9Kplus1
Smash Master
Yeah Ness is definitely top 5 material
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
Ryan-K
Smash Master
fox is a contender for #1 because he can deal with any situation and pretty much has free reign to do what he wants. Plus the PM stagelist gives him a million and one counterpicks to outcamp pretty much anyone in the game
Aenglaan
Smash Apprentice
I understand that Ness is largely considered by everyone to be one of the weakest characters in the game, but last on the tier list? No way. I personally find Luigi to be far worse than Ness. Ness can actually combo, whereas Luigi is far too floaty to combo well. Sure, Luigi does far more damage than the majority of Ness' moves, but that's all he has over him (aside from a recovery, that is).
No bro, the stage list is totally against them. Look at Skyworld: apparently Spacies go there to die young.
Ness and Luigi have a tendency to knock people away after 2-3 hits. The exception is fast fallers obv because they have plenty of easy vertical juggles. You could also argue that Luigi has a more flexible ground game and that he has an easier time landing a kill move. Basically, it doesn't seem very obvious that Luigi is way worse.
Now what looks WEIRD is Luigi above Captain Falcon. Like wat Kink?
Johnknight1
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I gotta agree on Luigi > Captain Falcon. However, even though I think Ness has better offense that Luigi, Ness' terrible recovery easily holds him back from being worse than Luigi.
Of course, all of that is assuming the "potential for improvement" I see from the top characters is actually there, which is no guarantee. And of course all of that can change when the next version of the game comes out (which probably won't be for a while considering how much of a giant leap forward this version is).
I think when all is said and done that once people get good with characters like Fox, we'll find various characters are better. And honestly, from what I've seen, Sheik, Jigglypuff, Peach, and Wolf could have top tier potential, as well as Falco. I'd also have to say Diddy Kong might end up being a dark horse for said spot.
Of course, all of that is assuming the "potential for improvement" I see from the top characters is actually there, which is no guarantee. And of course all of that can change when the next version of the game comes out (which probably won't be for a while considering how much of a giant leap forward this version is).
Oro?!
Smash Hero
Puff will not be top 10 guaranteed.
Ryan-K
Smash Master
You don't understand how much Kink loathes Falcon. "Sit there and DD/Nair around til they are dumb enough to get hit", and apparently Luigi has a better plan than Falcon for winning his MU's.
Total sarcasm about the stage. Idr when, but that stage was touted by a few people as quite bad for Spacies.
Total sarcasm about the stage. Idr when, but that stage was touted by a few people as quite bad for Spacies.
Vashimus
Smash Master
The PMBR is making sure that happens.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Good, let her drop down the tier list like a lead balloon
Oro?!
Smash Hero
No Puff won't be top 10 because melee. She has too many hard matchups between buffed characters and brawl characters that are good.
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I don't understand where Peach got better than Marth. I could write books on Marth, and I will I guess if I need to, so I'd like to hear it
:]
:]
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Marth gets pretty much blown up by everybody lol.
Falcon's recovery is sooooo baaaaaad.
Youngster Joey
Smash Journeyman
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why is sonic not up for discussion? wizzrobe just bodied zenith with sonic. i've been keeping this to myself but i always thought sonic was the new best character. im not gonna straight up give him the top spot but he definitely deserves top 10 at the very least. he runs circles around the whole cast when he's played to his full potential. sure he'll have some bad mu's but im sure everyone will get a bad mu eventually
B.W.
Smash Champion
Marth gets blown up by everybody? This is news to me.
Scythe
Smash Master
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that was a iffy matchup in melee anyway
D
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Guest
You're not alone. Almost everybody has issues with 2.5 Sonic.
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Sonic is silly.
If you want to give Marth trouble you have to have some of or all of these traits, or a very unbalanced amount of one: better ground control (dash dance, options out of dash forward and WD forward, projectile), more range and or disjoint, horizontal aerial movement, the ability to remove stage from him, juggle him, or consistent and disproportionally hard punishments on stupid-Marth stuff (Sheik vs. Marth. DK in PM Almost has this imo).
As for everything else, I don't think DK does a good enough job for it to be considered a bad MU for Marth.
He juggles him pretty well but a lot of characters do. I don't see how DK can safely and frequently initiate this advantage over him.
I'm not exactly a fan of Sethlon's Marth either and I'm not saying that blindly. Nothing against him since he's an excellent player in terms of talent but I've been brain washed by the Melee Marth Boards and Umbreon to the point where everyone's Marth looks stupid except for Dr. PPs because I just look at them and see general play style errors (nair in general, converting from neutral with fsmash or decision making that doesn't exactly agree with what I was taught or have conceptualized) and feel like options are being left on the table.
I think 98% of players play the character incorrectly and it's even worse in PM since some Marth's do not come from Melee backgrounds (don't think of this as lol-if-it's-not-melee-it's-not-right, that has nothing to do with this) and they don't read up on all the delicious Melee Marth Board theory. People just kind of do what they want which is fine but I think it misrepresents the character. (Honestly if you haven't read Umbreon's, Cactuar's, and TheCrimsonBlur's Marth stuff you are missing out)
This is my opinion watching little PM DK vs Marth but being pretty well versed in melee-Marth and having played melee-Marth vs DK. I don't feel DK changed enough, yes he's buffed but what did he get to stop Marth?
After watching Eli vs PP it cetainly isn't free but I don't see Marth getiting exploited. I personally do not think PP played especially well but how many DK's has he seen and how many were that good? I am willing to bet Eli is/was better at that MU than PP is since he's the oddity (and he's the PM player).
Not to mention Marth does not need to rely on gimping since he can win based on attrition alone against the characters he can prevent from landing.
As far as percentile goes, Marth is just as good as he was in melee in PM. Maybe minutely worse. There are a few characters, not more than a handful, (Fox, Falco, Sonic, maybe Pitt) that are better by design and then there are a few that just give him a stupidly hard time and have to play less perfect than he does to beat him (Sheik and to a much lesser extent Puff maybe 1 more) and then there is everyone else that Marth either beats or does fine against.
I also have more faith in the character than Umbreon although he shaped my thinking of the character.
Any, good, footage? I personally believe Marth is solid enough in design to not get blown up by a lot of characters. If you're not a better designed character (Falco, Sonic, Fox) or Sheik then I don't see major issues.
If you want to give Marth trouble you have to have some of or all of these traits, or a very unbalanced amount of one: better ground control (dash dance, options out of dash forward and WD forward, projectile), more range and or disjoint, horizontal aerial movement, the ability to remove stage from him, juggle him, or consistent and disproportionally hard punishments on stupid-Marth stuff (Sheik vs. Marth. DK in PM Almost has this imo).
As for everything else, I don't think DK does a good enough job for it to be considered a bad MU for Marth.
He juggles him pretty well but a lot of characters do. I don't see how DK can safely and frequently initiate this advantage over him.
I'm not exactly a fan of Sethlon's Marth either and I'm not saying that blindly. Nothing against him since he's an excellent player in terms of talent but I've been brain washed by the Melee Marth Boards and Umbreon to the point where everyone's Marth looks stupid except for Dr. PPs because I just look at them and see general play style errors (nair in general, converting from neutral with fsmash or decision making that doesn't exactly agree with what I was taught or have conceptualized) and feel like options are being left on the table.
I think 98% of players play the character incorrectly and it's even worse in PM since some Marth's do not come from Melee backgrounds (don't think of this as lol-if-it's-not-melee-it's-not-right, that has nothing to do with this) and they don't read up on all the delicious Melee Marth Board theory. People just kind of do what they want which is fine but I think it misrepresents the character. (Honestly if you haven't read Umbreon's, Cactuar's, and TheCrimsonBlur's Marth stuff you are missing out)
This is my opinion watching little PM DK vs Marth but being pretty well versed in melee-Marth and having played melee-Marth vs DK. I don't feel DK changed enough, yes he's buffed but what did he get to stop Marth?
After watching Eli vs PP it cetainly isn't free but I don't see Marth getiting exploited. I personally do not think PP played especially well but how many DK's has he seen and how many were that good? I am willing to bet Eli is/was better at that MU than PP is since he's the oddity (and he's the PM player).
Not to mention Marth does not need to rely on gimping since he can win based on attrition alone against the characters he can prevent from landing.
As far as percentile goes, Marth is just as good as he was in melee in PM. Maybe minutely worse. There are a few characters, not more than a handful, (Fox, Falco, Sonic, maybe Pitt) that are better by design and then there are a few that just give him a stupidly hard time and have to play less perfect than he does to beat him (Sheik and to a much lesser extent Puff maybe 1 more) and then there is everyone else that Marth either beats or does fine against.
I also have more faith in the character than Umbreon although he shaped my thinking of the character.
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You got ninja'd, and that's where I stopped agreeing (100%) with Umbreon although I agree with him on a lot of things.
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dunno about the MU of dk vs marth. probably evenish. all but like 3 marths are bad so it's hard to tell. i have never lost to a marth in this game.
i don't want to talk about sonic because he isn't a smash character.
i don't want to talk about sonic because he isn't a smash character.
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Marth does a good job of keeping DK out, but once he gets in a decent-good DK will deal heavy damage.
Also, sonic is stupid.
Also, sonic is stupid.
Uh...what?
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sethlon tho...
CyberZixx
Smash Lord
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I was thinking of Dr. PP, PPU and M2k as good Marths. None of which are serious about Project M. PPU I have never seen play it in fact and he is the most dedicated Marth player in melee now. My dedicated I mean uses him in most matches.
I don't think M2K has ever played marth in PM and I've also never seen PPU play PM. Those certainly weren't the people SB was referring to I'm pretty sure at least aside from PP lol.
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He does rarely just for the sake of taking worse players's money
CyberZixx
Smash Lord
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCwJ5dwNyU0 He uses Marth the first match in that set.
D
Deleted member
Guest
dk vs marth seems even ish to me. maybe slight dk favor.
i haven't seen jason's marth in person yet but kevin's marth isn't that great in PM for what his skill level would suggest.
i haven't seen jason's marth in person yet but kevin's marth isn't that great in PM for what his skill level would suggest.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Where do you feel the DK:Falco matchup is Mow?
D
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Guest
i have no opinion on it. i can speak comfortably on sheik/marth since i'm excellent at those characters, but that's about it.
you guys seriously overrate marth though.
you guys seriously overrate marth though.
What do you guys think the most overrated and underrated characters are? I would say Lucas is the most overrated while Ness is the most underrated...ironically enough.
SpiderMad
Smash Master
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Really? What
9Kplus1
Smash Master
I agree with user Ripple
you people need to appreciate the D(DD) more
you people need to appreciate the D(DD) more