Tier List Speculation

[Burnsy]

You actually raise a pretty good point. That's why I included the "Tournament Result's" section. Falco was actually quite a bit lower on this list before I added it, so I thought "why is that?" and decided that I should add that section to raise him a bit. It did well for other characters too.

It would probably be a good idea to have a "Matchups" section as well. However, matchups aren't know very well right now, so I don't think that would be a good idea right now, but maybe it would work well as the game progresses.

"My list didn't make sense to me given the variables I selected arbitrarily, so I introduced another that would confirm my bias".

"I don't know match-ups, but am perfectly comfortable rating these characters across 8 or so dimensions"

I'm interested to see how you ranked these characters in your categories before totaling them up.

 

[Blondie.]

"My list didn't make sense to me given the variables I selected arbitrarily, so I introduced another that would confirm my bias".

"I don't know match-ups, but am perfectly comfortable rating these characters across 8 or so dimensions"

I'm interested to see how you ranked these characters in your categories before totaling them up.

LOL! I don't know how many times I have to say, I'm no expert on every character. How do you expect me to know every single mathcup in the game?? There are 1089 matchups and I only main two characters. I did this to see how accurate it was going to be and it was pretty good. I think adopting a system like this after some refinement could lead to a very accurate tier list that could show where certain characters need improvement.

I didn't change ANY values after I added them up, except for introducing the tournament results section. That's a good thing right? One person is telling me that my list is inaccurate because it's in a vacuum and now you're telling me it's inaccurate because I have bias.

Unfortunately, everyone just likes complaining about something new rather than seeing that it has potential and trying to help me improve my system.

Also, I did just recently change Peach after getting input from a friend who secondaries Peach, but that's only because I really did not feel comfortable rating her because of my poor knowledge of her.

 

[Professor Pro]

Edit: What is so bad about Snake? I don't know much about the character at all.

Can't kill, worst approach game, debatably worst recovery, gets destroyed by anyone who camps.

 

[trash?]

I feel like I'm going to ruin the joke if I say anything about prof.

 

[Burnsy]

I didn't change ANY values after I added them up, except for introducing the tournament results section. That's a good thing right?

That isn't the point. The point is that your one man ranking system is just as vulnerable to bias as someone who straight up ranks characters based on their perception of where they should be, whether or not you argue that you had some systematic way of doing it. You are assigning these points yourself. As an example, what is your basis for saying "hmmm, D3 gets range of 9, and fox gets a range of.... lets go with 7"?

Which leads me into the bigger problem I have with all this, which is the lack of visibility of how you ranked these characters across these categories. I get it if you don't want to take up an entire page to yourself, but maybe you can make a paste bin with this data? This is a request, not a suggestion, I hope you won't glance over it again. If the individual ratings for each "attribute" are not very accurate, then the list certainly won't be.

Besides all of that, MUs are a necessary aspect to be considered when determining how good a character is at approaching, mobility, range, comboing, etc. I agree with that the other guy said. You can't rate characters in a vacuum solely based on your knowledge of their properties and movesets.

 

[Vashimus]

How do you expect me to know every single mathcup in the game?? There are 1089 matchups and I only main two characters.

Actually, only 528 matchups, excluding mirror matches and duplicates (e.g. Peach vs. Snake and Snake vs. Peach is the same matchup).

 

[Rarik]

Which leads me into the bigger problem I have with all this, which is the lack of visibility of how you ranked these characters across these categories. I get it if you don't want to take up an entire page to yourself, but maybe you can make a paste bin with this data? This is a request, not a suggestion, I hope you won't glance over it again. If the individual ratings for each "attribute" are not very accurate, then the list certainly won't be.

He actually did provide the individual ratings of every category. Check the spoiler at the bottom of his post (only the 2nd spoilers, the first one is a dud, and the first spolier of every character is also a dud)

 

[CyberZixx]

How exactly does your weight attribute work? Fox has a lower weight score than Peach, despite his weight making him susceptible to chain grabs and combos.

 

[Vashimus]

Weight =/= falling speed. Peach is heavier than Fox even though she falls slower.

 

[Nausicaa]

Snake can't move. Everything restricting regarding 'immobility' applies to him to some extent or another. Even in recovery.

Can't kill, worst approach game, debatably worst recovery, gets destroyed by anyone who camps.

Questions for you.


For not being able to kill.
It can be difficult to get that opening that leads to a kill by his own means (approaching) but can still do a process of eliminating options in a neutral game. I don't see how this actually translates to it being 'difficult' to kill. Maybe difficult, but not in a disadvantageous way. I'll try to explain.

With enough of a defensive game, and the way he CAN get kills when the opportunity DOES come, it may take a while longer, but he doesn't exactly suffer from this, as he can't really 'fall behind' in a stock when he needs to get that kill. He can almost just stall games without putting himself in danger, and make that chance come with time. A fresh stock for an opponent won't accomplish much if he doesn't let them, so his slow-coming (but eventual) kill doesn't actually factor as a bad thing. It still comes when he needs.

This has been my experience anyway. Long stocks where I don't seem to be accomplishing anything, but the opponent can't do much to me. Delay of stock-taking, but not at a lost cause.
Hope that made sense.
I've actually gravitated to combos into F-Smash are low-mid% (like 30-60%) to get good positional advantage and someone off-stage. It forces them to a limited space early on, and this seems to be where Snake's immobility as a weakness can be nullified almost entirely for the given stocks, and generates a lot more of these opportunities (or chances for that) that would otherwise take a longer process to get to.


Dealing with camping.
Do you mean the way a Falcon/Marth/Fox DD camps, or actual projectile camping?
Maybe abuse Side-B > get hit by projectile > approach? I don't see how he can have projectile camping issues with this little tool. It's a great gap-closer if anyone tries a projectile, or to hold space with anything that has even a moment of delay that you can act on in anticipation.

I'd love your insight on these things, and to hear any results you get (have gotten) from trying these simple things more.

This is all from my own experience, as I'm a little out of the loop with other Snake-play. Any thoughts/concern/comments on it?
TY

ZSS has mobility out the *** and range to top it, she'll never be a character that suffers to any great extent in this game.
Down-B for kills. DO IT!

 

[Blondie.]

That isn't the point. The point is that your one man ranking system is just as vulnerable to bias as someone who straight up ranks characters based on their perception of where they should be, whether or not you argue that you had some systematic way of doing it. You are assigning these points yourself. As an example, what is your basis for saying "hmmm, D3 gets range of 9, and fox gets a range of.... lets go with 7"?

Ya, I did this all by myself and had almost no solid basis when I chose the values. I pretty much just chose what I felt was fairly accurate considering I'm only one guy. I never said this list was accurate nor the end all for tier lists. I wanted to test a system to see if it might work.

Ideally, you would have a whole bunch of people contributing to make the list more accurate. For example, I chose D3 to have a range of 7 and fox to be 4. But D3 could possibly be higher. You could take the solid range values of every character and then rate them form 1-10 based on solid mathematical evidence, rather than me guessing. But my guesses are probably fairly accurate.

Also, the multipliers were again just what I felt was important and how important it was. Maybe mobility should be an x4 and combos should be an x3, which would lower falco and raise fox. I will only know if I get input from you guys.

I said I could add a matchups section. Are you blind?

Actually, only 528 matchups, excluding mirror matches and duplicates (e.g. Peach vs. Snake and Snake vs. Peach is the same matchup).

Thanks. I just did a quick 33x33. I forgot about mirrors and duplicates.

How exactly does your weight attribute work? Fox has a lower weight score than Peach, despite his weight making him susceptible to chain grabs and combos.

Weight is just a character's ability to resist knockback. I didn't include fall speed, which is what you are talking about. I said in my explanation that that is an example of something that could be included, but I didn't due to I didn't want to spend a week making this list.

I'd love your insight on these things, and to hear any results you get (have gotten) from trying these simple things more.

I'm pretty sure he's trolling at least a little. Snake definitely doesn't have the worst recovery. Try saying that to Falco, Wolf, Squirtle, Sheik, Captain Falcon, Toon Link, Bowser, and DK. Hell he has an infinite recovery with the c4.

 

[CyberZixx]

Weight =/= falling speed. Peach is heavier than Fox even though she falls slower.

Oh shoot, really. I never knew that. #scrubmoment.

Edit: I don't know if you are looking for character value suggestions and I am hardly an expert on Marth. That said I would reduce his Approach and Kill potential by 2 point and up his zoning by 3 points. I think the falling speed attribute is important to have.

 

[Professor Pro]

Snake can't move. Everything restricting regarding 'immobility' applies to him to some extent or another. Even in recovery.



Questions for you.


For not being able to kill.
It can be difficult to get that opening that leads to a kill by his own means (approaching) but can still do a process of eliminating options in a neutral game. I don't see how this actually translates to it being 'difficult' to kill. Maybe difficult, but not in a disadvantageous way. I'll try to explain.

With enough of a defensive game, and the way he CAN get kills when the opportunity DOES come, it may take a while longer, but he doesn't exactly suffer from this, as he can't really 'fall behind' in a stock when he needs to get that kill. He can almost just stall games without putting himself in danger, and make that chance come with time. A fresh stock for an opponent won't accomplish much if he doesn't let them, so his slow-coming (but eventual) kill doesn't actually factor as a bad thing. It still comes when he needs.

This has been my experience anyway. Long stocks where I don't seem to be accomplishing anything, but the opponent can't do much to me. Delay of stock-taking, but not at a lost cause.
Hope that made sense.
I've actually gravitated to combos into F-Smash are low-mid% (like 30-60%) to get good positional advantage and someone off-stage. It forces them to a limited space early on, and this seems to be where Snake's immobility as a weakness can be nullified almost entirely for the given stocks, and generates a lot more of these opportunities (or chances for that) that would otherwise take a longer process to get to.


Dealing with camping.
Do you mean the way a Falcon/Marth/Fox DD camps, or actual projectile camping?
Maybe abuse Side-B > get hit by projectile > approach? I don't see how he can have projectile camping issues with this little tool. It's a great gap-closer if anyone tries a projectile, or to hold space with anything that has even a moment of delay that you can act on in anticipation.

I'd love your insight on these things, and to hear any results you get (have gotten) from trying these simple things more.

This is all from my own experience, as I'm a little out of the loop with other Snake-play. Any thoughts/concern/comments on it?
TY

He has the worst approach game so everything is irrelevant if you can't even get in to do any damage to your opponent, if there was any character who was made to be JV 5stock material it's Snake.

If you've managed to combo anything to F-Smash then I can say you are one of the lucky ones.

I will try what you said, but my expectations is that he will forever be bad.

I'm pretty sure he's trolling at least a little. Snake definitely doesn't have the worst recovery. Try saying that to Falco, Wolf, Squirtle, Sheik, Captain Falcon, Toon Link, Bowser, and DK. Hell he has an infinite recovery with the c4.

I'm not familiar with this term trolling to be honest, and therefore cannot clarify whether it is an act I am currently participating in.
But Snake recovery is amongst some of the most atrociousness in smash history imo, it's still debatable between him and T.Link though with who has the worst recovery.

 

[Jolteon]

Prof you're stupid, obviously TL has (by far) the worst recovery in the game. LOOK AT HOW FAR HIS UP+B GOES. Debatable my ass.

 

[Nausicaa]

Snake has issues recovering for sure. It's not the 'infinite' thing that matters so much as how vulnerable he is. The slow speed, lack of Air-Dodge, odd sweet-spot, etc are still applicable even though he 'can' recover from anywhere. If it weren't for Down-B (C4 CANCEL) > Air-Dodge, I'd feel helpless half the time I'm coming back to the stage. Recover DJ high > C4 drop (if it's not out) > Up-B > C4 Detonate Cancel > Air-Dodge is like my go-to when things have been sticky and tricks like Nade's and challenging my opponent aren't working out.

It's probably slight-trolling (maybe) but it's fairly accurate and understandable.
Maybe he's just getting me back for trolling him though, and he's actually sarcastic and my Snake is just struggling here. <_<

He has the worst approach game so everything is irrelevant if you can't even get in to do any damage to your opponent, if there was any character who was made to be JV 5stock material it's Snake.

If you've managed to combo anything to F-Smash then I can say you are one of the lucky ones.

I will try what you said, but my expectations is that he will forever be bad.




I'm not familiar with this term trolling to be honest, and therefore cannot clarify whether it is an act I am currently participating in.
But Snake recovery is amongst some of the most atrociousness in smash history imo, it's still debatable between him and T.Link though with who has the worst recovery.

Edit: Trolling is basically just another term for tricking people into not knowing that you're sarcastic on the internet.
I heard his heel spikes, can 10 people confirm? (after 3 people mention it does already) Then you respond with a serious answer confused whether I was serious or not.
= Trolling.


Combos into F-Smash at low-% is actually pretty easy. You have to sacrifice some better 'set-ups' sometimes (either damage, or Uair/tech-chase opportunities you would get otherwise)

It does decent damage, hits high (above his head disjointed it seems) and fast, so you should be able to U-Throw > F-Smash, or Dtilt/Utilt > F-Smash, or Up-B > FF Nair > F-Smash.All around that lower to mid % ranges on basically anyone. Even just tech-chasing with Dash > F-Smash works.
It will reliably hit opponents off-stage a significant distance at low %. Similar to the set knock-back throws, but damaging and out of combos. Better than a lot of other alternatives for Snake specifically, as the positional advantage means more to him that straight damage or vortex-like options he'll ever provide. (because of the whole 'slow as balls' thing... and positioning them off-stage means you don't have too much room you need to control)

True, Snake is bound to be 'crushed' more than a lot of characters on a more universal basis, but I only think this will work to a point. He has enough tools to make up for poor mobility (whether it's the Side-B thing, or Nades, or a DD Grab / Approach with Shield > Up-B or retreat) to keep a presence in any match-up.

Again, it kind of goes to what I was saying, and this might just be as far as I can see, but...
Snake can avoid anything from happening to him. This translates to longer games where almost no risks are taken, (as no player has a good risk vs reward factor from trying anything 'creative and fancy') and neither Snake NOR his opponent will be able to do that 'offense' you're talking about.
Does that make sense?

Too risky for Snake to even TRY doing damage to the opponent, too risky for the opponent to TRY doing damage to Snake. Leads to a stale-mate of tricks, and if Snake can play this way (Which I've so far found do-able, and think it's going to be do-able long-term) this is where Snake can take the upper hand naturally.

The Side-B thing has won me countless matches against Pit's, Lucas's, Ivy's, and essentially every projectile-enjoying character that I've encountered with him. I strongly suggest doing it at least occasionally. They're at risk shooting projectiles (just like anything against Snake, there's a way to make it risky for them), and it'll make them stop if their smart, or try doing something like faking it (Pit likes to fake one and shoot it up, then approach after), which isn't a big deal if you can play that accordingly too (be at the right distance/cancel it/you have lots of time to Up-B or Nade or Shield).

Thoughts on that, if any different?

 

[Burnsy]

He actually did provide the individual ratings of every category. Check the spoiler at the bottom of his post (only the 2nd spoilers, the first one is a dud, and the first spolier of every character is also a dud)

Found where the totals are, thanks. I still don't think a list that virtually says that DK, Link and Ike have equivalent range is better than a list that at least attempts takes into account how Ike does against all the different characters in the game

Edit: you said you might add a matchup category. So let me put it this way. I think that any tier list that has a chance of being accurate should be based solely on matchups, and a proper matchup chart should be voted on only by players who have proven to be knowledgeable on the match ups they are voting on.

 

[Professor Pro]

Snake has issues recovering for sure. It's not the 'infinite' thing that matters so much as how vulnerable he is. The slow speed, lack of Air-Dodge, odd sweet-spot, etc are still applicable even though he 'can' recover from anywhere. If it weren't for Down-B (C4 CANCEL) > Air-Dodge, I'd feel helpless half the time I'm coming back to the stage. Recover DJ high > C4 drop (if it's not out) > Up-B > C4 Detonate Cancel > Air-Dodge is like my go-to when things have been sticky and tricks like Nade's and challenging my opponent aren't working out.

It's probably slight-trolling (maybe) but it's fairly accurate and understandable.
Maybe he's just getting me back for trolling him though, and he's actually sarcastic and my Snake is just struggling here. <_<





Edit: Trolling is basically just another term for tricking people into not knowing that you're sarcastic on the internet.
I heard his heel spikes, can 10 people confirm? (after 3 people mention it does already) Then you respond with a serious answer confused whether I was serious or not.
= Trolling.


Combos into F-Smash at low-% is actually pretty easy. You have to sacrifice some better 'set-ups' sometimes (either damage, or Uair/tech-chase opportunities you would get otherwise)

It does decent damage, hits high (above his head disjointed it seems) and fast, so you should be able to U-Throw > F-Smash, or Dtilt/Utilt > F-Smash, or Up-B > FF Nair > F-Smash.All around that lower to mid % ranges on basically anyone. Even just tech-chasing with Dash > F-Smash works.
It will reliably hit opponents off-stage a significant distance at low %. Similar to the set knock-back throws, but damaging and out of combos. Better than a lot of other alternatives for Snake specifically, as the positional advantage means more to him that straight damage or vortex-like options he'll ever provide. (because of the whole 'slow as balls' thing... and positioning them off-stage means you don't have too much room you need to control)

True, Snake is bound to be 'crushed' more than a lot of characters on a more universal basis, but I only think this will work to a point. He has enough tools to make up for poor mobility (whether it's the Side-B thing, or Nades, or a DD Grab / Approach with Shield > Up-B or retreat) to keep a presence in any match-up.

Again, it kind of goes to what I was saying, and this might just be as far as I can see, but...
Snake can avoid anything from happening to him. This translates to longer games where almost no risks are taken, (as no player has a good risk vs reward factor from trying anything 'creative and fancy') and neither Snake NOR his opponent will be able to do that 'offense' you're talking about.
Does that make sense?

Too risky for Snake to even TRY doing damage to the opponent, too risky for the opponent to TRY doing damage to Snake. Leads to a stale-mate of tricks, and if Snake can play this way (Which I've so far found do-able, and think it's going to be do-able long-term) this is where Snake can take the upper hand naturally.

The Side-B thing has won me countless matches against Pit's, Lucas's, Ivy's, and essentially every projectile-enjoying character that I've encountered with him. I strongly suggest doing it at least occasionally. They're at risk shooting projectiles (just like anything against Snake, there's a way to make it risky for them), and it'll make them stop if their smart, or try doing something like faking it (Pit likes to fake one and shoot it up, then approach after), which isn't a big deal if you can play that accordingly too (be at the right distance/cancel it/you have lots of time to Up-B or Nade or Shield).

Thoughts on that, if any different?

LOL I feel sorta bad for making you actually respond at length, but I was actually 100% trolling, I don't think Snake is one of the worst in the game, I actually think he is great and im probably one of if not the best Snake player atm so I understand how to play him probably better than most people.

But yeah, I wasn't too sure if you knew I was trolling or not, but just in case you didn't I thought I wouldn't make you write lengthy responses, especially when numerous people who know I play Snake in this thread would prob get bored of it lol.

 

[9bit_alt]

Aww. Well I guess it had to end at some point.

 

[Nausicaa]

LOL I feel sorta bad for making you actually respond at length, but I was actually 100% trolling, I don't think Snake is one of the worst in the game, I actually think he is great and im probably one of if not the best Snake player atm so I understand how to play him probably better than most people.

But yeah, I wasn't too sure if you knew I was trolling or not, but just in case you didn't I thought I wouldn't make you write lengthy responses, especially when numerous people who know I play Snake in this thread would prob get bored of it lol.

LOL well then.
I knew you played Snake and were a solid player. (this is Bamesy btw, we discussed Wolf-stuff long before you switched to Snake deciding Wolf wasn't as good and wasn't working for you)
I just thought you, as a solid player who was using Snake a lot, genuinely thought he was bad, or at least was actually thinking Snake had trouble with a lot of this 'stuff' and couldn't get around it.
Good Troll, jerk.

Pretty accurate regarding vulnerable recovery and poor mobility etc though, and hopefully my random comments can help someone reading in the meantime.
I'll have to catch some more to-date Snake vids of you sometime, and eventually share my own.
I'm sure you've come far with discovery and development since you started with him.

 

[Professor Pro]

LOL well then.
I knew you played Snake and were a solid player. (this is Bamesy btw, we discussed Wolf-stuff long before you switched to Snake deciding Wolf wasn't as good and wasn't working for you)
I just thought you, as a solid player who was using Snake a lot, genuinely thought he was bad, or at least was actually thinking Snake had trouble with a lot of this 'stuff' and couldn't get around it.
Good Troll, jerk.

Pretty accurate regarding vulnerable recovery and poor mobility etc though, and hopefully my random comments can help someone reading in the meantime.
I'll have to catch some more to-date Snake vids of you sometime, and eventually share my own.
I'm sure you've come far with discovery and development since you started with him.

Ohhhhhh, yeah I do remember you lol, for the record I never switched to Snake because my Wolf wasn't working, I can still play Wolf pretty well and a lot better than I could back when I posted my matches on Smashmods which was just like when 2.1 just got released I think lol.
it's because I played Fox in Melee for like 5 years and input wise a lot of things and movement felt extremely similar, and it got boring, and I always play whatever character I enjoy the most.

And as for the most to-date Snake vids it would have to be from this which happened a week ago

http://www.twitch.tv/jolte0n/b/397043456
0:00 - 9:17 vs Hoe4u (Pikachu)
17:16 - 32:02 vs Jolteon (Snake Dittos lol)
37:56 - 53:31 vs Alpha Dash (Wario/R.O.B/Diddy)

 

[Nausicaa]

Ohhhhhh, yeah I do remember you lol, for the record I never switched to Snake because my Wolf wasn't working, I can still play Wolf pretty well and a lot better than I could back when I posted my matches on Smashmods which was just like when 2.1 just got released I think lol.
it's because I played Fox in Melee for like 5 years and input wise a lot of things and movement felt extremely similar, and it got boring, and I always play whatever character I enjoy the most.

And as for the most to-date Snake vids it would have to be from this which happened a week ago

http://www.twitch.tv/jolte0n/b/397043456
0:00 - 9:17 vs Hoe4u (Pikachu)
17:16 - 32:02 vs Jolteon (Snake Dittos lol)
37:56 - 53:31 vs Alpha Dash (Wario/R.O.B/Diddy)

haha for sure, I just put it simply about switching because of preference of style + funner and better character, etc, makes a good combo.
Snake is mighty sexy.

That seems to be the nature of every Melee player taking up Wolf, much to my discontent. >_> lol
I'm sure it's better now, and likely quite competent among others. Though for the record (I've said it before as I'm sure you've heard/remember), I haven't even mildly considered any player's Wolf to date to be 'good' at all in terms of Wolf-specific stuff, especially not any within those first few months. As you said, it's just too easy to pick him up and do 'normal' stuff and it's tough to get beyond that when something is that easy. Watching people in the first months made me shudder, with most stuff in the game. Meant with all the niceness possible, though that could easily sound rude. haha

I'll check those out, I think I saw them posted somewhere else too.
Always fun to watch quality players working at the game.
Soon enough I'll get some stuff up too, though I probably haven't improved at the game much since mid-July in terms of actual smash-capability, simply more knowledge-base and concept-insights. It's been so few and far between casuals only, maybe when recording I'll have to step it up and take it seriously, otherwise there's no point in posting poor play. That wouldn't help anyone at all. lol

Hopefully I can get some pointers from you (and others) when that happens. I could use a kick-starter of critique to get back into this game on a more competitive note again. <3


Edit: Tier list, right.
Do you think Wolf is still 'sub-par' (I'm pretty sure you mentioned something along those lines to me once) or has he kind of risen in your thoughts as a solid 'as good as Snake' character?
Seemed to be a trend of 'Wolf isn't good enough' that's changing into 'Wolf is near top of the cast'

 

[Professor Pro]

haha for sure, I just put it simply about switching because of preference of style + funner and better character, etc, makes a good combo.
Snake is mighty sexy.

That seems to be the nature of every Melee player taking up Wolf, much to my discontent. >_> lol
I'm sure it's better now, and likely quite competent among others. Though for the record (I've said it before as I'm sure you've heard/remember), I haven't even mildly considered any player's Wolf to date to be 'good' at all in terms of Wolf-specific stuff, especially not any within those first few months. As you said, it's just too easy to pick him up and do 'normal' stuff and it's tough to get beyond that when something is that easy. Watching people in the first months made me shudder, with most stuff in the game. Meant with all the niceness possible, though that could easily sound rude. haha

I'll check those out, I think I saw them posted somewhere else too.
Always fun to watch quality players working at the game.
Soon enough I'll get some stuff up too, though I probably haven't improved at the game much since mid-July in terms of actual smash-capability, simply more knowledge-base and concept-insights. It's been so few and far between casuals only, maybe when recording I'll have to step it up and take it seriously, otherwise there's no point in posting poor play. That wouldn't help anyone at all. lol

Hopefully I can get some pointers from you (and others) when that happens. I could use a kick-starter of critique to get back into this game on a more competitive note again. <3


Edit: Tier list, right.
Do you think Wolf is still 'sub-par' (I'm pretty sure you mentioned something along those lines to me once) or has he kind of risen in your thoughts as a solid 'as good as Snake' character?
Seemed to be a trend of 'Wolf isn't good enough' that's changing into 'Wolf is near top of the cast'

You should definitely try and get some vids up, that's what interest me the most, I much more prefer having discussions with decent vids presents then discussions from personal exp, because things get misconstrued among different levels of play which can't be demonstrated.

And I don't know where Wolf or Snake would be on the Tier List, I have a feeling both of them will be in the top 1/4 but it's hard to say, because for me to say that would mean I have a good understanding of a lot of the characters at high level, which I don't.
But both of the chars from my experience can hold their own very well and are solid characters.

 

[Jolteon]

Prof basically means vids or gtfo

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

I swear Ness will be at the bottom of every tier list until he's transformed the most one dimensional and/or broken character in the entire Smash series.

 

[Kink-Link5]

If you want to rank characters on a matter of pure moveset and character statistics, use Mobility, Coverage, Safety, and Stage Control as your defining traits, and look at them in less black and white terms. Assigning numbers means nothing for analyzing how or why a character is mobile. The characters who have the best combination of those four traits will be the ones securing hits more often. From there, you can look at the rewards they get off hits: Gimps, damage relative to kill percents, and outright kills. But you can't look at the effect in a matter-of-fact way without first and foremost deeply understanding the cause. I don't care that Falcon is getting easymodo reads and combos off his grab, I care about how he's landing the grab in the first place and how he's interacting with the opponent before hand.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I swear Ness will be at the bottom of every tier list until he's transformed the most one dimensional and/or broken character in the entire Smash series.

It's a consequence of having an intentionally slow and terrible DJ and being made entirely out of character quirks.

 

[Blondie.]

If you want to rank characters on a matter of pure moveset and character statistics, use Mobility, Coverage, Safety, and Stage Control as your defining traits, and look at them in less black and white terms. Assigning numbers means nothing for analyzing how or why a character is mobile. The characters who have the best combination of those four traits will be the ones securing hits more often. From there, you can look at the rewards they get off hits: Gimps, damage relative to kill percents, and outright kills. But you can't look at the effect in a matter-of-fact way without first and foremost deeply understanding the cause. I don't care that Falcon is getting easymodo reads and combos off his grab, I care about how he's landing the grab in the first place and how he's interacting with the opponent before hand.

That's a good suggestion. I'll definitely take that into account when I make my next list.

I was debating putting Stage Control in this list, but I felt it was too similar to zoning. However looking back, I should have definitely had a stage control section.

The only problem is the categories you gave me are pretty hard to define. What makes a character good at maintaining stage control, and what makes them bad? Mobility can be defined more easily, but I'm not sure who has better stage control,for example Fox or Zelda?

Also, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "Coverage" and "Safety". Do you mean like safe on shield? And coverage seems like it would be very closely linked to mobility and stage control.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Coverage is an association of when and where a move hits, along with how easily it can beat an opponent's move. Shine is a move with perfect coverage.

Traits aren't quantifiable. The only ones that are are safety, since it's directly related to frame data, and aspects of Mobility.

The point isn't to say "Who has better stage control, Fox or Zelda?" The point is too look at how characters interact with each other in the actual game and see how those matchups stackup with the rest of the cast. (The answer is Fox by the by)

Hence "metagaming": Looking beyond the game as a series of hex values saying what a character is and can do and examining how those data bytes interact with one another in a series of hypothetical and practical situations.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

Like for real I'd put him like right next to Link.

Same here, I played against Sora's TL with my Link, probably the longest most stressful matches I've ever played lol TL is crazy

 

[Oro?!]

I don't know why but I disagree with basically everything everyone posts about ZSS.

 

[Jolteon]

I don't know why but I disagree with basically everything everyone posts about ZSS.

I have a good idea why...

 

[Juushichi]

I remember when ZSS was put below Zelda in that other game too.

 

[Nausicaa]

It's too awkward to just pick up and go with old habits, ideas of what characters should usually play like, and space-animal amounts of aerial/button spam, buff Lucas plx
Oh, wrong character.
I meant Luigi...

**** never mind.

 

[Minor Pandemic]

I'm not totally familiar with everyone's thoughts on Mario, but he seems a bit low on that list. Would anyone care to explain his placement to me?

 

[CyberZixx]

General consensus is that Mario is boss. I don't really understand the character but he seems to be good in a lot of key areas.

 

[Bryonato]

I'm not totally familiar with everyone's thoughts on Mario, but he seems a bit low on that list. Would anyone care to explain his placement to me?

He does a lot of things well but he doesn't really excel in one particular area. He's an "all around" character by design.

 

[CyberZixx]

Of all the characters I find Mario the least intuitive to fight. Can't get a handle on that guy.

 

[\Apples]

There's nothing wrong with Luigi, he's a hoss.

And regarding Mario, he's also great. Most would place him high on their tier list. In fact, I think most characters in this game are very strong, and listing them in a particular order doesn't really do their quality justice, especially with a large cast. Tier lists look sillier and sillier the more cyclical imbalancing a multiplayer game employs. More importantly, the general player-base that spends most of their time on the boards typically doesn't possess the most well-founded insight on the game. Furthermore, if you read the full post, you'd know that recent list just demonstrates a prototype of an arbitrary new metric used to rank characters' viability. It's something much more useful while designing a game, but often doesn't end up holding much water after extensive playtesting develops a metagame.

 

[SpiderMad]

Sometimes I wonder if half the stuff Mario should be doing is Caping

 

[B.W.]

Cape is the best.

Cape to reflect projectiles.

Cape to reverse momentum.

Cape to reverse controls.

Cape to recover.

Cape to do damage through shields.

Cape to not wake Jigglypuff/undo shield break stun

Cape to ruin up-B recoveries.

Cape to ruin double jump recoveries.

Cape when running off a platform/the stage to gain extra distance without wasting your double jump so that you can do mindgames/edgeguard more efficiently.

Cape and then wonder why I don't main this character anymore.