Tier List Speculation

[Kink-Link5]

So are bairing, d-tilting, fairing and nairing.

Hell, her jab can shield poke littlins

 

[leelue]

Sheik is considered good because you just got forward tilted

 

[Jolteon]

I remember KK once saying that Sheik's shield strings should typically not exceed 3 hits. I think it's good advice.

 

[Plum]

Yeah, she's not a character that gets up in your face and pressures you like a spacie.
If you are sitting in your shield too long, then she will properly punish you for your mistake of letting your shield get too low.
That's what Sheik does. She exploits whatever it is you are doing and punishes it very heavily.
She has crappy approach, and can't sit there smacking your shield all day, but she stuffs approaches for days and man when she touches you once it's like half your stock...
tu tu

 

[Oracle]

Theory crafting is not assuming frame perfection
Theory crafting is not wistful ignorance of factors
Theory crafting does not make any claims to say for certain that a character will win a tournament or beat a character

All theory crafting means is examining the game beyond the physical game and looking at all the tools and all the uses of those tools in any given situation. It is an amazing tool, because it is testable, it is provable, and it adds to the pool of knowledge that is the metagame.

"When they realized they were in a desert, they built a religion to worship thirstiness"

 

[Vashimus]

I'm not quite familiar with that phrase.

 

[CyberZixx]

Me either but I like it.

 

[The_NZA]

please contextualize that to this conversation. I'm intrigued.

 

[BlackDr.Mario]

On stage, Ness is great! If I had to point out flaws, he wouldnt do well to a decent laser game and Up B easily stoppable from a spike. Also his combos are limited however they all build damage quickly. He could be High Tier, you just have to be good.

 

[Shadocat]

If he wasnt so floaty I'd main him.

 

[The_NZA]

If he wasnt so floaty I'd main him.

I mean...I wouldn't call him floaty. He's pretty medium weight and while his approaches are very aerial, he's not in the air for that long at any time. He really just skips off the ground quickly like a pebble across a river.

 

[geno]

Just use DJC to take care of that floatiness if it's giving you an issue. Ness is pretty great in 2.5 but I still feel that he's pretty inferior to Lucas. I mained him in 2.1, but we drifted apart in 2.5b

 

[MVP]

Lucas is more agile than ness, and he is faster overall. But ness has some great tools that Lucas doens't have. For example, i feel Ness has a better edge guard because of the yoyo.

But the only thing for me that puts lucas better than ness IMO is his recovery. Lucas has a teather and his up-b is better

 

[The_NZA]

Lucas is more agile than ness, and he is faster overall. But ness has some great tools that Lucas doens't have. For example, i feel Ness has a better edge guard because of the yoyo.

But the only thing for me that puts lucas better than ness IMO is his recovery. Lucas has a teather and his up-b is better

I think I disagree with everything you just said. Yoyos are not even close to integral to ness's edge game, and the distance of Ness's upb/dj make it superior to lucas's upb for sure, and possibly better than his whole recovery.

 

[MVP]

I think I disagree with everything you just said. Yoyos are not even close to integral to ness's edge game, and the distance of Ness's upb/dj make it superior to lucas's upb for sure, and possibly better than his whole recovery.

Have you seen a good Ness main? They use the yoyo to trip up people recoveries and so on. They're fantastic for mindgames and edge-guarding.

The reason why i think Lucas' recovery is better is because its MUCH safer than ness' plus Lucas has a teather. It's easy to gimp ness (EDIT: with some characters) while Lucas makes you think twice.

I didn't say his was significantly better, only slightly better. Cause you're right Ness' is much larger and covers a farther distance

 

[Ace55]

They're fantastic for mindgames

Sign of a good move right there.

 

[MVP]

Sign of a good move right there.

Sign of a good thread is tier list speculation for a game that's not fully developed. It honestly needs to be changed to a MU thread because its more accurate for this stage of development

 

[The_NZA]

That's kind of a non sequiter. Most moves if good should have a "mind game" component. For instance, cfalcon's dair is a good "mind game" move in the sense that it punishes spot dodges. But you wouldn't think of it as that because it isn't pidgeonholed into the role of only working if your opponent makes an error. Ness's Yoyo's are by far some of his worst options and their function is for mind games––if someone thinks you are going to jump out at them, try a yoyo instead. Still doesn't make it a great move.

 

[MVP]

That's kind of a non sequiter. Most moves if good should have a "mind game" component. For instance, cfalcon's dair is a good "mind game" move in the sense that it punishes spot dodges. But you wouldn't think of it as that because it isn't pidgeonholed into the role of only working if your opponent makes an error. Ness's Yoyo's are by far some of his worst options and their function is for mind games––if someone thinks you are going to jump out at them, try a yoyo instead. Still doesn't make it a great move.

The reason why i said its good for mindgames, is because if your opponent is trying to recover and you throw a yoyo out on the ledge, It influences their decision to recover on-stage instead of on the ledge.

Mindgames are defined as:A series of deliberate actions or responses planned for psychological effect on another

My whole point of the yoyo comments is to show how EVERY MOVE has its place and can be used. A great player knows this and will use every tool in his or her arsenal to win. People need to be open minded to new things and techniques. That's how meta-game is developed

A great example of this is when smash was first released, everyone thought rest was the worst move in the game. Now its debatingly the best. When melee came out, everyone thought falcon couldn't be played or win in tournys. Then Isai came

IMO i think yoyo is a great move in certain situations.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Sign of a good thread is tier list speculation for a game that's not fully developed. It honestly needs to be changed to a MU thread because its more accurate for this stage of development

MU speculation is just as poor in early stages as tier list speculation, just more localised to those specific theorycraft vs boneslogic cases.

 

[MVP]

MU speculation is just as poor in early stages as tier list speculation, just more localised to those specific theorycraft vs boneslogic cases.

agreed completely, but its better to have "this character is better vs this character" than "this character is better than all or most characters"

same thing as what you said basically

 

[Oro?!]

There are exceptions to the rule. I'm sure I could write novels on Fox/Bowser/Wolf vs ZSS. That's all I really play and I consider the people I play against to not be at a low level or have matchup unfamiliarity to where I can get away with dumb things. If you are talking on a global basis then it's basically useless at this point. Even at the highest levels I doubt both let's say Chillin and SW share the same views or have had similar experiences as Wolf.

Nothing I write would be based on theorycrafting but experience. I would never write about Pit for instance, because I hardly touch him and have never played a good one.

 

[Professor Pro]

I was going to write something similar to what Oro, but Oro said it well.
There's no way MU speculation which is experienced based (or at least should be, other wise your opinions are noob based) is anywhere near the level of Tier List speculation which is claiming knowledge for the MU's of the whole cast.

 

[Ryan-K]

fox/snake is an incredibly stupid team

 

[Professor Pro]

fox/snake is an incredibly stupid team

LOL I can't lie, it is a really good team, having C4's stuck on people and Fox's Upwards killing potential is just something I wish to call 'Beautiful'

 

[Bryonato]

IMO Snake's C4 is only good in teams.

 

[Professor Pro]

IMO Snake's C4 is only good in teams.

LOL I agree, it becomes useless once it steps into the realm of singles

 

[Kink-Link5]

Snake can't even combo into it after a throw I mean come on.

 

[Juushichi]

More importantly, Snake C4 plus a character that is faster and can combo into grab (shine WD Grab, shinegrab, DD grab) and throw them into their own stupid setup (uthrow uair) or if the % is high enough, just uthrow is a little more important than usmash, I think. But I understand the pressure part of it.

 

[Ryan-K]

snake can chaingrab with uthrow into c4 and then whenever fox lands a stray hit which usually goes into uair or usmash he allows a kill at dumb percents

 

[gaarasgord]

These kind of posts just make me think this thread is filled with a bunch of inexperienced people expressing a sense of certainty in fields which they aren't even good in or know enough about to be speaking on in the first place lol.

Like before when I tried to tell someone about a MU not being that bad he said (paraphrasing) 'I don't need to play the MU, I just need to look at their moves' - Professor Theory Crafting.

That's why the majority of my smash spent time goes towards getting better, rather than waiting for others to get better to then base my opinion off, and I reserve judgement on characters I don't have a very good solid understanding on, because then I don't end up saying things which are wrong.

P.S. Why is Snake 15th on that list, he is garbage, please put him 28th

Well let me just say I'm a scrub but I agree with what your saying.... Honestly screw the match up. I think the point of the match up is to try to get to know a little bit about how your opponent is going to play like a couple of seconds before the match and when the match is playing (can I get chain grabbed, how to recover and get back on stage etc...) but honestly it sounds like people are thinking that bottom tier has no chance which is not true because when I see project m one of the goals it looks like they have is trying to have a balanced game which to me sounds like eliminating tiers or at least downplaying their role. But overall I dont like people should look to much into them as they are other than playing strategies... ps Pro the way you play snake is dirty and after watching I think snake should be moved up in the tier not that it matters

 

[Kink-Link5]

[collapse=Bunni's 2.5b list version 2.5][collapse=A Class]
"Top Tier"
1. Fox
2. Zelda/Sheik (But mostly Sheik)
3. Falco
4. Sonic


"Very High Tier"
5. Jigglypuff
6. Pit
7. Peach +1
8. Wolf -1
9. Mario
10. Diddy Kong +1
[/collapse]

[collapse=B Class]
"High Tier"
11. Snake -1
12. Unviable Suit Samus +1
13. Wario +1
14. Marth +1
15. Link +1
16. Charizard -4
17. Lucas
18. R.O.B. +3
19. Pikachu +1
20. Donkey Kong +2
21. Ike -2
22. Lucario -2
[/collapse]

[collapse=C Class]
"Middle Tier"
23. Toon Link
24. Bowser
25. Luigi +1
26. King DeDeDe -1
27. Captain Falcon
28. Zelda
29. Ivysaur
30. Mr. Game and Watch +1
31. Ganondorf -1
32. Squirtle
33. Ness[/collapse]

 

[Spiffykins]

Call it whatever you want, the low end of the list is still low tier.

 

[Bryonato]

LOL Ness is last? I'm so confused

 

[Kink-Link5]

Would you prefer if Ganondorf was last

Or any character at all

 

[Ripple]

people this is a new game. Just because Fox was super good in melee doesn't mean it'll be the same in this because of the new characters or veteran character buffs or even because of the subtle difference in collision detection. likewise, just because an melee character has received only buffs to PM doesn't mean that they are better overall.

Ness could be the worst, Fox could be mid tier. No one knows.... it hasn't been out long enough yet

 

[Bryonato]

Would you prefer if Ganondorf was last

Or any character at all

ZSS, obv

 

[Deleted member]

Fox could be mid tier. No one knows.... it hasn't been out long enough yet

Yeah...he might not always be #1, I'll give you that, but the chances of Fox falling out of top tier are incredibly slim. Even if he did for some bizarre reason, I can guarantee you he wouldn't fall below high tier.

 

[Johnknight1]

Fox is mostly #1 because he's the most familiar character. I don't think he's actually the best 2.5, but he's still one of the top characters (until other characters make huge developments I suppose and of course the Fox community develops things to counter said developments and we see how it works and adds up, of course).

And yeah, Ness... that recovery kills him. If he had Lucas' options with recovery, he wouldn't be in the bottom tier discussion at all, instead of always in it.

 

[DMG]

lalala]

Marth is def better than Wario and why Falcon so low? Poopsicle

people this is a new game. Just because Fox was super good in melee doesn't mean it'll be the same in this because of the new characters or veteran character buffs or even because of the subtle difference in collision detection. likewise, just because an melee character has received only buffs to PM doesn't mean that they are better overall.

Ness could be the worst, Fox could be mid tier. No one knows.... it hasn't been out long enough yet

Fox could be mid tier, if the next patch of P:M nerfed his shine and if half the cast was buffed up and if MK Samus Yoshi were introduced and were counters to Fox.

Fox is mostly #1 because he's the most familiar character. I don't think he's actually the best 2.5, but he's still one of the top characters (until other characters make huge developments I suppose and of course the Fox community develops things to counter said developments and we see how it works and adds up, of course).

And yeah, Ness... that recovery kills him. If he had Lucas' options with recovery, he wouldn't be in the bottom tier discussion at all, instead of always in it.

Ok so Fox isn't #1. Say Falco isn't either, just to cover the bases. Who's the best character in P:M then? You can't just say "Well Fox isn't that great, SURELY someone is better than him" and then sit there in vague ville without a name lol. You don't make a good case for why Fox isn't the best, if the reasoning is basically that it's possible for someone who was buffed or introduced to somehow be better, so therefore he absolutely is not the best. Toss out something, like hey I think Bowser can compete or hey Pit/Sonic/whoever can do it.