Tier List Speculation

[Deleted member]

the unfortunate thing about ness is that at the end of the day, it's still ness.

 

[The_NZA]

the unfortunate thing about ness is that at the end of the day, it's still ness.

Don't say that gpal! There's a legitimate character there. With Hard work, I believe the BR will polish a diamond out of that sucker.

 

[Scythe]

yeah he's booty

 

[Juushichi]

Don't say that gpal! There's a legitimate character there. With Hard work, I believe the BR will polish a diamond out of that sucker.

I think this is pretty accurate for this. Just replace LoL with Smash.

 

[The_NZA]

lol.

I think this is pretty accurate for this. Just replace LoL with Smash.

LOL. But i'm not talking about play. I'm talking about design.

In his current state, maybe Ness can't be top dog. But he doesn't have to be in his current state.

 

[Nausicaa]

Poor Ness gets no slack.
Melee and PM Zelda aren't really comparable.
DMG, learn to theory-craft better if you're gonna do it. haha

The only way a tier-list makes any sense is if it's in that type of chart, so it's necessary if anything BW requested is to be accomplished.

 

[Oracle]

Ness is godlike idk whts wrong with you guys.

 

[Jabejazz]

Nothing's wrong with us, but you have a face on your chest.

Ness for secret god tier.

 

[The_NZA]

Care to share your insights oracle?

 

[Nausicaa]

It's a secret, of course not.

In other news, I heard Ness is secretly god tier.
Anyone have any thoughts on that? THAT UP-THROW > SH DOWN-B > FAIR > RE-GRAB > REPEAT IS TOO GOOD!!!

 

[Deleted member]

As the former best zelda player in the world, i absolutely love melee zelda and PM zelda does nothing for me.

I'm sorry to hear that, but I personally don't get it and find the sentiment nonsensical.

 

[The_NZA]

It's a secret, of course not.

In other news, I heard Ness is secretly god tier.
Anyone have any thoughts on that? THAT UP-THROW > SH DOWN-B > FAIR > RE-GRAB > REPEAT IS TOO GOOD!!!

Think ya mean dthrow brah. Unless its a spaceman party. Heard someone invited a juggler.

 

[Ace55]

Ah, Bamesy is back. Now we just need Insane Carzy Guy and this place will feel like home again.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Melee and PM Zelda aren't really comparable.

It's almost like nothing about her character build resembles her Melee toolset or is fun to play against.

 

[Oracle]

melee zelda's playstyle is a side effect of having one of the worst movesets in all of smash bros. She has like 5 viable moves, and since grab is not one of them she just ends up doing the same exact thing patiently until it works. The only reason cosmo beats people is that he's INSANELY patient, probably one of the most patient players ever to pick up the game.

Care to share your insights oracle?

so this character has:
peach's nair
five frame powerful meteor
fair that will beat out almost any other move in an air to air trade
shiek's down throw
upair that kills and is guaranteed on most characters out of a dthrow
projectile that is effectively unblockable with very little landing lag
yoyos that cover 100% of most characters tech options if used right (up smash also kills)
recovery that most characters cannot safely edgeguard
double jump cancelling
best dash grab in the game
fsmash with crazy range that does 25% damage sweetspotted
among the least hitstun in the game, which combined with high air mobility means that he lives for a long time similar to peach

 

[The_NZA]

Just to go back on DDD-My impressions in purple.

Some random DDD ideas for improvement:

• A Warrio-like running grab (animation could be similar to dash attack for mixups) (Great Idea)
  • And/or change his nuetral-B to suck opponent into a grab hold (and probably make it faster to start up) (Not feeling this)
• Standing Up-B (on the ground) does something else. Sorta like Link/TL have. This will also help his OoS game and give his Up-B a reason to ever be used (I think a grounded upB should just be a regular upb with almost no start-up, and should be able to be acted out of, to help DDD chase vertically)
• Increase all or most of his hitbox radii like Oro suggested (can you imagine the Fairs!?) (This is really important. Especially for nair. Maybe it should have a weaker ending hitbox, like a sex kick, to help the comboability. If it hits a grounded opponent, it should send them at an angle he can follow up with)
• A perfectly-timed Up-B cancel (perhaps using the L-cancelling timing) should have less landing lag (This could be cool)
• Eating your own Waddles with neutral-B heals you a little, or you can spit them at opponents as stars (or both: hitting Down on control stick would eat and absorb) (I don't like the healing. But the star spitting is a good idea to extend or start combos)
• If you smack your Waddle and it flies into the opponent, they should take damage / knockback (Absolutely. One addendum: I think you should be able to grab your waddle dees like you would grab an opponent, and fthrow/bthrow them at your opponent)
• Ability to use up additional jumps while holding Down-B hammer (It's pretty powerful already...im undecided)
• Using diagonal-down on control stick while holding Down-B hammer allows backwards walking (Yes)
• Change exhale trajectory on neutral-B to facilitate better comboing out of it (Yes)

I would add a couple other things. I think Waddle doos and dees should have different trajectories upon impact (when thrown or hammered into an opponents). I think dees should knock people up, allowing you to take to the air and follow up. Doos should knock them to the side causing them to slide across the ground, similar to fox's shine trajectory when his opponent is on the stage. The reason why I like this is a big part of DDD is the unpredictability and the comedy. To make the keep away game of a big sluggish character exciting, this type of reaction will be really fun to witness. When you throw a doo/dee at an opponent, you dont know if you have to suddenly take to the air, or chase them off stage.

I would also give DDD a crawl, but instead of crawling, he slides on his belly across the ground with a really fast speed. He wouldn't be able to approach/act out of a slide, but he could jump out of it. This would give him a pretty hilarious and menacing way to chase opponents off the stage when he knocks them away.

Finally, I think his minions should attack more often and shouldn't walk off/commit suicide.

 

[The_NZA]

accidental double post

 

[Kink-Link5]

melee zelda's playstyle is a side effect of having one of the worst movesets in all of smash bros. She has like 5 viable moves, and since grab is not one of them she just ends up doing the same exact thing patiently until it works. The only reason cosmo beats people is that he's INSANELY patient, probably one of the most patient players ever to pick up the game.

so this character has:
peach's nair
five frame powerful meteor
fair that will beat out almost any other move in an air to air trade
shiek's down throw
upair that kills and is guaranteed on most characters out of a dthrow
projectile that is effectively unblockable with very little landing lag
yoyos that cover 100% of most characters tech options if used right (up smash also kills)
recovery that most characters cannot safely edgeguard
double jump cancelling
best dash grab in the game
fsmash with crazy range that does 25% damage sweetspotted
among the least hitstun in the game, which combined with high air mobility means that he lives for a long time similar to peach

Win a tournament with Ness.

Also almost all of those points are flat out incorrect, grossly exaggerated, or ignoring the myriad better traits most characters have in comparison.

 

[The_NZA]

melee zelda's playstyle is a side effect of having one of the worst movesets in all of smash bros. She has like 5 viable moves, and since grab is not one of them she just ends up doing the same exact thing patiently until it works. The only reason cosmo beats people is that he's INSANELY patient, probably one of the most patient players ever to pick up the game.

so this character has:
1. peach's nair
His nair is good but low range. It comes out fast like peach's, but it doesn't trade like hers, and often cant combo like hers because he lacks the horizontal mobility to follow up.


2. five frame powerful meteor
His meteor is fast but its weak. Pretty much everyone can safely meteor cancel it (and for some of the cast, like sonic, it helps them recover). But really, that's not the issue. It is his aerial mobility and capability to intercept a target. His mobility means he can't combo into it very well (unless its out of a low percent uair or the occasional badly Di'd fair). Primarily, then, he has to intercept a foe which is hard considering his slow jump speed.


3. fair that will beat out almost any other move in an air to air trade
Fair is his ONLY move besides pkfire that can control space. As soon as he faces someone who can trump fair, they have effectively trumped ness.

4. shiek's down throw
Can't argue. His dthrow is sick.

5. upair that kills and is guaranteed on most characters out of a dthrow
His uair, when DI'd, really cant kill on most of the cast until 130%+ (from the air). Oftentimes at that percentage, good DI from a dthrow means you wont land it. It has very low range, so it can't exchange very well against most dairs.

it's a good move, and at low percents it combos into itself, but it has the potential to have more comboability than it currently does. Right now, face any character that isn't large, heavy, or a spacie, and you will find you can't really link uairs all that well. Some sweet percentages, you can get two, and it proves itself useful. Sometimes it can even deliver a kill if you catch an opponent making a mistake. Usually, it doesn't.


6. projectile that is effectively unblockable with very little landing lag
Its a good projectile, but its his only space control aside from fair, and its actually really easy to dodge. If you keep it in mind, it wont touch you even if you are a little above the ground. And if Ness is 45 degrees from you, you should be looking out for it. It's not bad, I'll give you that.

7. yoyos that cover 100% of most characters tech options if used right (up smash also kills)}
usmash barely kills and the yoyos are REALLY slow. They can be used to cover tech options, but pretty much almost every other characters I can think of has better answers to tech chasing.

8. recovery that most characters cannot safely edgeguard
This is really false. Ness's recovery is very particular to figure out, but not hard to counter. It is deceptive, like Marth's recovery. If you don't know what you are doing, you will get hit. But once you realize most bairs can hit him out of it, and once he commits to it, he is predictable as hell, you can pretty much answer it consistently. Just go to where you think he's going to land, and knock him out. He might try and recover high, but his horizontal movement when he falls is fairly limited. You should be able to catch him.

9. double jump cancelling
It's prettttty sick.

10. best dash grab in the game
So apparently his framerate says his isTotal: 41 frames
Grab: 8-9
I don't really know how good that is relative to the cast. I JC grab all the time. Habit from how bad his grab range is and how low his mobility is..

11. fsmash with crazy range that does 25% damage sweetspotted

It has good range, bad startup. And its hitbox is fairly straight forward. You can angle it, which makes it sick against aerial approaches. But it will always be situational because you will get punished if you just throw it out there. You can't combo into it, its pretty bad for tech chasing, and very unsafe. Its good for hard reads, and for edge guarding, which i don't think is a problem. Its just part of his design.

12. among the least hitstun in the game, which combined with high air mobility means that he lives for a long time similar to peach
I do live for a while when I play him.

You are obviously a great smash player. But I don't think you completely get the mitigating factors to Ness's positives.

Basically, Ness has an amazing tool kit, but he lacks the basic fundamental movement, speed, and options to take advantage of it. That's why noone's suggesting to change his aerials or his b specials (outside of magnet). They are well designed in a vacuum. But he can't get in on many characters, making his matchups polarizing. I actually like Ness v. Spacies, or Ness v. Big characters. But he can not combo a lot of the cast very well, and in those matchups it is an uphill battle.

 

[Nausicaa]

I think his minions should attack more often.

^That would be great.
I'm pretty sure it was me that mentioned the 'bigger hit-boxes' thing, as that quote is after I said it, but maybe Oro mentioned it too.

I'm simply fond of the mild hilarity this texture brings.
Dedede Boss Troll
http://www.mediafire.com/?h2wj5tqzpwvgi4c

If you haven't tried it, do it. The hammer is awesome, a little much, but I love the direction this texture brought the character. (Makes me feel like I'm struggling less, especially in doubles 1 vs 2 situations. lol)
I think that's the texture, if not, it's another Boss Troll somewhere.


Edit: I know I might have a reputation of saying 'this character is fine' about EVERY character... since day 1... (exception: Dedede) but... Ness is fine.
I haven't worked with him myself yet, but will soon enough.
Until then, LEAVE HIM ALONE!!!



On topic + Useful
What about Dedede and Ness (Zelda since she's still floating around) DOES work, and what can we do with them AS THEY ARE that can help them deal with characters that 'already' work?

 

[Oracle]

Win a tournament with Ness.

Also almost all of those points are flat out incorrect, grossly exaggerated, or ignoring the myriad better traits most characters have in comparison.

how about you get something other than last place at a tournament then you can come talk to me. for now stick to your theorycrafting and shut the **** up when grown folks is talking

1. His nair is good but low range. It comes out fast like peach's, but it doesn't trade like hers, and often cant combo like hers because he lacks the horizontal mobility to follow up.

actually, it does have very high priority and speed (4 frames), just like peach's nair. The hitbox has deceptively long range and actually covers his whole body (peach's leaves her legs vulnerable). The other reason that his nair is so useful is his lack of hitstun, which means he has a very dangerous move to beat out many other moves when other characters try to combo him.

2. His meteor is fast but its weak. Pretty much everyone can safely meteor cancel it (and for some of the cast, it helps them). But really, that's not the issue. It is his aerial mobility and capability to intercept a target. His mobility means he can't combo into it very well (unless its out of a low percent uair or the occasional badly Di'd fair). Primarily, then, he has to intercept a foe which is hard considering his slow jump speed.

plenty of moves lead into down air, it just depends on di (you get other hits when they di away from the dair), but usually you have to incorporate double jump cancelling . The move is fairly powerful, though its no falcon dair, and it excels in two categories: tech chasing and edgeguarding. an offstage dair past about 50% is next to impossible for most characters to recover from even if they do get the meteor cancel. the fact that his recovery is very good combined with dair's large number of active frames means that ness can go really far offstage to where most characters are still very vulnerable and give them the boot. Plus, most characters in this game have poor vertical recoveries but good horizontal, making the dair more useful in general

3. Fair is his ONLY move besides pkfire that can control space. As soon as he faces someone who can trump fair, they have effectively trumped ness.

he has an akuma fireball that will lead to a free hit if it lands, comes down straight in front of him, and has very little landing lag. Why do I need another move to zone? space in front of ness is always in ness's control due to his ridiculous dash grab, and while in the air ness is always dangerous with pkfire.

5. His uair, when DI'd, really cant kill on most of the cast until 130%+ (from the air). Oftentimes at that percentage, good DI from a dthrow means you wont land it. It has very low range, so it can't exchange very well against most dairs.

it kills earlier than 130 lol. a good amount of the time that ness is landing kill percent upairs is after a grounded dair, which will put them very close to the ceiling. You may not always get it from a grab on all characters at that percent, but 130% is kill percent off of his backthrow for the majority of characters

it's a good move, and at low percents it combos into itself, but it has the potential to have more comboability than it currently does. Right now, face any character that isn't large, heavy, or a spacie, and you will find you can't really link uairs all that well. Some sweet percentages, you can get two, and it proves itself as useful. Sometimes it can even deliver a kill if you catch an opponent making a mistake.

i agree it doesn't combo well, but I don't think that's the main purpose of the move

6. Its a good projectile, but its his only space control aside from fair, and its actually really easy to dodge. If you keep it in mind, it wont touch you even if you are a little above the ground. And if Ness is 45 degrees from you, you should be looking out for it. It's not bad, I'll give you that.

dodging pkf is really unsafe due to the lack of significant landing lag and ness's options from an air position. from a full hop, when ness is about a two ness's high in the air, he threatens with pkf, but the only options to dodge the move and gain position are roll in, which is pretty obviously bad, and spotdodge, both of which can easily be baited out and punished by double jumping to stall and using a fair/bair/pkf/whatever.

7. usmash barely kills and the yoyos are REALLY slow. They can be used to cover tech options, but pretty much most characters I can think of have better answers to tech chasing.

Upsmash isn't the best kill move, but most kill moves don't cover as many options as that move. If i'm tech chasing, the speed does not matter because the dsmash will actually cover 100% of most character's tech options. Upsmash generally only covers 3/4 unless the opponent has a bad tech roll, but has a bit of a better reward.

8. This is really false. Ness's recovery is very particular to figure out, but not hard to counter. It is deceptive, like Marth's recovery. If you don't know what you are doing, you will get hit. But once you realize most bairs can hit him out of it, and once he commits to it, he is predictable as hell, you can pretty much answer it consistently. Just go to where you think he's going to land, and knock him out. He might try and recover high, but his horizontal movement when he falls is fairly limited. You should be able to catch him.

PKT2 has INSANE priority. Characters without a solid disjoint can't safely get around this. The move also has ridiculous shieldstun and no landing lag if done correctly, so shielding the move is usually also a bad option. Most bairs? pft. the really good bairs like shiek's or a spacie or marths can hit him out of it, but ness can stall far enough away and keep options open by varying the timing of the pkt2 that covering one direction will get you hit by the other one. The reward is so ridiculous from the pkt2 hit that for most characters, it makes no sense from a risk/reward standpoint to attempt to hit him out of it, especially since due to his air speed and lack of hitstun, he'll probably just get another chance to recover.

Basically, even if you do have a move that can safely hit ness out of pkt2 (most characters don't), you're usually taking too big of a risk to do so over and over again to kill him. the reason basically everyone thinks that ness's recovery is bad is that the vast majority of ness players are terrible at recovering.

10. Actually, Ness's dash grab hasn't changed I think from melee...and it was one of the worst then. I wouldn't really know, I JC grab all the time. Habit from how bad his grab range is.

this is just misinformation. Ness's dash grab comes from brawl, which lunges him forward extremely far, giving it huge range. However, the real reason that his dash grab is so amazing is that it comes out in 7 frames instead of 9, the usual dash grab speed.

11. It has good range, bad startup. And its hitbox is fairly straight forward. You can angle it, which makes it sick against aerial approaches. But it will always be situational because you will get punished if you just throw it out there. You can't combo into it, its pretty bad for tech chasing, and very unsafe. Its good for hard reads, and for edge guarding, which i don't think is a problem. Its just part of his design.

its generally not a move to throw out, but as a punishment its pretty ridiculous.

Basically, Ness has an amazing tool kit, but he lacks the basic fundamental movement, speed, and options to take advantage of it. That's why noone's suggesting to change his aerials or his b specials (outside of magnet). They are well designed in a vacuum. But he can't get in on many characters, making his matchups polarizing. I actually like Ness v. Spacies, or Ness v. Big characters. But he can not combo a lot of the cast very well, and in those matchups it is an uphill battle.

ness doesn't need to be approaching when he has aerial pk fire. he can combo pretty much the whole cast well. fairs lead to more fairs or grabs against floaties, all midweight characters get chaingrabbed close to death, and fast fallers get chaingrabbed/yoyo comboed to death.

 

[The_NZA]

^That would be great.
I'm pretty sure it was me that mentioned the 'bigger hit-boxes' thing, as that quote is after I said it, but maybe Oro mentioned it too.

I'm simply fond of the mild hilarity this texture brings.
Dedede Boss Troll
http://www.mediafire.com/?h2wj5tqzpwvgi4c

If you haven't tried it, do it. The hammer is awesome, a little much, but I love the direction this texture brought the character. (Makes me feel like I'm struggling less, especially in doubles 1 vs 2 situations. lol)
I think that's the texture, if not, it's another Boss Troll somewhere.


Edit: I know I might have a reputation of saying 'this character is fine' about EVERY character... since day 1... (exception: Dedede) but... Ness is fine.
I haven't worked with him myself yet, but will soon enough.
Until then, LEAVE HIM ALONE!!!



On topic + Useful
What about Dedede and Ness (Zelda since she's still floating around) DOES work, and what can we do with them AS THEY ARE that can help them deal with characters that 'already' work?

I don't think you really read what I posted about Ness. First off, it's silly for you to say we should keep Ness how they are until you've given him a chance––many of us have been giving him a chance since we dl'd PM and these are insights from a lot of playtime.

I am suggesting some pretty sweeping stuff for DDD because right now he literally feels like a brawl character dropped in PM without cohesion of a moveset, and with certain tools working out. The issue with Ness is that his tools work perfectly fine as intended. He just has some fundamental problems getting in, which would be solved with some stat changes and a slight reworking of magnet. Within my essay on Ness, I try my best at identifying what he does do very very well. Just go up a page and read it.

I recommend you and Oracle both playing Ness next time you are in a game and just double jumping. See how slow that is. Grab an edge and try and waveland onto the stage. See how slow that is. He has serious problems following up on his targets unless they are a. heavy, b. fast fallers, c. large. That's his most fundamental problem.

Down B could be "retooled" slightly.

 

[The_NZA]

how about you get something other than last place at a tournament then you can come talk to me. for now stick to your theorycrafting and shut the **** up when grown folks is talking

lol. I don't have a thriving PM scene nearby. And I love that you are copping my shut down line. But read through what I wrote and I think you will find a lot of truth.

 

[Oracle]

lol. I don't have a thriving PM scene nearby. And I love that you are copping my shut down line. But read through what I wrote and I think you will find a lot of truth.

oh I was responding to kink link he was being a ****. you were respectful so you get a real response

 

[The_NZA]

Oh I know that. You and me got mutual respect, son. I just like your usage of Black Dynamite.

 

[The_NZA]

Where did you get your frame data from?

http://smashboards.com/threads/p-m-ness-frame-data-thread.333297/

That forum has his dash grab at a totally different number.

 

[Oracle]

that thread has the same info as me. Comes out in 7 frames =hits on frame 8-9

 

[Nausicaa]

I don't think you really read what I posted about Ness. First off, it's silly for you to say we should keep Ness how they are until you've given him a chance––many of us have been giving him a chance since we dl'd PM and these are insights from a lot of playtime.
noobs
I am suggesting some pretty sweeping stuff for DDD because right now he literally feels like a brawl character dropped in PM without cohesion of a moveset, and with certain tools working out. The issue with Ness is that his tools work perfectly fine as intended. He just has some fundamental problems getting in, which would be solved with some stat changes and a slight reworking of magnet. Within my essay on Ness, I try my best at identifying what he does do very very well. Just go up a page and read it.
Try the Troll texture, it's great for Trolling people.
He's linear and fluffy, and it makes him very distinct as a character, it's possible to make him 'good' with that distinction, without adding crazy extra things. Anything sweeping (I assume this means 'more options/tools/diversity) takes away from this trait, which is a pretty cool design if (when) it can be made to work. It just BARELY doesn't work right now, nothing drastic needed, just tweaks.
Edit: I should add, IF he just barely works... he might work already. I haven't worked with him yet (just like Ness), only played with him for purely leisure, and have found him to be a struggle to succeed with when optimizing everything I'm currently aware of optimizing. Hence my initial question...
Does anyone else have hope for this guy? Maybe? And if so, help me?

Ness might not have crazy hard-hit-box spacing pokes outside a few tools, or speed overall to maximize what he does have, but he has enough flexibility, utility, and good traits in essential places, to not be garbage. He's better than Dedede, leave him alone!
I recommend you and Oracle both playing Ness next time you are in a game and just double jumping. See how slow that is. Grab an edge and try and waveland onto the stage. See how slow that is. He has serious problems following up on his targets unless they are a. heavy, b. fast fallers, c. large. That's his most fundamental problem.
You can do a normal Ledge-Jump and Waveland on in Project: M, it's something Peach and Ness benefit from greatly, and almost just as functional as a DJ WL. (Hence my love of LJ > WL > Dash Pivot D-Smash against people trying to edge-control me, which I mentioned in that early post where you talked about Yoyo stuff)
Ness shouldn't be trying to follow up with things he can follow up on then. That's all.
Resets are fine if you're gaining positional advantage, which should be your target anyway.
I don't plan on playing Ness next time I play, I have strict(ish) rules with my game that allow me to play ~2/3 times a month and stay on par with tournament-winning standards. In fact, if it weren't for Dazzle coming soon, I'd be quitting for the summer to work on UMvC3 stuff, as I've started following the community a little more (because smashers have been doing well) and found out my Spider-Morri-Doom team from Vanilla might actually be top-tier in that game... bad-ass. On a more important note, there are 2 local Ness's that prove he is a serious problem in doubles (just 1 Ness, not meaning 2 on a team here), and that counts for something.
Doubles = Less big combos, more resets and control, stuff your mentioning, which are really things Ness shouldn't be trying to do anyway... that you're complaining about.

Down B could be "retooled" slightly.
Little more knock-back? It's FINE! LOL

Partial jkz in a lot of that, just an fyi. lol

 

[Plum]

Oh man these last couple pages need a tldr
Maybe I would read them if I cared about Zelda or Ness... but I can't bring myself to...

 

[The_NZA]

So let me make some claims on your responses. In general, I do not argue with your assessment of the practicality of Ness's moveset. I think you over exaggerate it, but I actually think those aspects of ness are fairly well designed.

I agreed that Ness's nair was fast and good as a counter, but I think you are overexaggerating it's range. Priority in smash is largely about range when dealing with aerials, and ness's nair does not have the hit box of a fox nair, link nair, falco nair, peach nair (on the sides. Ness's might cover his body but he is much smaller than her), shiek nair, or as far as im concerned, most nairs. But it has its uses.

Ness's dair is useful, but you are totally wrong about that 50% number. Maybe that's true on Melee Yoshi's Island, and maybe its true on Falco, captain falcon, Ivy, Link, and Marth. But most characters in this game can survive it past that number. For the record, I DJC very well, so you should probably assume when I make my assessments, it comes from a Ness main. Granted, you haven't seen me on video and I can't show you on video, so you'll have to take a leap of faith that I'm decent. Hopefully I'll rectify that by going to a tourney around here.

Ness's smashes are slow and I think you are over exaggerating their uses in tech chasing/punishing. Most people's smashes are decent at tech chasing/punishing. I think Ness's fsmash is worse than many fsmashes at punishing, and usually a character that lacks a good fsmash or usmash will compensate with a good downsmash. Ness's usmash is slow, and while it does cover his whole body, it is usually worse than his other options. His dsmash isn't much faster or better at killing.

The PM topic on framerate data seems to suggest your wrong about his dashgrab (and I was as well--its not its melee incarnation. I edited and fixed that shortly after posting it). But moreso, dash grab speeds are irrelevant cause at peak play, everyone JC's their grabs. Ness's JC grab is offset by a bad grab range.

And on his recovery, I would definitely say your exaggerating. I know how to recover as Ness––most people don't know how to edge guard him. Its funny because Sethlon I hear plays Awestin a lot, but from watching that video I was shocked by the Edge guarding decisions Sethlon made against Awestin. In many matches from that video you posted, sethlon would walk out of range and fsmash him--– this is good. But sometimes he would try and contend with the upb, and would try and spike Ness after the PK2 came out. This is SO unnecessarily risky. If ness is upbing from the bottom, he really cant sweet spot. As marth, you just need to back up, wait for it to come out, and then retrieve him in the air. I agree with you that Ness's upb has a lot of priority, but you can deal with this by just catching him after his invulnerability has run out and he's falling, or by hitting him out of it if you confidently know you have a hitbox like DDD's bair that can contend with it.

But all that stuff isn't really central to my argument on why Ness has problems. Like you said "he has good tools" and I agree with that. The only tool you call good that I fundamentally think your wrong about are his smashes.

The main problem with Ness is that he can't control space and he can't get in. You keep talking about how good pkfire is but let me run you through something. A character with a projectile and space control game never has to approach ness and can force him to approach. When that happens, no PK fire is going to reach you. When Ness approaches, he has to rely on fair or grabs, which isn't so bad until fair gets countered. When that happens, Ness loses most of his ability to **** around his opponent. You can run in for a grab, but most good players should realize if a Ness is approaching by ground, he's going to grab you (possibly dash attack you but his is kind of a ranged attack and if he steps past a certain line, it becomes obvious he isn't going for that).

If a character has to go in to contend with ness because they don't have a projectile like that (say captain falcon, sonic, marth, hell lets even put fox/falco/wolf/shiek in there), they usually can bait the pkfire out and respond. Because regardless of how you say its lagless, as a Ness player I can tell you, when you get to the ground there is some lag. The projectile commits you and is pretty easy to dash dance away from. If a character just pivots away and comes back and hits Ness, he loses control.
This is the true problem with Ness. It isn't that he doesn't have good moves. Its that he can't really get in on an opponent who controls space half decently. People like Link, Marth, or Zelda can give Ness a LOT of problems. A fox might have the same issues, because of fox's relative lack of range. But fox can move fast and engage an opponent at their weak angles. Ness can't.

Now, If Ness wants to kill before 130% against good DI, it should be considered a gimp/gimmick. Uair isn't nearly as strong as you say it is, bthrow when DI'd properly (which surprisingly doesn't happen NEARLY as much as you think it should) will kill after that point, bair kills around there. Before that, Ness can go off stage and wreak havoc and he's quite good at this, but with improved recoveries in PM, he can't count on it. But 130% isn't so bad for a kill if you can do the damage. The issue: Ness can't really combo that well and do the damage on most of the cast. Uair is his main combo move. it is not uncommon to fair, down throw -> fair regrab or uair -> uair if you can. The problem is that double uair usually doesn't work because his second jump is so damn slow.

That's why I htink he needs to have small adjustments made. With that said, I don't htink he's awful. I think people exaggerate that. But He definitely has very polarizing matchups because he can't really deal with certain opponents. I know you play ROB, Oracle. It's possible Ness actually does really well against ROB. I do know though that based on that GF's video, the matches Sethlon seemed to lose in the first 20 minutes (thats as far as I watched), were largely his fault. Bad decision making, risky moves, and mistakes all around. No one's perfect, obviously, but I really felt like he wasn't handling Ness right (which is ironic cause I thought they used to play eachother a lot).

Again, I know Awestin's your buddy and you all play together. But I think that video moreso shows how dependent Ness is on his opponents making mistakes than how dominating he is.

 

[The_NZA]

Partial jkz in a lot of that, just an fyi. lol

I dont know what to say to all this. Its all conjecture and doesn't address at all what I was saying. Your just saying...things....

 

[Oracle]

your response implies a really warped view on how ness works, and on how this game works in general. not to be offensive, but when you're ignoring ness's dash grab just on the basis that 'its a dash grab' even though it's one of the best grab moves in the game period, that says a lot about the way you're thinking about pm. furthering this conversation isn't going to prove fruitful before you have a major paradigm shift. PM me if you want a better explanation, but I think your lack of experience is making it harder for you to correctly contextualize ness's moves as good

awestin would body most of the 'top level' players of this game, and given the amount of time he puts into this game (not all that much) i think how well he does against top level players like me and sethlon says a lot about how good ness is. He has plenty of tools to succeed and doesn't get cheesed by any characters except in a few matchups, so i don't see a need to change him.

 

[Nausicaa]

Sounds like all Luigi discussions to date. hinthint

Nobody should have to play 'much' to perform at a 'top' level. There is enough tangible evidence in plain examples for it now, and more people are tapping into that.
Always good to hear there's more quality players in this game out of the common public spectrum, who aren't committing excessive time to it. It's happening more and more as time goes on, always a good sign.

<3 people.

In other news, not a single thing discussed has ever changed what is. Only what eventually becomes can be changed, and only because this is a mod we can change.
The experiencing of what is, without interpretation, brings freedom from what is. - Krishnamurti likes Smash.

1 match of smash is all a person will ever need, by a universal technicality, to be the best there is at smash. Whether one believes it, understands it, accepts it, or not.
Funny little things are said. Things are good to say.

 

[Kink-Link5]

[collapse=Bunni's 2.5b list version 2][collapse=A Class]
Top Tier
1. Fox
2. Zelda/Sheik
3. Falco
4. Sonic
5. Jigglypuff

Very High Tier
6. Pit
7. Wolf
8. Peach
9. Mario
10. Snake[/collapse]

[collapse=B Class]
High Tier
11. Diddy Kong
12. Charizard
13. Zero Suit Samus
14. Wario
15. Marth
16. Link
17. Lucas
18. Pikachu
19. Ike
20. Lucario
21. R.O.B.
22. Donkey Kong[/collapse]

[collapse=C Class]
Middle Tier
23. Toon Link
24. Bowser
25. King DeDeDe
26. Luigi
27. Captain Falcon
28. Zelda
29. Ivysaur
30. Ganondorf
31. Mr. Game and Watch
32. Squirtle
33. Ness[/collapse]
[/collapse]

Sonic went way up, ZSS went a little down, and DeDeDe went a little down. Toon Link, DK, DeDeDe, and Sonic are the only characters to move to a different tier. Sonic moved the most by far, after seeing enough of his bona fide bull****.

 

[leelue]

Middle tier
Bottom tier

 

[Kink-Link5]

Shhh leelue people don't like words like "low tier" to describe characters. No character is in a low tier this way.

 

[~Frozen~]

I noticed you grouped Zelda and Sheik together and then listed Zelda separately and not Sheik. Just a heads up.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Okay

2. Zelda/Sheik
3. Sheik

The implication behind the single listing is that using "Zelda/Sheik" is using Sheik with any amount of extra contribution from Zelda, including none. Zelda by herself is, Zelda by herself.

If Sheik is on screen for even a miniscule amount of time, I'd consider that hard and fast using the combination. It isn't the best use of the character, but it is using the character in some form. Would that it were, I'd not even have Zelda listed, but I feel the distinction is far enough away to include it.

 

[CyberZixx]

Who actually actively switches between them to warrant the shiek/zelda separate character listing? Honestly, I don't see how just staying sheik the whole time is not better anyway.

Edit: Why is Donkey Kong so low? I don't see how someone like Pikachu can be above him.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Zelda/Sheik covers that as well. It's basically the same as Melee's listing Sheik meaning switching to Zelda to recover is still using Sheik. It's the same listing as Sheik by a different name, essentially.