Tier List Speculation

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Sanic hedhog remains in omgwtfbbq/loose cannon tier with gdubs and wario, despite wizzy's success. that being said, I really hope that pmbr doesn't do a knee-jerk ike nerf, because sanic isn't that good, and seeing wizzy just destroy everybody is hilarious.

 

[Ripple]

ike needed a nerf anyway.

he had infinite walljumps and no sour spots (or a not very different sweetspot) on his aerials. this caused him to be absurdly safe with no lack of power. Ike is completely fine as what he is right now.


sonic on the other hand is not fine at all.

did you see the part where wizz did DA or spin dash on M2K over and over again? that part is a huge issue. WIzz hit M2K and then WDed out of it and then hit M2K again with it. guess what happened when M2K teched? he still got hit. Sonic is so fast he can cover ALL tech options without even being that close to the opponent. sonic doesn't even need to make reads off tech chases, he can simply react to all of them by running a little back and charging spin dash.


not only is that a problem but sonic can out camp projectile users with only spin dash. ALL projectiles (but falco's/rob's laser) clank AND lose to sonics spin dash. they don't even return him to a standing position. Sonic can simply spin into projectiles and act as if they were never there.*

*testing done and reported by unknown522 after he lost to wizz

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Yeah, but so far only wizzrobe can even do that. If everybody can just pick up sanic and win like wizzrobe like people could with ike or mk, then there's a problem. With a little more knowledge of the match, it appears as though unknown could have won. Nairs can beat spindash as well as falco's shines. All that you said is true, but just because it is true doesn't mean that sanic needs to be nerfed.

that's interesting about the projectiles though, that might need to be fixed.

 

[CyberZixx]

Regardless if only one person is doing it, Sonic is still an issue. His design is dumb and must be changed.

 

[trash?]

Alright cool, I was waiting for something like Zenith to pop up. Tier List Round 2, LET'S GO.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1XBzv_Q5WpTrchiNXC7hlXBGDv_gBc9JSbvd1ALouADQ/closedform

Usual deal, I'll stop accepting responses when there's a good enough number to get a nice list out of.

e: God damn, that last page is shameful. If any of you ever wonder why you're never going to get laid, question why you're so defensive over how creepy you are.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Alright cool, I was waiting for something like Zenith to pop up. Tier List Round 2, LET'S GO.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1XBzv_Q5WpTrchiNXC7hlXBGDv_gBc9JSbvd1ALouADQ/closedform

Usual deal, I'll stop accepting responses when there's a good enough number to get a nice list out of.

e: God damn, that last page is shameful. If any of you ever wonder why you're never going to get laid, question why you're so defensive over how creepy you are.

I contributed my ****ty and uninformed opinions

 

[Hylian]

A lot of the reason people got bodied so hard by wizzrobe is that they have no idea what sonic is doing lol. I mean, sonic is pretty dumb for sure, but it looks a lot worse when he's bodying people who don't even know what moves he's using. They would do much better if they had extensive experience against the character.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSUWlXSo6Ww

When I first played sethlon he destroyed me over and over but after practicing against his sonic for literally hours and hours I started doing much better and going almost even with him, even though he's a better player than me.

 

[Beorn]

Well, I also think that Link has one of the better match ups vs Sonic. Not to mention you are the best Link in PM. Link's tools against sonic are just effective man.

 

[Hylian]

Well, I also think that Link has one of the better match ups vs Sonic. Not to mention you are the best Link in PM. Link's tools against sonic are just effective man.

I don't understand how links tools are more effective against sonic than fox's >_>. I think link does well against sonic yeah, but I also think everyone was DIing Wizzrobes combos horribly and could have lived much longer against him lol.

 

[The_NZA]

I think you are right but to bring two counterpoints:

1. What Beorn probably means is Link's moveset is about keepout, and he strongly is able to keep people out of a bubble around himself much better than many other characters. So far, keeping hte blue ball of death out of your personal space is the primary way to play against him.

2. Sethlon in Febuary (the dates of your recordings) was, I would argue, not as good as Wizzrobe was at Zenith. Maybe your arguments are still right, and everyone was simply being rocked by stuff within Sethlon's tool set. But the **** Wizzrobe was doing seemed pretty hard to read, yet alone react to. It seemed like Hbox had to guess a lot to take games off of him.

I don't really fall into either camp, but I lean towards saying "even if people figured out how to play against him, Sonic would still be the top character of PM in his current form".

 

[Hylian]

I think you are right but to bring two counterpoints:

1. What Beorn probably means is Link's moveset is about keepout, and he strongly is able to keep people out of a bubble around himself much better than many other characters. So far, keeping hte blue ball of death out of your personal space is the primary way to play against him.

2. Sethlon in Febuary (the dates of your recordings) was, I would argue, not as good as Wizzrobe was at Zenith. Maybe your arguments are still right, and everyone was simply being rocked by stuff within Sethlon's tool set. But the **** Wizzrobe was doing seemed pretty hard to read, yet alone react to. It seemed like Hbox had to guess a lot to take games off of him.

I don't really fall into either camp, but I lean towards saying "even if people figured out how to play against him, Sonic would still be the top character of PM in his current form".

1. I think link is really bad at dealing with pressure actually and if you notice in the videos that's not how I play against him. I think what helped me most was my vertical game(Sonic couldn't do much to me under or above me, so I tried to stay there), and knowing when to shield and when to spotdodge combined with knowing how to DI his moves kept me out of a lot of dumb situations.

2. It's hard to argue, but sethlon has won every single tournament he's entered with sonic, and travels to play good PM players who also have experience against sonic and beat them as well. He's also beaten people Wizzrobe has lost to...I mean they have to be close in skill if sethlon isn't better than him period imo. There is no way to tell really since Sethlon dropped sonic though, but both of them are top pm players for sure and I don't think it's fair to say that sethlon isn't as good as wizzrobe when he pretty much has destroyed every person he's played in tournament lol.

 

[Wizzrobe]

1. I think link is really bad at dealing with pressure actually and if you notice in the videos that's not how I play against him. I think what helped me most was my vertical game(Sonic couldn't do much to me under or above me, so I tried to stay there), and knowing when to shield and when to spotdodge combined with knowing how to DI his moves kept me out of a lot of dumb situations.

2. It's hard to argue, but sethlon has won every single tournament he's entered with sonic, and travels to play good PM players who also have experience against sonic and beat them as well. He's also beaten people Wizzrobe has lost to...I mean they have to be close in skill if sethlon isn't better than him period imo. There is no way to tell really since Sethlon dropped sonic though, but both of them are top pm players for sure and I don't think it's fair to say that sethlon isn't as good as wizzrobe when he pretty much has destroyed every person he's played in tournament lol.

Wont let me post on your smashboards acc wall

 

[Hylian]

Turns out Wizzrobe is coming to my city in the first week of july so I get to play him and hopefully record some videos for you guys . Should be fun.

 

[trash?]

Last tier list I had involved sonic being #4, with the only characters above him being Shiek, Fox and Falco. He was considered pretty damned amazing as is, and now that wizzrobe (and, to an extent from the commentary, hungrybox) made it a general idea that Sonic goes well against fastfallers--the kind that happen to be above him in the tier list, mind--there's a very, very good chance he's going up in the rankings.

Let's be real here, sonic was getting changed by next update, top tier or not. His design's always been iffy enough to justify it.

 

[SpiderMad]

Well yeah, the goal of the changes/this character spotlight was never accomplished lol.
http://www.smashmods.com/forum/thread-5884.html
I think "To help compensate the Side B changes, some of 2.1 Side B’s properties are now on Down B. " sums it up.

 

[CyberZixx]

Seeing how good Sonic does against spacies makes me thing he may be the best in the game. I doubt it is as free if you know the match up but it looks like a losing match up for them, probably their worst.

 

[Deleted member]

real talk, is your name maxwell? and do you have a mouse?

because my name is max, and i have a pet mouse named curry.

that'd be real as **** if you had the same ****.

 

[Max?]

My names Maxwell

 

[SpiderMad]

And my cousin owned mice. They were ****ing ******** and bit my fingers

 

[B.W.]

I love mice. Favorite animal (though not favorite pet).

Umbreon I demand pictures of said mouse.

Except not on this thread. Cause we're already off topic as ****.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Ganondorf as the worst character in the game

Discuss.

 

[SinisterB]

hard counter to Sonic

next

 

[Spiffykins]

Ganondorf's side b would like to have a word with you.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Pew pew pew

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

Alright cool, I was waiting for something like Zenith to pop up. Tier List Round 2, LET'S GO.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1XBzv_Q5WpTrchiNXC7hlXBGDv_gBc9JSbvd1ALouADQ/closedform

Usual deal, I'll stop accepting responses when there's a good enough number to get a nice list out of.

e: God damn, that last page is shameful. If any of you ever wonder why you're never going to get laid, question why you're so defensive over how creepy you are.

When will this be evaluated and where can i find round 1? :D

 

[trash?]

You can view the last tier list here. (there was a "day one" results before this that didn't mean much, dw about it)

I'll update this one as soon as either there's a good enough amount, or by the end of the month, whichever comes first.

 

[Burnsy]

Hylian I think you skipped over my post, I asked you a question and hoped you would respond. Its at the bottom of the last page.

 

[Hylian]

Overrated? By a vocal minority you mean? What good Lucas users have you played?

I'd like to hear what makes Lucas overrated to you, although I agree Ness is underrated.

I've played Oracle and Vro's lucas's, and I also play lucas. I don't really understand if you agree or disagree with me from your post lol. I hear people talk about lucas's potential all the time, I don't remember all of them it's usually in streams/random posts on the boards, I just don't think that potential is enough to overcome his massive weaknesses.

 

[Burnsy]

I don't see many players overrating Lucas personally, except maybe by a few in my own local scene due to a few strong Lucas players here. With that said, as much as we understand about Lucas, we all accept that even as mains of the character we could be playing much, much more optimally (including Calabrel) and agree that the character does have a lot of untapped potential and ways of managing his weaknesses.

As an example, I am assuming that one of the weaknesses which you speak of include his recovery, but there are a number of tether-related recovery related tricks that are still not known by even some if the most well known Lucas mains (hopefully that soon will change, I explained it to Calabrel and WGS). What started as a theory of mine I have proven to be useful and reliable in real matches against good edgeguarding opponents. It just required a bit of creativity to figure out and it has saved my ass hundreds of times since then.

 

[Hylian]

I don't see many players overrating Lucas personally, except maybe by a few in my own local scene due to a few strong Lucas players here. With that said, as much as we understand about Lucas, we all accept that even as mains of the character we could be playing much, much more optimally (including Calabrel) and agree that the character does have a lot of untapped potential and ways of managing his weaknesses.

As an example, I am assuming that one of the weaknesses which you speak of include his recovery, but there are a number of tether-related recovery related tricks that are still not known by even some if the most well known Lucas mains (hopefully that soon will change, I explained it to Calabrel and WGS). What started as a theory of mine I have proven to be useful and reliable in real matches against good edgeguarding opponents. It just required a bit of creativity to figure out and it has saved my *** hundreds of times since then.

Still not sure what you are saying lol. You are saying you don't think people overrate lucas and in the same breath saying you think lucas is a good character? I missing something lol. I personally think lucas is one of the worst characters in the game, so I think people overrate him. I don't really try to argue or convince people of this because most would never agree with me.

 

[GunBlaze]

I don't really try to argue or convince people of this because most would never agree with me.

Wise move. I differ, however, for he is one of the best.

 

[Burnsy]

On average, I'd say more people underrate him than overrate. I think that in the current metagame, he is a between an average to above average character when played by his most talented mains. The point I was trying to make was that even his most talented mains recognize that the character seems to have a lot of potential to improve from his current position in the metagame. That is why when people say "Lucas is one of the best characters", I neither agree nor disagree, because to me that depends on the extent of that untapped potential.

 

[Kink-Link5]

What are Lucas's apparently super massive weaknesses that they make him a contender for the worst character in the game?

His moves are extremely fast for their range, and fair in particular is one of the moves most capable of beating out nearly any other due to its combination speed and disjoint. There could be any number of explanations as to why, Hylian, you're seeing the character as easy to abuse. Anything from the character you're using happening to have a strong matchup against him to the Lucas's in your area's playstyles.


Another question in the meantime: Which sonic is most stupid sonic: Sethlon or Wizzrobe? Sethlon is hardly one to abuse his specials while Wizzrobe goes to town with them at any opportunity.

 

[Hylian]

What are Lucas's apparently super massive weaknesses that they make him a contender for the worst character in the game?

His moves are extremely fast for their range, and fair in particular is one of the moves most capable of beating out nearly any other due to its combination speed and disjoint. There could be any number of explanations as to why, Hylian, you're seeing the character as easy to abuse. Anything from the character you're using happening to have a strong matchup against him to the Lucas's in your area's playstyles.


Another question in the meantime: Which sonic is most stupid sonic: Sethlon or Wizzrobe? Sethlon is hardly one to abuse his specials while Wizzrobe goes to town with them at any opportunity.

I really don't want to explain anything about lucas for certain reasons lol. Like I said, just my personal opinion. I will say though, I play almost every character in the game and I don't think it has anything to do with me maining link, as I think Link destroys Lucas heh. Lucas is one of my best characters as well and that's what I base my opinion on. I will also say I think Lucas is one of the most fun characters in the game and I love his design.

No comment on the sonic question.

 

[Minor Pandemic]

I really don't want to explain anything about lucas for certain reasons lol.

Certain reasons. Back Roomer.

Pichu confirmed for 3.0

 

[Kink-Link5]

You mean I won't have to bare with Pikachu's janky 45 degree turns and can finally up-B in the same direction twice again?

 

[BTmoney]

I think ness is the worst character in the game currently.

 

[Ripple]

nah, its squirtle

 

[B.W.]

It's still funny to me that people expected Squirtle to be something completely crazy and broken.

 

[SpiderMad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ksd6XaLWlNM#t=62s
Re-awaken Frenulum, the squad needs you