you can hit him at anytime during the down b. Side b no longer has invincibility and lasts a while, so you have so much time to punish. The side b ledgebox is the safest thing luigi can do during his recovery, which can be easily countered by an aerial while he approaches ledge, given the fact that anything and everything beats side b. Worst thing that would happen would be a trade, which would be in the opposing's character's favor anyways, if it's not raw misfire.
Response to shokio: He kind of needs that side b ledgebox. I'd agree with making it normalized if this was 3.5 with his ridiculous down b, but as of right now with it shortened, it'd be incredibly tough for him to get back, if at all. At anytime during his recovery, you can just hit him once and it's a stock. Down b does not refresh anymore, so there is absolutely nothing you need to worry about; you can hit him at anytime during the down b. Side b no longer has invincibility and lasts a while, so you have so much time to punish. The side b ledgebox is the safest thing luigi can do during his recovery, which can be easily countered by an aerial while he approaches ledge, given the fact that anything and everything beats side b. Worst thing that would happen would be a trade, which would be in the opposing's character's favor anyways, if it's not raw misfire.
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Xykness
Smash Journeyman
And even with the missile snap... just grab ledge when you see the startup and force them to vertically recover. Or pick shiek, grab ledge and throw bairs out lol
dirtboy345
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2010
- Messages
- 715
Devils advocate losing good use out of hydrothrows is a lot more than a niche tweak, but it could be fixed after beta maybe?
Shokio
Netplay 4 Days
I don't need tips vs. Luigi people, trust me. I'm probably the most trained man in Dallas vs. Luigi due to infinite games with Zael lol. I used to edge-guard him in 3.5. Don't mistake me talking about a characters design as me having trouble vs. that character. I talk about how poorly designed Zelda is all the time, but I've never actually lost a set to a Zelda. I talked about 3.5 Yoshi all the time before Hamyojo even came around. Heck, I've actually talked about Yoshi ever since the 3.0 days.
Luigi's side-b literally loses to everything, I know that. I just don't see any reason for it to snap at the ledge that low. There's higher spots he could grab ledge that would still keep him safe. Also, I don't see what the Down-B nerf has to do with the SIDE-B sweetspot....ya kinda lost me there. But basically, I think the question everyone should ask whenever discussing design is, "Does that make sense?", or, "Is that necessary?"
I don't see his incredibly low sweet-spot as necessary.
Luigi's side-b literally loses to everything, I know that. I just don't see any reason for it to snap at the ledge that low. There's higher spots he could grab ledge that would still keep him safe. Also, I don't see what the Down-B nerf has to do with the SIDE-B sweetspot....ya kinda lost me there. But basically, I think the question everyone should ask whenever discussing design is, "Does that make sense?", or, "Is that necessary?"
I don't see his incredibly low sweet-spot as necessary.
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Xykness
Smash Journeyman
I agree that its pretty insanely big, Shokio. Its unlike anything in the cast, but there are ways to deal with it. I would expect a change in its size at some point and I was surprised it didn't happen in this last patch honestly. Whenever I get that ledgesnap, I just shake my head because of how stupid it can be lol. Luigi is far from "broken," however. That is mainly what I am trying to state.
jtm94
Smash Lord
I don't see how a character with that level of movement needs a single move punish that does that much. He has plenty of moves that hit like a truck. Just because the jab > UpB has counterplay doesn't mean that it isn't stupid. Fox's Jab > Upsmash was a worse version on a better character, but it was still dumb. I don't think anyone is reacting to Luigi's frame 3? jab and SDIing it hard enough to escape UpB, and even then @
Dakpo
did that and was behind Luigi from the SDI and still got hit.
Quite frankly I still despise Luigi UpB and misfire because they both still have invincibility. Also comparing the punish you get on Puff vs the punish you get on Luigi is hilarious. Even if rest KOs, if it wasn't a star KO she still dies.
@
Shokio
isn't it funny that any argument for a character being decent receives tons of responses claiming you are playing the MU incorrectly and takes away from the true discussion? It happens to me with Sonic all the time and people tell me "just ftilt at him and win it's that easy"
Luigi's sweetspot actually goes right through Sheik's nair and bair at the ledge. It isn't like Sheik has any crazy setups on Luigi, it's not like he's combo food. GnW feels far better against Luigi than Sheik just because nair is big enough to out space all of his recovery attempts and hits hard enough to stop his recovery now, thank you 3.6.
I'm not going to say Dakpo was playing the MU correctly/incorrectly, but Dakpo started throwing games away because he was visibly peeved at the character he was playing against and played noticeably worse. If he's used to playing Zael or whoever, it is likely that they never punished half as efficiently as Dong does so he died to a lot of stuff that was never abused against him before. You have to respect Luigi an incredible amount, can never go in for combos, and can only get uair juggles until he's at KO percent.
Dakpo
did that and was behind Luigi from the SDI and still got hit.Quite frankly I still despise Luigi UpB and misfire because they both still have invincibility. Also comparing the punish you get on Puff vs the punish you get on Luigi is hilarious. Even if rest KOs, if it wasn't a star KO she still dies.
@
Shokio
isn't it funny that any argument for a character being decent receives tons of responses claiming you are playing the MU incorrectly and takes away from the true discussion? It happens to me with Sonic all the time and people tell me "just ftilt at him and win it's that easy"Luigi's sweetspot actually goes right through Sheik's nair and bair at the ledge. It isn't like Sheik has any crazy setups on Luigi, it's not like he's combo food. GnW feels far better against Luigi than Sheik just because nair is big enough to out space all of his recovery attempts and hits hard enough to stop his recovery now, thank you 3.6.
I'm not going to say Dakpo was playing the MU correctly/incorrectly, but Dakpo started throwing games away because he was visibly peeved at the character he was playing against and played noticeably worse. If he's used to playing Zael or whoever, it is likely that they never punished half as efficiently as Dong does so he died to a lot of stuff that was never abused against him before. You have to respect Luigi an incredible amount, can never go in for combos, and can only get uair juggles until he's at KO percent.
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Dakpo
Smash Lord
I find it interesting that you really think he gets shut down in neutral with the best burst movement option in the game. I also find it interesting you say he loses to sword characters when he double eliminated sethlon the last time they played and that was in 3.5 (aka pre-nerf)...It seems like you are suuuper underestimating this character. Now I can see how he can get camped out by projectile based characters, he has the mobility potential to fight any spacing war.
Did you even watch the video? I didn't die at 42% lmao. But with proper DI, GnW will die at 43% on PS2. I was just saying it was possible
Also do you even hear yourself dude? essentially getting ike F-smashed?!?
Since when is it ok for a 4 frame move to be lag-cancelled, used in the air, comboed into (even out of d-throw), and the strength of an Ike F-smash?
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net...8d/Bruh.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140909194811
This character has amazing potential. He is at absolute minimum top 8. How could you not be amazing with that up B lmao