Tier List Speculation

[NoNameNessMain]

i could see a good case for bottom 5. i have no way to refute that ness isn't the worst either, but that's mostly because the game is new.

People say he's bad because they use him without knowing what they're doing.

 

[Giygacoal]

Ness has some serious fair + weird jumps shenanigans.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Ness's double jumps alter his body position greatly by their animations. Since there are two directions to double jump, and air mobility to account for, he has one of the hardest to read vertical movements in the game.

Now if only double jump canceling could be done in the middle of an attack by releasing Jump while the attack is happening.

 

[Vashimus]

Can the PMBR even code negative-edging?

People say he's bad because they use him without knowing what they're doing.

That's what they all say. And even then, it never holds much weight by itself.

 

[NoNameNessMain]

Can the PMBR even code negative-edging?



That's what they all say. And even then, it never holds much weight by itself.

Is that your rebuttal? Do you expect me to shrink away and say "Oh, you're right, Ness is bad, Vash-sempai..."? Of course just saying that people are clueless isn't going to hold much weight, it's a simplified argument with one premise based on experience. The thing is, people won't stop arguing that Ness isn't bad because there are going to be people who will spend the time to learn the character and notice the things others haven't. Individuals are allowed to ignore the metagame, especially given that it is in its infancy. When Melee and Brawl had years for players to figure things out until the metagame became more stagnant, PM is being treated like everything is already established. I'm not just saying Ness is better than people think because they don't know the first thing about him, I'm saying we know substantially less about this game than we all appear to be pretending.

 

[Bryonato]

Ness is a solid mid tier, just imo. Definitely on the lower mid side, but he has too many tools to be bottom 5.

 

[Translucent]

Can we really say that any characters have "too few tools" to be bottom 5? Every character in this game has something to show, so it's really not plausible to specifically say who is and who isn't in the bottom 5.

 

[Deleted member]

People say he's bad because they use him without knowing what they're doing.

That statement is equally blind as the generalized statement that Ness is bad with no premise (but we are using a premise with basic observation). That said, you could actually be correct but you should be aware that your assertion is blind- you're making a rather large assumption about a lot of people and their relative cognition. Even if you're right and they do not know what they are doing, it's essentially on you to verify that statement since it's easier and more reasonable to assume that the character is bad if he performs poorly.

Is that your rebuttal? Do you expect me to shrink away and say "Oh, you're right, Ness is bad, Vash-sempai..."? Of course just saying that people are clueless isn't going to hold much weight, it's a simplified argument with one premise based on experience. The thing is, people won't stop arguing that Ness isn't bad because there are going to be people who will spend the time to learn the character and notice the things others haven't. Individuals are allowed to ignore the metagame, especially given that it is in its infancy. When Melee and Brawl had years for players to figure things out until the metagame became more stagnant, PM is being treated like everything is already established. I'm not just saying Ness is better than people think because they don't know the first thing about him, I'm saying we know substantially less about this game than we all appear to be pretending.

I agree that we know less about the game than many people will admit to, but only to a point. Because this game functions similarly to a previous version of smash, we can take logical shortcuts to make judgments on relative character goodness. For example, even though Bowser is much improved in this game, prior experience in melee tells us as players that characters with limited mobility like PM Bowser can still be exploited even with some balancing application to his character and that his relative goodness as a character is unlikely to improve. Ness is this type of character- his mobility, range, and recovery (all of his flawed attributes) can be improved, but it's unlikely that they will ever be improved to the point where he becomes a tournament threat unless his balancing is clearly overcompensated (SONIC). For the same reasons, the opposite is true and we can use the same logical shortcuts to accurately predict that the characters without exploits or flaws will be viable tournament threats. Some of the brawl characters make it harder to identify how they will fare with the new mechanics, but Ness is not one of those characters.

 

[Vashimus]

Is that your rebuttal? Do you expect me to shrink away and say "Oh, you're right, Ness is bad, Vash-sempai..."? Of course just saying that people are clueless isn't going to hold much weight, it's a simplified argument with one premise based on experience. The thing is, people won't stop arguing that Ness isn't bad because there are going to be people who will spend the time to learn the character and notice the things others haven't. Individuals are allowed to ignore the metagame, especially given that it is in its infancy. When Melee and Brawl had years for players to figure things out until the metagame became more stagnant, PM is being treated like everything is already established. I'm not just saying Ness is better than people think because they don't know the first thing about him, I'm saying we know substantially less about this game than we all appear to be pretending.

Beware, fellow Smashers. Hell hath no fury like a Ness main scorned.

I never even said Ness was bad. In fact, I don't really have an opinion on the guy. I've just grown bored of the "you suck with him, he's actually good" argument that turns up often in this thread, since it just doesn't hold as much weight as actual results.

I agree with everything Umbreon just said.

 

[MegaGuy]

I've gotta echo what Umbreon said. I don't feel Ness has received significant enough buffs to facilitate a "placement" higher than mid tier.

 

[Juushichi]

mid tier is not bad in this game, but someone has to be there.

 

[Burnsy]

So characters like Ness are either doomed to be unviable or become Sonic 2.0, unless they get a full redesign? There's absolutely no middle ground? That's an interesting stance, but I dont know if I agree with it.

 

[Deleted member]

So characters like Ness are either doomed to be unviable or become Sonic 2.0, unless they get a full redesign? There's absolutely no middle ground? That's an interesting stance, but I dont know if I agree with it.

There is. I think Zelda fits this description actually. Zelda sucked, and then she was buffed just enough to be a good character without being too good or too bad. Her attacks feel totally ridiculous sometimes or she gets lamed out easily, but that's how it goes with mediocre characters sometimes.

The difference with Ness is that his flaws aren't that simple. Zelda is slow, so make her faster. For Ness, you have to rework his entire recovery or just replace it. Then you have to add a lot of range on his moves and make him faster when frankly his character model would make that visually impossible. If you want a more extreme example, consider brawl olimar's character model- how would you actually give that character 20- some actual attacks with clear visual cues? You want Ness's stumpy arms and legs to have range to compete with characters like Sheik and a run speed like Falcon? How?

And frankly, even though I'm saying that Zelda is the "successful" design here, that's only relative. Zelda is also pretty extreme to deal with depending on the match-up in either direction. I just can't see it happening on frames like Ness or Olimar (which is part of the reason that I congratulated the PM team for omitting olimar).

 

[Giygacoal]

Ness's ranged attacks were always based on stuff like melee weapons and colorful psychic effects. Extended range and distinct visual cues might translate decently if the graphics are clear enough (though I know close to nothing about the technical limitations of the PK visuals).
Fast run speed? Well, he could have his bike...Or he could float around like Mewtwo... Hey, at least the animation would make sense.

 

[GunBlaze]

(which is part of the reason that I congratulated the PM team for omitting olimar).

Explain yourself.

 

[FrootLoop]

he did explain himself

 

[Kink-Link5]

The sad part about Zelda's design is that it was marginally more acceptable in its Melee incarnation, however bad she was.

Ness doesn't need a good run speed to have a good dashdance

Negative edge DJC is still a cool concept.

 

[GunBlaze]

he did explain himself

I'm talking about that specific part I quoted.

 

[Deleted member]

olimar is stupid.

 

[SpiderMad]

Cougar is amazing

 

[CyberZixx]

What do ya'll think about Charizard?

 

[ItalianStallion]

What do ya'll think about Charizard?

Easily one of the best combo'ers in the game. Easily one of the worst defensive characters in the game. Charizard put all his eggs in one basket: comboing the opponent for a vertical kill. He has very few ways to reliably defend himself besides nair. Thusly, Charizard is mediocre in the hands of a player who spends a lot of time spacing and thinking out his approach, and he is amazing in the hands of a player like me that just goes all out attack the whole match.

I still have the viewpoint that this game has no need for a tier list. The whole point of a tier list is to have top tiers, middle tiers, and bottom tiers. But that is misleading because even a "bottom tier character" is still definitely viable at tournament play and has the tools to compete with any other cast member. With that in mind, I would say that what's more useful to the community isn't arguing tier lists, but arguing match-ups. The cast is all pretty well balanced between each other for there to be tiers. The balance isn't perfect for sure, and everyone has their opinions on who needs buffs and who doesn't. For example, I would say both Charizard and G&W don't need anymore buffs, but perhaps Squirtle, Pikachu, DDD, and Ness could use minor buffs. But maybe they don't need buffs and it's just because their metagame needs more time.

 

[Oracle]

but charizard has SHORYUKEN

protip: if you think ness needs buffs you probably aren't as good at this game as you think you are

 

[Juushichi]

GnW could use a buff.

Charizard could go DIAF.

Ness is Ness, so I mean w/e.

 

[Strong Badam]

nerf donkey kong

 

[B.W.]

Charizard could go DIAF.

Not sure how well that'd work...

 

[MVP]

nerf donkey kong

never

 

[Ripple]

Protip: ness might not need buffs, but he's still a bad character

 

[ItalianStallion]

but charizard has SHORYUKEN

protip: if you think ness needs buffs you probably aren't as good at this game as you think you are

Zard's UP-B is good at escaping pressure when your opponent is at high percents and they don't see it coming. But his UP-B is too risky as a super reliable pressure escape due to how punishable Zard is after he uses it. Also, if a person thinks Ness needs buffs, it's not that they aren't good at this game, but that they probably aren't too good with Ness. I think Ness is easily the number one hardest character to use in PM.

 

[Oracle]

Ness isnt bad lmao he has unblockable akuma fireballs

 

[trash?]

Unless you're toon link
then you make me sad. : (

 

[Juushichi]

Ness isnt bad lmao he has unblockable akuma fireballs

you don't get corner trapped by him though. Ness has to be broken on Shadow Moses Island though.

SMI P:M Tier list:
1. Ness
2. Fox
3. ???
4. Who cares!

 

[Problem2]

Ness isnt bad lmao he has unblockable akuma fireballs

I'm so glad calling them akuma fireballs is catching on!

 

[Kink-Link5]

Oracle's still adamant about Ness being something other than terrible?

 

[Juushichi]

He gotta stick up for the homies.

 

[Vashimus]

What do ya'll think about Charizard?

Auto-combos like crazy, with a number of his moves having decent speed, great range, and launching the opponent, and when combined with his high jumps and Fly, any stray hit can and will lead into a combo that may or may not lead to death. Excellent grab game thanks to an amazing grab range and useful throws. One of the best tech-chasers in the game with his down-throw, with d-smash covering practically every teching option the opponent could go for while netting him a free combo. Good recovery and heavy weight make him very resilient, and has a dash speed nearly on par with Fox. Charizard's all about offense and never letting the opponent out of his reach. I agree with ItalianStallion on how polarizing he is. He either does extremely well, or he gets blown up. But those are the problems that come with being such a large target that doesn't have much to offer defensively besides Fire Spin and Nair. All in all, great character and incredibly fun to use. If someone tried out P:M for the first time and wanted a good offensive character, Charizard would be one of the first I'd recommend, as he's very easy to get the hang of.

 

[Oracle]

you don't get corner trapped by him though.

I mean technically no, but it does trap you anywhere on the stage...

 

[Burnsy]

I still have the viewpoint that this game has no need for a tier list. The whole point of a tier list is to have top tiers, middle tiers, and bottom tiers. But that is misleading because even a "bottom tier character" is still definitely viable at tournament play and has the tools to compete with any other cast member. With that in mind, I would say that what's more useful to the community isn't arguing tier lists, but arguing match-ups. The cast is all pretty well balanced between each other for there to be tiers. The balance isn't perfect for sure, and everyone has their opinions on who needs buffs and who doesn't. For example, I would say both Charizard and G&W don't need anymore buffs, but perhaps Squirtle, Pikachu, DDD, and Ness could use minor buffs. But maybe they don't need buffs and it's just because their metagame needs more time.

I love this. I love you.

I'm probably going to get some hate for this, but I think this thread is really, really useless as far as advancing the metagame through discussion goes.

 

[trash?]

As opposed to putting our fingers in our ears and screaming whenever someone wants to acknowledge a character's strengths and weaknesses, which I'm sure would run like a jet engine

 

[MVP]

I still have the viewpoint that this game has no need for a tier list. The whole point of a tier list is to have top tiers, middle tiers, and bottom tiers. But that is misleading because even a "bottom tier character" is still definitely viable at tournament play and has the tools to compete with any other cast member. With that in mind, I would say that what's more useful to the community isn't arguing tier lists, but arguing match-ups. The cast is all pretty well balanced between each other for there to be tiers. The balance isn't perfect for sure, and everyone has their opinions on who needs buffs and who doesn't. For example, I would say both Charizard and G&W don't need anymore buffs, but perhaps Squirtle, Pikachu, DDD, and Ness could use minor buffs. But maybe they don't need buffs and it's just because their metagame needs more time.

i've been saying this for months.... great post Stallion