Tier List Speculation

[Kink-Link5]

It's just that ProfPro is like, notoriously amazing with Snake in the PM scene is all. So for people to hear "Are there any good snakes?" I can see why it would cause a double take.

 

[Jolteon]

Professor Pro sucks.

*Hides battle wounds*.

 

[SpiderMad]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=8gQIaWYqRO4#t=162s

 

[Burnsy]

I would only take a jab at you if I knew you. The character just sucks.

I respectfully disagree. Hopefully I'll make it to a Chicago tournament this summer to prove it to you.

not everyone has been playing PM forever or keeping up with the scene.

I didn't have PM until a week ago.

Why are you posting in this thread then? Sorry if that offends you but it legitimately bothers me.

 

[Ripple]

because when I did play it I was good at it.

Hylian/ORLY can probably vouch for my skill

 

[Burnsy]

Whether or not you were good at it doesn't mean you understand all characters, their matchups, or their metagame on the whole.

 

[Ripple]

Whether or not you were good at it doesn't mean you understand all characters, their matchups, or their metagame on the whole.

that's why I asked for a video of a good snake

I also never claimed to understand everything about every character. why are you so mad?

 

[Tero.]

y
people forget the insane potential of this character. hes extremely unexplored and very untiuitive for smash only gamers (alukard please pick this char up)
dude, you should have seen fuzzyness playing friendlies with his lucario at beast 3. **** made my jaw drop.
as a teaser:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxy7kVzJbAA&list=FL5-DlIb7uCDGWi0ROeIz9yQ&index=3
fuzzys friendlies are in the stream stuff from beast 3, ill try to find it and upload it to my channel
http://www.youtube.com/user/Hornilope

the thing with lucario is that all his OHC are easily countered by just crouch canceling.
the stuff seen in that highlight video is awesome, but it is highly situational. Like you can't combo fair safely into sideb anymore. You have to guess their DI and if your guess is wrong you'll get ***** for it.

edit: many of those scenes also required the use of two aura charges, which is unlikely to have most of the time. so for the crazy stuff seen there you'd have to deal 100% of damage first.

Lucario is still good and has a lot of untapped potential but he's far away from being on the same level as spacies, pit or whoever deserves to be top tier atm. (2.1. Lucario was silly tho :D)

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

silly tier:
sonic (no disrespect to wizzrobe, i look forward to seeing him win with a sonic that actually uses the a button)

top tier:
snake
lucas
lucario
pit
fox
falco
possibly wolf

roflmao tier:
link

Probably the most accurate tier list I've seen so far lol but
a. where do you place sheik? is she not top tier anymore?
b. I'd put mario at least even with lucario and wolf. I can handle pit being better than mario, but even that one's close.

 

[Burnsy]

Like you can't combo fair safely into sideb anymore. You have to guess their DI and if your guess is wrong you'll get ***** for it.

Ew I know. Characters shouldn't force us to think. Mindless guaranteed combos is such better design.

 

[Tero.]

Ew I know. Characters shouldn't force us to think. Mindless guaranteed combos is such better design.

good one.
No, it's more like you can't combo it at all if your opponent DI's it correct.

 

[Burnsy]

Iirc it does work at certain percents on certain characters. Its not like Lucario lacks other combos he could be doing. Fair>sideb was just so easy and so rewarding, anyone could just pick up the character and **** with it. I dont see that as a good thing, design wise.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

the thing with lucario is that all his OHC are easily countered by just crouch canceling.
the stuff seen in that highlight video is awesome, but it is highly situational. Like you can't combo fair safely into sideb anymore. You have to guess their DI and if your guess is wrong you'll get ***** for it.

edit: many of those scenes also required the use of two aura charges, which is unlikely to have most of the time. so for the crazy stuff seen there you'd have to deal 100% of damage first.

Lucario is still good and has a lot of untapped potential but he's far away from being on the same level as spacies, pit or whoever deserves to be top tier atm. (2.1. Lucario was silly tho :D)

yhea i know that video isn't a good representation overall, combo video etc. you have to see the best players i guess.

he has far more combo potential then fair->side b free stock every stock like in 2.1. doesnt even need it. you can still follow up with other stuff if they di, or they get a worse position because they di'd away: thats how combos in smash work

and is CCing really that effective? unless you have a shine you won't have time to counter between it. sure youll get your shield up so you can have it get ***** by lucario. besides you can combo into usmash early which always leads to tons of **** with the jump cancel etc

besides, with this logic of your opponent always making the right defensive option warios dsmash is useless: you can just di down and tech it every time and get a frame advantage on wario.

 

[Tero.]

Anyway only time can tell, we'll see in a few months.
I don't think Lucario will come out on top tho, but that might just be me and who am I anyway

 

[Professor Pro]

not everyone has been playing PM forever or keeping up with the scene.

I didn't have PM until a week ago.

Even if you were playing for a year it would be alright, not everyone can know everyone in the PM Scene lol.

Either way I don't have any recent videos due to Jolteon being a scrub and never wanting to record for youtube and always streams on twitch.tv ( and when we do record any recent footage of me winning magically never gets uploaded )

I have a more recent stream than this, but it's like 144p youtube quality and I won't damage your eyes with such atrocities. So I'll just copy and paste my most recent thing from the Snake video section.

Professor Pro (Snake) Streaming 4/28/13
0:00 - 9:17 vs Hoe4u (Pikachu)
17:16 - 32:02 vs Jolteon (A few Snake Ditto 4 stocks)
37:56 - 53:31 vs Alpha Dash (Wario/R.O.B/Diddy)

 

[Kink-Link5]

Prof, you'll never prove anything fighting such unviable characters as Pikachu, Diddy, and Snake with Snake.

Except of course that Pikachu, Diddy, and Snake are worse than Snake by boneslogic.

 

[Vashimus]

*Overswarm logic.

 

[Kink-Link5]

They're related but not the same

OS.logic is that because "results don't lie," tournament track records are an indicator not of what has happened but what WILL happen.

Boneslogic is that whichever character won the match wins the matchup and/or is better than the other character.

Example of OS.logic: King DeDede chaingrabbed these very currently relevant tournament characters, like R.O.B., Donkey Kong, and Snake and won like 5 tournaments, therefore, King DeDeDe is the third best character in the game.

Example of boneslogic: A relevant King DeDeDe 2-stocked a relevent Snake player, therefore, King DeDeDe is a better character than Snake.

Boneslogic relies more on who is using the character, OS.logic ignores this fact completely.

"Kink-Logic5" or whatever you'd call it is that the established metagame can only be properly observed by analyzing the top players and waiting long periods of time to see if any "Rock paper scissors" metagaming develops. Rather than traits and matchups being looked at in the positive, they are viewed through the negative; "What FAULTS does this character have," and "Who does this character lose to?" IT relies heavily on matchups, which in themselves are loosely defined due to the variable stages present in the game, and which can only be seen by observing the currently understood top-play of a character, which can itself only be understood by waiting for metagame cycles to develop. A bit of a Catch-22 I suppose. The core of it is "Wait a year for people to spread and learn characters, then wait another year before tournament results have weight." Other acceptable names for this logic are "P---yfoot logic," "Marth hasn't won a tournament in forever therefore D-tier Logic," and Andre the Giant.

All of these are obvious hyperboles of the original users' posts, but are just named because we all know what we mean when we say boneslogic.

As for why my tier list is the way it is? There's a reason the lowest tier is "mid" and the lowest character class is "C." And it's because I honestly don't want to jump to any conclusions that characters do have such problematic weaknesses as to be dispersed to more defined tiers. Does Squirtle feel terrible and have no sort of metagame to show? Certainly, but that does not mean he is outright bad- just put into the "low as limbo" tier. I try to adhere to an "innocent until proven guilty" mentality about characters, so character movement is more likely to be downward than upward. This also reflects my thoughts on, for example, Jigglypuff in Melee's apparent troubles with Young Link. In my mind it says more for Jigglypuff having weaknesses than it does for Young Link having strengths. It could be extremed into "reverse boneslogic" in that sense, but it also reflects on the current understood metagame, ie., what our community has established as its tier list. So rather than either Young Link shooting up or Jigglypuff slumping back down to Falcon tier, I personally think it just means putting her above Sheik was shortsighted in the first place. She's still a solid A or A+ character, with a touch of a weakness.

This reflection can be seen in my latest list which has "several characters moving up," or, from a reverse perspective, Charizard just moving down. Marth and the others didn't get magically better, and Charizard didn't get magically worse, but between playing the character more and seeing more of his weaknesses getting exploited from other Zard players, he gets a tap of a "guilty" verdict.

Low tier as limbo tier.

Heh, I didn't even think about that when I first typed it. How low can you go, Squirtle?

 

[Professor Pro]

Prof, you'll never prove anything fighting such unviable characters as Pikachu, Diddy, and Snake with Snake.

Except of course that Pikachu, Diddy, and Snake are worse than Snake by boneslogic.

lol Well that's the people who were there on the day. I'm not going to find or ask people to play Melee top tiers and then stream or record it to prove some point.
The point of me sending it was just to give Ripple an idea of Snake's gameplay.

 

[Kink-Link5]

You don't have to prove anything to me Prof., I've seen more than enough to be convinced of Snake's brazen grandeur.

That's a double entendre.

I have great respect for your playstyle too. Rather than explicitly trying to do new things with the character and thus having no consistency, you found something that works and went with it, and established an entire character's metagame basically singlehandedly. You don't go for overly intricate things or all that risky reads and just make the most out of a few solid hits. AND IT WORKS. That is the exact kind of playstyle I love and would emulate given the skill and playerbase to learn from. When I'm not just playing super homo on purpose of course.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

I'd put mario at least even with lucario and wolf. I can handle pit being better than mario, but even that one's close.

what do you think makes mario so much better then its melee counterpart?

They're related but not the same

OS.logic is that because "results don't lie," tournament track records are an indicator not of what has happened but what WILL happen.

Boneslogic is that whichever character won the match wins the matchup and/or is better than the other character.

Example of OS.logic: King DeDede chaingrabbed these very currently relevant tournament characters, like R.O.B., Donkey Kong, and Snake and won like 5 tournaments, therefore, King DeDeDe is the third best character in the game.

Example of boneslogic: A relevant King DeDeDe 2-stocked a relevent Snake player, therefore, King DeDeDe is a better character than Snake.

Boneslogic relies more on who is using the character, OS.logic ignores this fact completely.

"Kink-Logic5" or whatever you'd call it is that the established metagame can only be properly observed by analyzing the top players and waiting long periods of time to see if any "Rock paper scissors" metagaming develops. Rather than traits and matchups being looked at in the positive, they are viewed through the negative; "What FAULTS does this character have," and "Who does this character lose to?" IT relies heavily on matchups, which in themselves are loosely defined due to the variable stages present in the game, and which can only be seen by observing the currently understood top-play of a character, which can itself only be understood by waiting for metagame cycles to develop. A bit of a Catch-22 I suppose. The core of it is "Wait a year for people to spread and learn characters, then wait another year before tournament results have weight." Other acceptable names for this logic are "P---yfoot logic," "Marth hasn't won a tournament in forever therefore D-tier Logic," and Andre the Giant.

All of these are obvious hyperboles of the original users' posts, but are just named because we all know what we mean when we say boneslogic.

LMFAO this post is gold

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

what do you think makes mario so much better then its melee counterpart?LMFAO this post is gold

Because it's a different game. Because doc is relatively good in melee and because mario has been buffed beyond what doc was relative to the rest of the cast.
and cuz cape.

But feel free to correct me, this is a bunch of theorycrafting. afaik, no mario main has won a major tournament.

 

[Juushichi]

To be fair, there aren't many "major" tournaments for this game yet anyway.

I still doubt that MarioMaster1991 will come out and destroy the competition regardless though. I have to agree with Kink's appraisal of Prof's Snake play/meta development and already generally respect Prof's play and Snake's play in general. I wish GnW had it that good.

 

[Spiffykins]

edit: many of those scenes also required the use of two aura charges, which is unlikely to have most of the time. so for the crazy stuff seen there you'd have to deal 100% of damage first.

People overestimate how hard it is to get aura. True Lucario mains feel the aura coursing through their veins. They "RUUUUUUGGGHHH" every opportunity they get. It becomes their mantra. They can sense when they've gathered a charge mid-combo and use it instantly, sometimes causing a chain reaction of pure aural destruction. They lift their leg to mark their territory and assert their dominance over the other player.

Lucario is not just a character. Aura is not just a gimmick. It is a way of life.

RUUUUUUGGGGHH!

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

They lift their leg to mark their territory and assert their dominance over the other player.

I assume the player will spin around in this process? And properly mark their territory with a sacred bodily fluid, as per animalistic protocol?

 

[Tero.]

Why did nobody post here anymore?
Anyway what do you people think about Wolf?

 

[Spiffykins]

Why did nobody post here anymore?
Anyway what do you people think about Wolf?

I think he's super good. He's like if Falcon was a spacie...and had a broken dash attack.

 

[The_NZA]

I can't decide whether, given his weight, is he capable of outputting enough damage to justify his glass cannon nature. I certainly think he's heaps more difficult to use than the other spacies (way less brainless). You actually have to decide what moves you are going to use in the middle of a combo on the fly.

 

[Kink-Link5]

That's how the other spacies were for about 6 years, until BnB's became super widespread.

 

[MegaGuy]

I feel like Wolf's combo game is a little more flexible than his spacie brethren. His side B shenanigans are kind of gimmicky, but at the same time it's an ever-present threat. I agree with what NZA and Kink said; Wolf is/will be able to hold his own with the fox and bird, he just needs some time to grow up.

 

[Giygacoal]

With the help of his laser and new/well done animations, his combos are really stylish and satisfying. He just has a well-realized moveset.

 

[Spiffykins]

I feel like Wolf's combo game is a little more flexible than his spacie brethren. His side B shenanigans are kind of gimmicky, but at the same time it's an ever-present threat. I agree with what NZA and Kink said; Wolf is/will be able to hold his own with the fox and bird, he just needs some time to grow up.

One guy I played kept DI-ing in on shines every time he got to high percents to avoid the side b's after he got nailed a few times. Cool, free tipper fair, I'll take that tyvm, and you're still dead.

I can't decide whether, given his weight, is he capable of outputting enough damage to justify his glass cannon nature. I certainly think he's heaps more difficult to use than the other spacies (way less brainless). You actually have to decide what moves you are going to use in the middle of a combo on the fly.

I sort of agree, I find him way more intuitive and less cut-and-dry, but I don't think that makes him harder to use. His combos feel way more natural and more like a 'normal' character than Fox's, and his movement is much less restrictive than Falco's. Plus, his recovery is way better than Falco's, probably better than Fox's as well, so maybe he's not as much of a glass cannon as you think.

 

[Strong Badam]

Wolf is a fair space animal. Really cool, really fun, technical, except his weaknesses are relevant enough that his strengths don't necessitate the entire cast being designed around him.

 

[Giygacoal]

What exactly are his weaknesses?

 

[Spiffykins]

What exactly are his weaknesses?

He's a fastfaller who isn't absurdly OP. That's literally his only weakness.

 

[Scythe]

being a fast faller is a really big weakness though, espeically in PM where half the cast can chain throw fast fallers. Also his shine is CCable, recovery has a lot of lag and he has no sex kick like the other spacies.

 

[MegaGuy]

Being a fast-faller's only gonna get worse once MK comes around. Real talk though, Wolf's my favorite spacie to use, and I don't even play spacies. Scarring the stage and KO-ing unsuspecting would-be edgeguarders is hilarious.

 

[Kink-Link5]

He's a fastfaller who isn't absurdly OP. That's literally his only weakness.

How is falling fast a weakness? If you're getting hit in the first place it's because the other character exploited your or your character's weakness. How do you "exploit" Wolf falling fast as a weakness in this regard?

For a more relevant weakness, Wolf's moves are generally not very meaty and require a bit of extension, leaving him open on whiff more so than, say, Sheik's bair. If and when you see Wolf getting hit it's generally because he missed and got appropriately punished.

 

[NightShadow6]

Charizard for top tier.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Not as long as Lucas, ZSS, and Link are around.