Almost like zelda mains understand the character more than you do, or something.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
It's the variable man. The first thought is basically whether you can use the move or not. Start of the match, your finger better be on that B button and you should either do Dins, or the Tapioca Dance (Neutral B). In neutral with space, first thought that comes to mind. Regardless of choice, you flow into #2.
Now some Zelda mains will probably say "That's a vast oversimplification of our character and you don't know jack about her". AND? It's god damn Zelda, she has a Roulette Wheel of like 6-7 different moves. Pick one and hope it works for your situation.
Now some Zelda mains will probably say "That's a vast oversimplification of our character and you don't know jack about her". AND? It's god damn Zelda, she has a Roulette Wheel of like 6-7 different moves. Pick one and hope it works for your situation.
Ripple
ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2006
- Messages
- 9,632
this is especially funny when you read it with Vash's voice
GunBlaze
Smash Lord
Just epic.
Burnsy
Smash Lord
Nayru's love is something of a panic button that I either see or hear Zelda mains mashing in between hits in a string. I'm not sure if Zelda herself is poorly designed, but that move certainly is.
So Dedede needs less irrelevant things in his kit.
Zelda could use more Roulette options in her kit.
What about these scrubs then?
Personal thoughts...
Toon Link, Zero Suit Samus, Luigi... I don't want these characters touched much at all, and don't think they need to be at all. As far as I'm concerned, people are insane to think they're weak at this point, and are going to figure out their madness soon enough.
With Falcon, maybe a more killer Up-B, and quicker off the ground so doing it OOS with that good hit-box BEHIND him will be somewhat scary... and fun.
Combos into it would be worth it then too. 64 brought back a bit, nostalgic purposes. Otherwise, it's not like he can't do what he needs to do. The flexibility that the changes bring already is a lot more significant than anyone seems to give credit.
Ganon is a niche character, he may not win a tournament or anything, but he's still fairly solid as far as functionality within his design. Redundancies are abundant though (Utilt lol).
Ness, I haven't played with him or against him any significant amount in 2.5 to know how much the changes impacted him. Seems solid enough, but won't bother until I start working with him.
Haven't worked with Squirt/Ivy and only played average players with them, but they have flaws that are apparent enough that I'm not sure how I would cover if I played them.
What are the thoughts on them, more specifically?
If you don't think they're 'not quite good enough' then is there anything about them, as they are, that has the potential to change that?
If not, what's 'not quite good enough' ABOUT them, but 'almost' and would a tweak to that be enough?
Why do people hate Pika so much?
Zelda could use more Roulette options in her kit.
What about these scrubs then?
If anything?
Personal thoughts...
Toon Link, Zero Suit Samus, Luigi... I don't want these characters touched much at all, and don't think they need to be at all. As far as I'm concerned, people are insane to think they're weak at this point, and are going to figure out their madness soon enough.
With Falcon, maybe a more killer Up-B, and quicker off the ground so doing it OOS with that good hit-box BEHIND him will be somewhat scary... and fun.
Combos into it would be worth it then too. 64 brought back a bit, nostalgic purposes. Otherwise, it's not like he can't do what he needs to do. The flexibility that the changes bring already is a lot more significant than anyone seems to give credit.
Ganon is a niche character, he may not win a tournament or anything, but he's still fairly solid as far as functionality within his design. Redundancies are abundant though (Utilt lol).
Ness, I haven't played with him or against him any significant amount in 2.5 to know how much the changes impacted him. Seems solid enough, but won't bother until I start working with him.
Haven't worked with Squirt/Ivy and only played average players with them, but they have flaws that are apparent enough that I'm not sure how I would cover if I played them.
What are the thoughts on them, more specifically?
If you don't think they're 'not quite good enough' then is there anything about them, as they are, that has the potential to change that?
If not, what's 'not quite good enough' ABOUT them, but 'almost' and would a tweak to that be enough?
Why do people hate Pika so much?
To be honest, it's hard for me, personally, to have judgements on pikachu. There's been some good tournament success with him, but the people winning with him were the same people doing well in the game where pikachu was D-tier, so it can't really say much.
Zelda is fantastic defensively, but her offense tends to stem *from* already defending. Like oh I defended with Usmash, cool I get another one. She reeks of that all day lol.
Out of TL ZSS and Luigi, Luigi should be touched more. The other 2 can vary up how they play to try and mitigate their weaknesses. Luigi's problems are very core to the character, almost regardless of MU. People have already explored creative ways to get around some of his flaws, like how far he slides from shielding. People already WD OOS after it gets hit, to help mitigate the massive pushback he receives. And people already WD forward with shield so that their momentum tends to neutralize from getting hit, instead of being pushed back so far. There's only so much people can do to overcome Luigi's problems, and I think we're close to the point of in depth exhausting those options. Where as ZSS and TL have better air mobility or better versatility on how they can handle certain problems. TL could use a slightly better ground game, but that's about it unless we want to revert Link/TL tether grab being ridiculous (which would be a bad idea).
Ness is like 50/50. Part of the problem is that he just doesn't combo people very hard. He has very good setups and his grab game is exceptional. Each one of his throws is useful, not many characters can honestly say that. But like, take Dthrow for instance. If you Dthrow a floaty, chances are you get a guaranteed hit regardless of DI. This would be VERY strong if that 1 hit turned into 50% because he went from Throw to Nair, to Fair, to Nair again, into Dair offstage. But it doesn't, On floaty people, he gets 1-2 hits and they fly away. Dthrow to Nair or Aerial of choice, and bam they are probably away from you. You may put them in a not awesome spot, like Dthrow to Uair and now they have to land safely, but it's just not as dominating as a character who can staple combo out of throws easily. Outside of his grab game, you don't have very solid ways of linking attacks together. Stuff like Fair to Grab or Fair to Nair heavily depends on DI, their character, their %, if they SDI, etc. He doesn't have easy (and bull****) setups to tack on 40-50% + offstage/tech chase/super bad position. What he has is like 2 hit wonders lol. The only outlier tends to be FF's because Uthrow and Uair will **** them, and bigger characters because "cheesy" stuff like Fair all day will work a lot better. Vs Peach, try coming up with more than a 2-3 hit combo. You will pull your hair out, he doesn't tend to have that kind of ****.
All that it means basically is that Ness is incapable of turning tiny mistakes into huge strings. He can try to do what nearly every character can, by getting someone offstage early on and go for a gimp, or get a hit or two after a throw, or go for a vertical juggle on FF's, but he doesn't just dominate people onstage. Once Ness's turn for the beatdown is over, the other character comes by and just does more. Better combos, better range, whatever it may be. He doesn't have comparable trade offs to keep people worried. Like Ness vs Marth would probably be a lot closer to even, if every time Ness touched Marth he could reasonably hope for 30-50%. Instead, he tacks on maybe 20 or MAYBE that 30% on a really good string, and then Marth swats the ever living **** out of poor Ness and he crumples.
He has a decent kit, that just doesn't mesh together in the Melee environment for laying the smackdown and doing big damage/big advantage. He has "this is a great move, but I wish it lead into 3 more moves". He has "this gets you off me and kills later on, but blows for comboing". Etc
PK fire is the tool people tend to use for getting damage, because if you eat the full or near full duration of PK fire, then get Dthrowed and Naired, THAT is the 40% you are looking for. But it tends to get predictable and can lose Ness valuable space if they dodge it (which is much easier for grounded characters to do by rolling into Ness, hint hint). PK fire, and Ness's kit overall is not that crappy. He just doesn't fit the mold of ridiculous Melee character. Ness makes sense as a character, he's just overshadowed by most of the cast.
Out of TL ZSS and Luigi, Luigi should be touched more. The other 2 can vary up how they play to try and mitigate their weaknesses. Luigi's problems are very core to the character, almost regardless of MU. People have already explored creative ways to get around some of his flaws, like how far he slides from shielding. People already WD OOS after it gets hit, to help mitigate the massive pushback he receives. And people already WD forward with shield so that their momentum tends to neutralize from getting hit, instead of being pushed back so far. There's only so much people can do to overcome Luigi's problems, and I think we're close to the point of in depth exhausting those options. Where as ZSS and TL have better air mobility or better versatility on how they can handle certain problems. TL could use a slightly better ground game, but that's about it unless we want to revert Link/TL tether grab being ridiculous (which would be a bad idea).
Ness is like 50/50. Part of the problem is that he just doesn't combo people very hard. He has very good setups and his grab game is exceptional. Each one of his throws is useful, not many characters can honestly say that. But like, take Dthrow for instance. If you Dthrow a floaty, chances are you get a guaranteed hit regardless of DI. This would be VERY strong if that 1 hit turned into 50% because he went from Throw to Nair, to Fair, to Nair again, into Dair offstage. But it doesn't, On floaty people, he gets 1-2 hits and they fly away. Dthrow to Nair or Aerial of choice, and bam they are probably away from you. You may put them in a not awesome spot, like Dthrow to Uair and now they have to land safely, but it's just not as dominating as a character who can staple combo out of throws easily. Outside of his grab game, you don't have very solid ways of linking attacks together. Stuff like Fair to Grab or Fair to Nair heavily depends on DI, their character, their %, if they SDI, etc. He doesn't have easy (and bull****) setups to tack on 40-50% + offstage/tech chase/super bad position. What he has is like 2 hit wonders lol. The only outlier tends to be FF's because Uthrow and Uair will **** them, and bigger characters because "cheesy" stuff like Fair all day will work a lot better. Vs Peach, try coming up with more than a 2-3 hit combo. You will pull your hair out, he doesn't tend to have that kind of ****.
All that it means basically is that Ness is incapable of turning tiny mistakes into huge strings. He can try to do what nearly every character can, by getting someone offstage early on and go for a gimp, or get a hit or two after a throw, or go for a vertical juggle on FF's, but he doesn't just dominate people onstage. Once Ness's turn for the beatdown is over, the other character comes by and just does more. Better combos, better range, whatever it may be. He doesn't have comparable trade offs to keep people worried. Like Ness vs Marth would probably be a lot closer to even, if every time Ness touched Marth he could reasonably hope for 30-50%. Instead, he tacks on maybe 20 or MAYBE that 30% on a really good string, and then Marth swats the ever living **** out of poor Ness and he crumples.
He has a decent kit, that just doesn't mesh together in the Melee environment for laying the smackdown and doing big damage/big advantage. He has "this is a great move, but I wish it lead into 3 more moves". He has "this gets you off me and kills later on, but blows for comboing". Etc
PK fire is the tool people tend to use for getting damage, because if you eat the full or near full duration of PK fire, then get Dthrowed and Naired, THAT is the 40% you are looking for. But it tends to get predictable and can lose Ness valuable space if they dodge it (which is much easier for grounded characters to do by rolling into Ness, hint hint). PK fire, and Ness's kit overall is not that crappy. He just doesn't fit the mold of ridiculous Melee character. Ness makes sense as a character, he's just overshadowed by most of the cast.
Oracle
Smash Master
fixed. honestly ridiculous stuff like that is why imo spacies need to be changed, but this is neither the time nor place. besides what do you know reflex? You can't even dash dance!
Vashimus
Smash Master
It's the snarkiness I find annoying...
The_NZA
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2007
- Messages
- 1,979
I have recommended so many things for Ness, but i'll try and consolidate it here. Obviously everything I post is my perception of the best way to design Ness:
What he is supposed to be: Ness is a fighterjet in the air. By design, he is supposed to have amazing aerial options and control, able to combo opponents with his uairs/nairs/fairs––create mixups with his instant dairs, and generally use his DJC to combo opponents and link hits really really well. On a secondary level, he has tricky gimmicks to keep his opponents off kilter. PKfire traps, pkflash comes out fast out of nowhere, and his upb shenanigans are great. By design, he is meant to be hindered by poor range, a lack of space control, and a lack of consistent kill options.
What he is: He is good at comboing some characters, by design––but against others, his aerial control is held back by slow jumps and poor range. You'll hit someone and try to double jump and hit them again to reach them, but usually they come out of stun before you can follow up. These two factors overpower his combo potential, which prevent him from linking aerial moves (weightclasses of people like sonic come to mind as problematic). His other weaknesses: He has no space control, poor tech chasing options, bad usmash/dsmash (luckily the bat was buffed by being aimable), a predictable recovery, and aerial movement that commits him into bad positions.
What can be changed:
Space control and range are meant to be an issue for Ness. But other characters who lack those things (notably fox) make up for it with sheer mobility. Mobility allows characters to assert control through movement, teasing out weak angles. This kind of approach is important for Ness because he can't abuse his opponents approach with a grab game, range game or projectiles. Pk fire helps a bit in this regard but its pretty niche with particular angles and startup.
My suggestion? Up Ness's mobility. This could happen by giving him a faster run speed or dash speed, but I see Ness as an aerial character first and foremost. My suggestion centers around his magnet. Wolf's magnet was entirely designed around his moveset and to an extent so was Lucas's. It is clear that Ness's was an afterthought, and I believe the way people are using it now is totally different then how the BR intended it. Most people are using it as an aerial wave dash––a hit box that can stop vertical altitude and move you horizontally through space to stall out an opponent's shield or give you tricky movement options. I think the BR should play with some variables to tailor this magnet for that purpose. I'm sure it can be used to give ness trickier and improved aerial momentum options––right now it feels a little stunted for that process. Its hitbox should also launch people up slightly up, seeing as thats the direction Ness like's comboing in.
Another suggestion would be to speed up Ness's second jump. It's so slow that ledge options become pretty bad, and the whole linking combos problem against characters like sonic gets even worse. If it was faster, we could actually follow up on opponents in hit stun.
On his recovery: I think his poor recovery is part of his identity. It is nice that you upped the distance––it makes going after opponents off stage much more satisfying. However, having your pkthunder collide with an opponent resulting in sure death still sucks for everyone. I sort of wish Ness didn't go into special fall if his pk thunder cancels out. There is no real reason for that design and it is frustrating when you lose a game because your pk thunder hit a shyguy or some bull****. If his pkthunder hits himself, he should go in special fall but otherwise there isn't really a reason. Maybe if you want hugging ness as a gimp to be viable, you could make it so he has cooldown before he can upb again, but give the kid a chance. Either that, or speed pk thunder up. That way, he can also start using it as an on stage approach
.
Lastly,
I think Ness's aerials are perfectly crafted but his usmash and dsmash lack purpose. As in I don't think many Nesses on the forums even use them. Dsmash can occasionally be used as an edge guard but its less reliable than most of his other options. Usmash has better knockback angles than it used to but its still kind of hard to hit with. Something needs to be down with these two moves to make them worth a damn.
What he is supposed to be: Ness is a fighterjet in the air. By design, he is supposed to have amazing aerial options and control, able to combo opponents with his uairs/nairs/fairs––create mixups with his instant dairs, and generally use his DJC to combo opponents and link hits really really well. On a secondary level, he has tricky gimmicks to keep his opponents off kilter. PKfire traps, pkflash comes out fast out of nowhere, and his upb shenanigans are great. By design, he is meant to be hindered by poor range, a lack of space control, and a lack of consistent kill options.
What he is: He is good at comboing some characters, by design––but against others, his aerial control is held back by slow jumps and poor range. You'll hit someone and try to double jump and hit them again to reach them, but usually they come out of stun before you can follow up. These two factors overpower his combo potential, which prevent him from linking aerial moves (weightclasses of people like sonic come to mind as problematic). His other weaknesses: He has no space control, poor tech chasing options, bad usmash/dsmash (luckily the bat was buffed by being aimable), a predictable recovery, and aerial movement that commits him into bad positions.
What can be changed:
Space control and range are meant to be an issue for Ness. But other characters who lack those things (notably fox) make up for it with sheer mobility. Mobility allows characters to assert control through movement, teasing out weak angles. This kind of approach is important for Ness because he can't abuse his opponents approach with a grab game, range game or projectiles. Pk fire helps a bit in this regard but its pretty niche with particular angles and startup.
My suggestion? Up Ness's mobility. This could happen by giving him a faster run speed or dash speed, but I see Ness as an aerial character first and foremost. My suggestion centers around his magnet. Wolf's magnet was entirely designed around his moveset and to an extent so was Lucas's. It is clear that Ness's was an afterthought, and I believe the way people are using it now is totally different then how the BR intended it. Most people are using it as an aerial wave dash––a hit box that can stop vertical altitude and move you horizontally through space to stall out an opponent's shield or give you tricky movement options. I think the BR should play with some variables to tailor this magnet for that purpose. I'm sure it can be used to give ness trickier and improved aerial momentum options––right now it feels a little stunted for that process. Its hitbox should also launch people up slightly up, seeing as thats the direction Ness like's comboing in.
Another suggestion would be to speed up Ness's second jump. It's so slow that ledge options become pretty bad, and the whole linking combos problem against characters like sonic gets even worse. If it was faster, we could actually follow up on opponents in hit stun.
On his recovery: I think his poor recovery is part of his identity. It is nice that you upped the distance––it makes going after opponents off stage much more satisfying. However, having your pkthunder collide with an opponent resulting in sure death still sucks for everyone. I sort of wish Ness didn't go into special fall if his pk thunder cancels out. There is no real reason for that design and it is frustrating when you lose a game because your pk thunder hit a shyguy or some bull****. If his pkthunder hits himself, he should go in special fall but otherwise there isn't really a reason. Maybe if you want hugging ness as a gimp to be viable, you could make it so he has cooldown before he can upb again, but give the kid a chance. Either that, or speed pk thunder up. That way, he can also start using it as an on stage approach
.Lastly,
I think Ness's aerials are perfectly crafted but his usmash and dsmash lack purpose. As in I don't think many Nesses on the forums even use them. Dsmash can occasionally be used as an edge guard but its less reliable than most of his other options. Usmash has better knockback angles than it used to but its still kind of hard to hit with. Something needs to be down with these two moves to make them worth a damn.
NightShadow6
Smash Journeyman
I just hope charizard doesn't get any changes. He feels so perfect.
Oracle
Smash Master
Yeah especially his nair nothing wrong with that move
JOE!
Smash Hero
Would you rather he have a zards sized shine?
D
Deleted member
Guest
First of all, the idea that anybody would find Melee Zelda so much more fun to play as is just silly. If you hate Din's Fire so much that you disregard it, you'd still end up using a much improved Melee Zelda (who didn't use Din's Fire either). I have no idea what character you think you're playing if you believe differently.
People who haven't invested much time in the character are trying to tell us how they think Zelda should play in order to make the character more fun for them. And it's painfully obvious that no matter what is done to her, she's never going to be one of your favorite characters because of her being a slower, more defensive character, which is something that's not going to change.
It's insulting to suggest that the few people who have put actual effort into the character should be disregarded in favor of the opinions of people who are never going to be maining her anyway. If you don't want "snarkiness," then try a different approach.
Shall I repeat what I've said already?
People who haven't invested much time in the character are trying to tell us how they think Zelda should play in order to make the character more fun for them. And it's painfully obvious that no matter what is done to her, she's never going to be one of your favorite characters because of her being a slower, more defensive character, which is something that's not going to change.
It's insulting to suggest that the few people who have put actual effort into the character should be disregarded in favor of the opinions of people who are never going to be maining her anyway. If you don't want "snarkiness," then try a different approach.
Do you feel the same thing would apply in relation to Sonic?
D
Deleted member
Guest
I'm one of the few people who was trying to stand up for parts of Sonic's design because I'm afraid of him being overnerfed in the future.
I've yet to hear someone talk about Luigi as if they have any idea what a good Luigi looks like.
People WD OOS stuff to mitigate push-back, and that's a weakness/strength to the character? This isn't even a factor I would ever consider regarding Luigi.
It seems everyone neglects the fact that he has a great DD game (DD Grab/Pivot Tilts/WD included for whatever). Time and again, people talk about Luigi as if he's linear and immobile in any practical sense. It's as if nobody bothers learning how to move with the character. I've heard only a couple dozen people worth noting become like-minded over the course of the years, that Luigi players would be better (Luigi would be understood more) if they stopped 'Wavedashing because they could Wavedash' and started playing a normal game. This applies even more-so to Project: M. Avoid all things that won't work in time, at all costs, and the depth of meta-game will actually come out.
If people stop sitting around using SH double aerials, stop WDing out of any decent spacing, stop challenging things with attacks int he neutral game and Nair out of hit-stun and forced aerials at the end of combos, and start playing a good neutral game, bait game within combos, vortex concepts, and basically everything that every other character does, he'd be seen as a beast.
It's really not hard, but nobody is bothering to do it. That is all.
No offense to the common public Luigi, but he's further behind meta-game than Pikachu, and Pikachu isn't a turd, but remains unpolished at the bottom of the barrel even by PM AND Melee together standards.
Edit: The_NZA
His Down and Up Smash are plenty useful. I abuse his D-Smash with Pivots, and generally anything that comes out quickly behind a character is useful.
U-Smash helps juggles and covers enough area/duration to be functional as it is.
All this stuff doesn't even matter.
People WD OOS stuff to mitigate push-back, and that's a weakness/strength to the character? This isn't even a factor I would ever consider regarding Luigi.
It seems everyone neglects the fact that he has a great DD game (DD Grab/Pivot Tilts/WD included for whatever). Time and again, people talk about Luigi as if he's linear and immobile in any practical sense. It's as if nobody bothers learning how to move with the character. I've heard only a couple dozen people worth noting become like-minded over the course of the years, that Luigi players would be better (Luigi would be understood more) if they stopped 'Wavedashing because they could Wavedash' and started playing a normal game. This applies even more-so to Project: M. Avoid all things that won't work in time, at all costs, and the depth of meta-game will actually come out.
If people stop sitting around using SH double aerials, stop WDing out of any decent spacing, stop challenging things with attacks int he neutral game and Nair out of hit-stun and forced aerials at the end of combos, and start playing a good neutral game, bait game within combos, vortex concepts, and basically everything that every other character does, he'd be seen as a beast.
It's really not hard, but nobody is bothering to do it. That is all.
No offense to the common public Luigi, but he's further behind meta-game than Pikachu, and Pikachu isn't a turd, but remains unpolished at the bottom of the barrel even by PM AND Melee together standards.
Edit: The_NZA
His Down and Up Smash are plenty useful. I abuse his D-Smash with Pivots, and generally anything that comes out quickly behind a character is useful.
U-Smash helps juggles and covers enough area/duration to be functional as it is.
D
Deleted member
Guest
And to make it clear, I don't think Zelda is amazing in P:M. I think there is room for a lot of improvement, improvement that doesn't involve drastically altering how one of her more defining moves functions just because people who probably haven't picked her up for more than half an hour don't think it's "fun"
Zelda is good, very well designed (move specifics) and not currently something that needs to be worried about (entire game design wise, like sonic.)
well, having melee kicks would be fine though.
personally, i don't mind that she doesn't get much talk.Cause I always get ticked off at people hatin' on Zelda.
well, having melee kicks would be fine though.
personally, i don't mind that she doesn't get much talk.
What I mean is that people have to go through great lengths to try and get around weaknesses Luigi has. Other characters can WD OOS after a shield hit, but it's usually not to stop a butt load of momentum, it's to get a bit closer for the punish. Luigi's shield pushback is a weakness and to address it, people already try things like WDing out of it to stop the momentum. That's not irrelevant because Luigi misses out on a lot of "normal" punishes the cast can get OOS because he slides back so far.
Luigi's airspeed is a blatant problem and holds back the character in quite a few areas. He doesn't need to move as freely as Jiggs or Wario, but a little somethin somethin would be good.
People need to play Luigi more grounded and consider walking more. I dunno about your pivot ideas, but yes people need to not be caught too much in movement as Luigi. Poking with Luigi is muy hard: if you WD in and try Ftilt, your momentum is likely to carry you into the person for an easy shield grab or punish. Maybe if your spacing is good, you can do a tiny WD forward and then Ftilt. I really dunno about DD Pivot tilts or blah blah. Sounds like a good idea for being in place, but not for actually approaching the other character. Like those suggestions sound a lot better for walling or stuffing the opponents approach than being used as an actual approach or threat. If Luigi is DDing in place, then I basically am glad that he's not trying to close the gap. I don't want Luigi in my face, he can sit out there on FD center and DD all he wants. If he is gaining ground, then move forward and shield, or walk forward if your character has great poking. Now the bar has been raised ya know? Like to get inside of people's range quicker, Luigi basically uses movement boosts. Either from WD or from the less common Down B. Walking and even running at someone with Luigi can give you more options for tilts and for not being in WD lag, but it's also a slower process and he's still worried about better range while walking up close. IF you believe that Luigi, out of a DD or walk, can be precise enough to reliably try and get past Marth Sheik etc, then I would at that point advocate playing a character with better options and better movement out of a DD because they could do it more capably than Luigi could. The kind of gameplay skill that would take would be massive, and may not even be enough to get past a defensive character/strat with range.
What is the line of the Luigi metagame being low because players just don't get it, and Luigi metagame being low because Luigi as a character just isn't that capable? Because I don't think people are playing him at 20% competency for example. People are missing things with him, but not to the point that he shoots up as a strong character. Like WD forward and doing spotdodge, with the WD momentum still moving you. People may not use that totally optimally, but what difference would that actually make on the grand scale of things? People may not pivot tilt or DD as well as they could, but honestly how much would that change the character? Put him in the same league as Ike and Lucario? Nay. Out of TL ZSS and Luigi, he's probably the worst. I'd actually bet on that someday in the future, maybe not now because people don't do optimal ZSS combos that give her a giant lady peepee.
He's a fine character once he gets inside and goes to work. The process of getting there is not fun, and there are MU's that basically hinge on baiting them to swing/swat first as a mistake and then you punish. Which is hard to accomplish the higher you go up, as the person will be less willing to "just" throw out the attack if they can wait a bit longer.
Luigi's airspeed is a blatant problem and holds back the character in quite a few areas. He doesn't need to move as freely as Jiggs or Wario, but a little somethin somethin would be good.
People need to play Luigi more grounded and consider walking more. I dunno about your pivot ideas, but yes people need to not be caught too much in movement as Luigi. Poking with Luigi is muy hard: if you WD in and try Ftilt, your momentum is likely to carry you into the person for an easy shield grab or punish. Maybe if your spacing is good, you can do a tiny WD forward and then Ftilt. I really dunno about DD Pivot tilts or blah blah. Sounds like a good idea for being in place, but not for actually approaching the other character. Like those suggestions sound a lot better for walling or stuffing the opponents approach than being used as an actual approach or threat. If Luigi is DDing in place, then I basically am glad that he's not trying to close the gap. I don't want Luigi in my face, he can sit out there on FD center and DD all he wants. If he is gaining ground, then move forward and shield, or walk forward if your character has great poking. Now the bar has been raised ya know? Like to get inside of people's range quicker, Luigi basically uses movement boosts. Either from WD or from the less common Down B. Walking and even running at someone with Luigi can give you more options for tilts and for not being in WD lag, but it's also a slower process and he's still worried about better range while walking up close. IF you believe that Luigi, out of a DD or walk, can be precise enough to reliably try and get past Marth Sheik etc, then I would at that point advocate playing a character with better options and better movement out of a DD because they could do it more capably than Luigi could. The kind of gameplay skill that would take would be massive, and may not even be enough to get past a defensive character/strat with range.
What is the line of the Luigi metagame being low because players just don't get it, and Luigi metagame being low because Luigi as a character just isn't that capable? Because I don't think people are playing him at 20% competency for example. People are missing things with him, but not to the point that he shoots up as a strong character. Like WD forward and doing spotdodge, with the WD momentum still moving you. People may not use that totally optimally, but what difference would that actually make on the grand scale of things? People may not pivot tilt or DD as well as they could, but honestly how much would that change the character? Put him in the same league as Ike and Lucario? Nay. Out of TL ZSS and Luigi, he's probably the worst. I'd actually bet on that someday in the future, maybe not now because people don't do optimal ZSS combos that give her a giant lady peepee.
He's a fine character once he gets inside and goes to work. The process of getting there is not fun, and there are MU's that basically hinge on baiting them to swing/swat first as a mistake and then you punish. Which is hard to accomplish the higher you go up, as the person will be less willing to "just" throw out the attack if they can wait a bit longer.
Vashimus
Smash Master
For the record, I couldn't care less with what they do with Zelda, whether they change her or leave her alone. I was merely commenting on the snarkiness of Zelda mains in general.
...Well that doesn't make it sound less bad. Lol
B.W.
Smash Champion
this thread has gotten so far off the topic of discussing what's good about a tier list and more of "this character is badly designed" thread.
Can we get back to talking about who is better than who and why plz? If we want a thread about players complaining about character designs then make a new one.
That said, Zelda's a cool character, it's just her Din's Fire isn't all that useful imo. Its uses are incredibly situational. Tbh the biggest reason I like Din's Fire for is for covering her when she recovers. Floating forward + making a wall = really good addition to recovery.
Can we get back to talking about who is better than who and why plz? If we want a thread about players complaining about character designs then make a new one.
That said, Zelda's a cool character, it's just her Din's Fire isn't all that useful imo. Its uses are incredibly situational. Tbh the biggest reason I like Din's Fire for is for covering her when she recovers. Floating forward + making a wall = really good addition to recovery.
leelue
Smash Lord
Vashimus
Smash Master
Eli's Luigi is pretty gahlike. Along with every other character.
Good and yes, but I'll go into some detail on a few things.
This is basically directly in line with what I was saying, in that I've yet to hear people talk about the character in a way that they understand top level Luigi at all. Understandable though, and no offense if that sounds mean.
People shouldn't be trying things with Luigi if those things don't work, (just like any character wouldn't).
Whether it's trying to force a punish on something with a WD OOS, or even just considering missing those 'normal' punishes and instead getting 'not normal' punishes as something negative about the character. He escapes things differently (shield sliding), gets different punishes (WD speed), but there's just as many ways of punishing him for shielding things, and just as many ways for him to punish others for shielding things. It's just different, no difference in goodness/badness.
If anything, I find it trickier to navigate around simple things like Fox lasers or basic projectiles, not safely, that's easy, but in a standardized/methodical way. Since they force the WD if you shield (stops momentum in its tracks if anything touches a shield mid-slide) which has a lot of excess distance to it, so doesn't allow safe approach by conventional means if leaving the shield at a greater distance than 'normal' characters.
^ That's where I see your point mostly applied as a negative.
Most of the sliding/shield game completely counter-acts itself (along with Shield-Pressure > Punishes in general) with the way he doesn't really have to be in those situations nearly as much as others, as his speed (OOS too) allows him to bait with Shield/whatever from further away than 'normal' anyway.
It's irrelevant in any advantage/disadvantageous way. Luigi has options OOS as much as anyone from Peach to Marth, all 3 of their OOS options (from all distances) aren't parallel at all. This is where the misunderstanding comes in. One of them is considered to have none (or little) because they're unconventional compared to the rest of the cast, and literally not developed in the public knowledge base, no matter how much commonly it's accepted as 'known'.
If the majority of the cast functioned like Luigi from Day 1 Melee, then Falcon-style would be the out-cast of Melee, and underdeveloped to due obscurity. Guaranteed.
I'd really rather not intellectualize this stuff, or go into character specifics (this is the longest endless tunnel EVER lol) but whatever. One more time. haha
If you WD > Walk backward (for literally even a single Frame) in PM, your momentum is halted entirely.
Nobody should be getting shield-grabbed as Luigi anymore than any other character, if so, that's simply poor play. Hence the rest of your post, and how he shuldn't be WDing all over and over-extending everything. That's like saying other character have difficulty getting shield grabbed because they over-extend SH Aerials. It's essentially irrelevant in actual proper play into you get into variables like intentionally screwing up an opponents spacing with your own maneuvering (this could be argued 'against' Luigi, since the most common way of doing this is DD Shield > OOS option, which Luigi may lack since it's such a close-quarters thing that usually implies 'barely' punishable things from the opponent in the first place).
Spacing stuff is harder with 10 frames of going infinite mph, if the player isn't using this for what it is, and tries forcing stuff that way all day. It's 10 frames of super speed and should be treated that way, AKA should be treated as something that will over-extend if used improperly.
WD Forward > Dash Back > Pivot Ftilt is something I've only known 2 Melee players to actually apply to Luigi's game, and it's a core part of his game that the common public seems to simply avoid/ignore. Approaching with it is as fine as WD Ftilts, maybe a couple frames slower, but essential to his game. It's just more reason I consider Melee Luigi to be the most difficult (mainly due to obscurity/uniqueness that translates to being foreign technical/mental concepts to the game) character to play in any Smash game to date. Many others consider this as well when they bother learning the character to any decent extent beyond BnB stuff.
He has a great DD that most Luigi mains (and players) seem to avoid, oddly, but understandably (Dat WD!), and neglect, as well as amazing Pivoting tools. His neutral game is actually as strong as it gets in the Melee cast, and it's even better in PM. Unless this is understood, then the Luigi-insight is lacking. Again, no offense, this just is, but I can't really explain this any non-pompous way so I understand if you 'judge' this as being rude and ignorant or something. I can wait, it's been a long wait already.
Down-B sucks. lol
It's best use (aside from recovery) is slightly altering his fall timing to hopefully avoid/counter-hit an attempted swipe at him when he's caught in the air. Rarely is it the best option anywhere else, from tech-chasing to whatever.
Marth-style movement involves a mix of WD's and DD's, etc. Luigi's is the same. The combination of the 2 implies Luigi (or Marth) should really never be DDing in place, or approaching at a frame-disadvantage. This, again, goes back to people not playing Luigi in a way that makes him work. Nothing more.
He can get 'past' (not that getting 'past' a character is something Luigi should be trying to do anymore than anyone else...) Marth/Sheik isn't a problem. Don't get hit, #1 priority. Luigi's troubles come from getting, hitting people is easy. Especially with the things you WANT to hit them with.
People are missing something, they know they're missing something, yet... this is implying that people know that what they're missing has certain qualities. They're missing it, so how do they know the qualities of what they're missing?
This is so contradictory, and so common. Not just for Luigi.
It's awesome, and I love people for it. <3
Me included.
The 'case', as is constantly argued, is that it's not enough. I simply know it to be enough (others do to) so it's really just a waiting game.
I'll simply see if it comes before he's over-buffed. That's all. In the meantime, these discussions have funny circles.
/end the rant for the billionth time.
This is basically directly in line with what I was saying, in that I've yet to hear people talk about the character in a way that they understand top level Luigi at all. Understandable though, and no offense if that sounds mean.
What I'll say here is kind of obvious, but anyway.
People shouldn't be trying things with Luigi if those things don't work, (just like any character wouldn't).
Whether it's trying to force a punish on something with a WD OOS, or even just considering missing those 'normal' punishes and instead getting 'not normal' punishes as something negative about the character. He escapes things differently (shield sliding), gets different punishes (WD speed), but there's just as many ways of punishing him for shielding things, and just as many ways for him to punish others for shielding things. It's just different, no difference in goodness/badness.
If anything, I find it trickier to navigate around simple things like Fox lasers or basic projectiles, not safely, that's easy, but in a standardized/methodical way. Since they force the WD if you shield (stops momentum in its tracks if anything touches a shield mid-slide) which has a lot of excess distance to it, so doesn't allow safe approach by conventional means if leaving the shield at a greater distance than 'normal' characters.
^ That's where I see your point mostly applied as a negative.
Most of the sliding/shield game completely counter-acts itself (along with Shield-Pressure > Punishes in general) with the way he doesn't really have to be in those situations nearly as much as others, as his speed (OOS too) allows him to bait with Shield/whatever from further away than 'normal' anyway.
It's irrelevant in any advantage/disadvantageous way. Luigi has options OOS as much as anyone from Peach to Marth, all 3 of their OOS options (from all distances) aren't parallel at all. This is where the misunderstanding comes in. One of them is considered to have none (or little) because they're unconventional compared to the rest of the cast, and literally not developed in the public knowledge base, no matter how much commonly it's accepted as 'known'.
If the majority of the cast functioned like Luigi from Day 1 Melee, then Falcon-style would be the out-cast of Melee, and underdeveloped to due obscurity. Guaranteed.
Everyone has their quirks. Somebody has to be the most mobile, someone the fastest, some one the slowest, someone the smallest, Luigi gets his extreme. It's good too, cause his aerial game is already good for not being able to move. lol
Yes.
I'd really rather not intellectualize this stuff, or go into character specifics (this is the longest endless tunnel EVER lol) but whatever. One more time. haha
If you WD > Walk backward (for literally even a single Frame) in PM, your momentum is halted entirely.
Nobody should be getting shield-grabbed as Luigi anymore than any other character, if so, that's simply poor play. Hence the rest of your post, and how he shuldn't be WDing all over and over-extending everything. That's like saying other character have difficulty getting shield grabbed because they over-extend SH Aerials. It's essentially irrelevant in actual proper play into you get into variables like intentionally screwing up an opponents spacing with your own maneuvering (this could be argued 'against' Luigi, since the most common way of doing this is DD Shield > OOS option, which Luigi may lack since it's such a close-quarters thing that usually implies 'barely' punishable things from the opponent in the first place).
Spacing stuff is harder with 10 frames of going infinite mph, if the player isn't using this for what it is, and tries forcing stuff that way all day. It's 10 frames of super speed and should be treated that way, AKA should be treated as something that will over-extend if used improperly.
WD Forward > Dash Back > Pivot Ftilt is something I've only known 2 Melee players to actually apply to Luigi's game, and it's a core part of his game that the common public seems to simply avoid/ignore. Approaching with it is as fine as WD Ftilts, maybe a couple frames slower, but essential to his game. It's just more reason I consider Melee Luigi to be the most difficult (mainly due to obscurity/uniqueness that translates to being foreign technical/mental concepts to the game) character to play in any Smash game to date. Many others consider this as well when they bother learning the character to any decent extent beyond BnB stuff.
He has a great DD that most Luigi mains (and players) seem to avoid, oddly, but understandably (Dat WD!), and neglect, as well as amazing Pivoting tools. His neutral game is actually as strong as it gets in the Melee cast, and it's even better in PM. Unless this is understood, then the Luigi-insight is lacking. Again, no offense, this just is, but I can't really explain this any non-pompous way so I understand if you 'judge' this as being rude and ignorant or something. I can wait, it's been a long wait already.
Down-B sucks. lol
It's best use (aside from recovery) is slightly altering his fall timing to hopefully avoid/counter-hit an attempted swipe at him when he's caught in the air. Rarely is it the best option anywhere else, from tech-chasing to whatever.
Marth-style movement involves a mix of WD's and DD's, etc. Luigi's is the same. The combination of the 2 implies Luigi (or Marth) should really never be DDing in place, or approaching at a frame-disadvantage. This, again, goes back to people not playing Luigi in a way that makes him work. Nothing more.
He can get 'past' (not that getting 'past' a character is something Luigi should be trying to do anymore than anyone else...) Marth/Sheik isn't a problem. Don't get hit, #1 priority. Luigi's troubles come from getting, hitting people is easy. Especially with the things you WANT to hit them with.
I like this sentence, and it kind of explains the rest.
People are missing something, they know they're missing something, yet... this is implying that people know that what they're missing has certain qualities. They're missing it, so how do they know the qualities of what they're missing?
This is so contradictory, and so common. Not just for Luigi.
It's awesome, and I love people for it. <3
Me included.
I've never had this problem, and if anything, I've found him to be more capable of 'getting in' at a top level than most. He's too fast and has too much range for this ever to be an issue, unless it's simply not top level play that's being referred to, or applied poorly in a non-optimal way, as you've mentioned, is the case for Luigi.
The 'case', as is constantly argued, is that it's not enough. I simply know it to be enough (others do to) so it's really just a waiting game.
I'll simply see if it comes before he's over-buffed. That's all. In the meantime, these discussions have funny circles.
/end the rant for the billionth time.
leelue
Smash Lord
Ok so I admit that I skimmed that encyclopedia you wrote bamesy, but I agreed with what I caught.
I don't think he needs more aerial mobility. I like the extremes when they aren't polarizing, and I don;t think this is one of those things that's polarizing (thanks to his ground speed).
Eli's... luc... ario is prety bad btw
I don't think he needs more aerial mobility. I like the extremes when they aren't polarizing, and I don;t think this is one of those things that's polarizing (thanks to his ground speed).
Eli's... luc... ario is prety bad btw
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Her Melee fair and bair hitboxes are literally just worse in Project M.
I should spoiler stuff more. My bad.
A bit on Luigi discussion/direction of discussions.
Also, Leelue.
It's very rare that someone reads what I post, let alone understands it, let alone agrees with it, let alone about Luigi. lol
Regarding Eli (and others)
I've been enjoying knowing Eli has picked him up to a decent extent, and a lot of that is because I know others will get some clarity about the character, etc. Just like you've just expressed that you're getting from the direct experience of it. Eli has joined a good movement, in a way, and an exclusive club really. haha
He's still new though, don't forget that. There's still a lot to come from him, and I'm liking how it's going and excited to see what comes from it/what's coming from it. Much room to grow, much. Not saying it's not great already, just saying that of what I've seen, and what I know, from him and others in similar shoes, or more ancient shoes, there's a lot of dots to connect still, a LOT. Regardless of how ****ing **** it might seem to you/others like you already.
This has been an on-going 'issue' for many years, but that critical mass is about to hit, I hope/am sure of it, and it'll tip the scales for the public understanding soon enough.
Eli is doing a good service for a good cause. Others around him like yourself as well. <3
Regarding what you expressed, and the difference between the way you understand what I wrote now vs how you would have understood it a year ago
Just as you were doing for Sonic, it's helping Luigi... but watch out for thinking you/others may know the 'end' of it, as this is often harmful.
Just like I feel you did with Sonic a while ago (no offense/don't mean to bring up our old discussions if you had hard-feelings about them).
Maybe you see it differently now, or don't see that at all that way, but I've seen it too much to NOT bring it up about Luigi NOW, especially that we're on this topic/that I've seen you and others express this type of thing.
From your own direct experience with Sonic... given how much discussion we had between us (with me saying Sonic had punishing tools to be aggressive/offensive, and being good, with you saying the opposite), I really hope you're more open to this type of discussion and at least see where I was coming from looking back with SONIC, and where I'm coming from with LUIGI looking forward.
Luigi has a lot more to offer than Eli has ever shown you (just like I was trying to show that Sonic had a lot more to offer than you expressed), so I really hope this keeps up and it doesn't slow down at all. The character is better than anyone seems to imagine, and he's been shunned for way too long for ANYBODY'S good. Longer than any other character in the history of Smash. lol
I really felt it was a shame the way you fought with what I shared, but I learn a lot from our discussions on how to communicate this stuff with people.
So thanks for that, even if there may have been harm there regarding the development of a character's meta-game from it... which I know for a fact was a result. haha
Hopefully it translated to helping Luigi's cause a little more. lol
I just wish this could come by other means, as it takes a lot longer than it has to.
Bringing back the Melee sweet-spots on Zelda would make me like her a lot more.
She's cool, but her Dtilt confuses me too much to use... I think I have to work with her more. Too brief of a Zelda stint. </3
Bdubs, is there one of these for Smash?
http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/
Find it, and I'll make the BEST ONE EVER for you...
Then we can discuss it, together, forever.
A bit on Luigi discussion/direction of discussions.
Also, Leelue.
It's very rare that someone reads what I post, let alone understands it, let alone agrees with it, let alone about Luigi. lol
Regarding Eli (and others)
I've been enjoying knowing Eli has picked him up to a decent extent, and a lot of that is because I know others will get some clarity about the character, etc. Just like you've just expressed that you're getting from the direct experience of it. Eli has joined a good movement, in a way, and an exclusive club really. haha
He's still new though, don't forget that. There's still a lot to come from him, and I'm liking how it's going and excited to see what comes from it/what's coming from it. Much room to grow, much. Not saying it's not great already, just saying that of what I've seen, and what I know, from him and others in similar shoes, or more ancient shoes, there's a lot of dots to connect still, a LOT. Regardless of how ****ing **** it might seem to you/others like you already.
This has been an on-going 'issue' for many years, but that critical mass is about to hit, I hope/am sure of it, and it'll tip the scales for the public understanding soon enough.
Eli is doing a good service for a good cause. Others around him like yourself as well. <3
Regarding what you expressed, and the difference between the way you understand what I wrote now vs how you would have understood it a year ago
Just as you were doing for Sonic, it's helping Luigi... but watch out for thinking you/others may know the 'end' of it, as this is often harmful.
Just like I feel you did with Sonic a while ago (no offense/don't mean to bring up our old discussions if you had hard-feelings about them).
Maybe you see it differently now, or don't see that at all that way, but I've seen it too much to NOT bring it up about Luigi NOW, especially that we're on this topic/that I've seen you and others express this type of thing.
From your own direct experience with Sonic... given how much discussion we had between us (with me saying Sonic had punishing tools to be aggressive/offensive, and being good, with you saying the opposite), I really hope you're more open to this type of discussion and at least see where I was coming from looking back with SONIC, and where I'm coming from with LUIGI looking forward.
Luigi has a lot more to offer than Eli has ever shown you (just like I was trying to show that Sonic had a lot more to offer than you expressed), so I really hope this keeps up and it doesn't slow down at all. The character is better than anyone seems to imagine, and he's been shunned for way too long for ANYBODY'S good. Longer than any other character in the history of Smash. lol
I really felt it was a shame the way you fought with what I shared, but I learn a lot from our discussions on how to communicate this stuff with people.
So thanks for that, even if there may have been harm there regarding the development of a character's meta-game from it... which I know for a fact was a result. haha
Hopefully it translated to helping Luigi's cause a little more. lol
I just wish this could come by other means, as it takes a lot longer than it has to.
Bringing back the Melee sweet-spots on Zelda would make me like her a lot more.
She's cool, but her Dtilt confuses me too much to use... I think I have to work with her more. Too brief of a Zelda stint. </3
Bdubs, is there one of these for Smash?
http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/
Find it, and I'll make the BEST ONE EVER for you...
Then we can discuss it, together, forever.
The_NZA
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2007
- Messages
- 1,979
lol, I'm sorry this topic actually has a purpose rather than a knowledgeless purposeless jerkoff fest.
EDIT: that was harsh. It just seems a tier discussion when there are few consistent tourney results yet or large tourneys to begin with is less productive than a conversation about character design, the good and bad. Tiers will always be determined by results, and there aren't that many yet all around. This topic was, therefore, designed to discuss good and bad character design and in a community mod, it totally makes sense in that conversation to talk about poor skillsets that ought to be brought up to snuff.
The_NZA
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2007
- Messages
- 1,979
Maybe his metagame hasn't caught up but i'd refer you here
http://smashboards.com/threads/yo-yo-tricks.334246/
I'd also argue DJC bairs are just as fast, more mobile and all around better than a pivot dsmash. The usmash i'll admit has some uses.
That was my bad.
I accidentally brought up some genuinely interesting questions I had, and articulated them in a way that could be discussed in depth.
Actually, screw Dedede, it was that lump of crap's fault!
Edit: We never did come up with a conclusion to that either. So, is Dedede officially hopeless and needs a tweak?
On another note...
If a character is seemingly really good, how do you beat them?
If a character is seemingly really bad, how do you win with them?
THAT is proper tier discussion, and the only thing of value that will EVER come from tier-discussion of ANY form. Everything from the modding aspects to whatever stems from this.
Everything else is improper, redundant, irrelevant, useless, and every other pathetic term one can think of... aside from the fact that it's incredibly entertaining.
Harsh? Naw, it's truth, truth is never harsh, that defies the meaning of it and it wouldn't then be true.
I'll check that out.
Not if you're looking to screw up someone's DI and send them off-stage after a Ledge-Jump WL on.
But yeah, Pivot DJC Bairs are too high-tech for me still. When I pick him (or Lucas) up seriously, sure, but for now, I never do that with Peach, and I even mess up Falcon PSHFFLCBairs, and I've been doing that for a lot longer than PM's lifespan. lol
Maybe that whole Down-B aerial turn-around thing will smooth it out/make more people actually try this stuff too. Pivots rock. Everybody hates the poor things though.
B.W.
Smash Champion
There is not, but you could probably just screencap that chart and have the pictures of the characters of the Brawl portraits and just put them on the chart with MS Paint or something.
Talks about matchups would move things a little more forward than complaining about how bad a character's design and how much you want the PMBR to change the character, which I have seen plenty of discussion on.
This thread is supposed to be about 2.5 and where people think characters stand as they are and why.
What better way of doing that...
This is helping tier-list discussion more than I think you're giving it credit.
Somebody wanna tackle this then?
http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/
I'm not, I'm lazy and incompetent at life.
Than this?
This has a lot to do with design, etc, but design talk in a mod will naturally gravitate to modding the character more. lol
This is helping tier-list discussion more than I think you're giving it credit.
Somebody wanna tackle this then?
http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/
I'm not, I'm lazy and incompetent at life.
The thing about people "knowing" what they are missing, is that you may not know exactly the impact but it's likely you could gauge it in a relative sense. Like take the idea of approaching someone with Luigi, by jumping over their heads and trying to land or counter with Down B. It sounds silly at first, but how many people can honestly say they have sat there for a few weeks, 2-3 hours a day practicing that very strategy vs the cast? I haven't sat there and done it extensively, but I can tell you without a thousand hours of experience at doing it that it looks janky as hell and probably shouldn't work. At that point though, you could just say I'm someone of the mass who's just avoiding what they "think" is bad, and that people should actually pour that precious time into the Luigi Down B Sky Approach because it's fleshing out the character and there might be some potential in it. There are plenty of things like that for other characters, and without a ton of time put into it you can still come to a decent conclusion. The only time it matters is when it's something actually useful, which is subjective but I'd say about half of what you bring up fits situational instead of missed fundamentals/staples.
SpiderMad
Smash Master
- Joined
- May 6, 2012
- Messages
- 4,968
Now how do we get them to add Brawl/P:M
D
Deleted member
Guest
As the former best zelda player in the world, i absolutely love melee zelda and PM zelda does nothing for me.