Tier List Speculation

[CyberZixx]

I don't think Marth is that good to be #6 on the tier list. He has much worse stage control than in melee and getting kills is harder for him as well.

 

[Oro?!]

K, he kills you when he touches you. Why you gettin touched?

 

[Plum]

I've found Marth to still be very effective. Yeah, not quite as strong as in Melee, but I don't think any of the new characters really give him too much trouble if any at all.

 

[The_NZA]

To speak on DDD, i'd like to repost what i put in the character idea thread.

People are generally agreed that DDD is low tier. I would love to hear his problems and how to make him better. In seeing some DDD players, I think his main problem is that everyone in PM (bowser included) can combo to an extent, and DDD functions much like a Brawl player in a smash game. I think his comboability could be improved if his Upb could be canceled into an aerial similar to Bowser's downB. This would allow ddd to chase enemies vertically from the ground to combo them. However, I understand this can pose an issue in making his recovery too safe (sonic often gets flack for having too good a recovery since he can attack and airdodge out of his upb). To solve this, I think it would be cool if DDD goes into special fall or can't grab onto edges after he cancels his upb with an attack (maybe he keeps descending with the same rate as if he were on his way down with his upb)

 

[trash?]

Maybe have it so the up-b cancelled into other stuff only occurs when you do it on the ground? At the same time, it could still have issues, because Bowser's downb cancels are nutty as is, and DDD's gets a huge amount of height by comparison.

 

[The_NZA]

But I mean, doesn't he need it? And wouldn't that fit into his identity of a heavy character that comes up after you and falls down fast on you with massive hitbox's, good gimp game, and grab game?

EDIT: what you said about him needing to be grounded could also work.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Well, Dedede's Up-B startup isn't particularly short or anything. I think if it didn't put people in SpecialFall upon canceling it, but took away any remaining double-jumps, it could create a nice balance between extra options and extra risk associated with it in most situations.

 

[DMG]

Neither of these are *slightly*

Both of those are slight (as far as misfire goes), in that it's still not 100% guaranteed improvement. Being able to punish with Misfire is assuming you have one stored. Which is unlikely unless you've been using it before in the match, and it's not a move you can just throw out both recovery and punish wise if you aren't gonna get the misfire. Being able to grab the edge with Side B is a good step, but a bit fickle. I dunno how much height I was normally getting in Melee from cyclone, but in PM it feels ****in huge. Not needing to charge it once onstage is also huge, so recovery decently improved but punishing onstage literally boils down to whether misfire or not.

I don't think Marth is that good to be #6 on the tier list. He has much worse stage control than in melee and getting kills is harder for him as well.

Marth is only worse off because offstage has become lamer. People recovery much better, meanwhile his recovery is the same linear and people edgeguard a bit better. Onstage he's perfectly fine. He's suffered arguably the least onstage compared to other Melee High tiers. Look at what Jiggs Peach Falcon Ganon have to deal with onstage lol. Meanwhile, big johnson sword, grab range, and ground mobility still keep Marth relevant. What's ****in crazy is people putting MARIO above him or trying to lol.

K, he kills you when he touches you. Why you gettin touched?

Luigi surprising momentum can catch people off guard. Catching a fast faller at mid % with Down B is best feeling #1. But even that can be managed with experience.

I've found Marth to still be very effective. Yeah, not quite as strong as in Melee, but I don't think any of the new characters really give him too much trouble if any at all.

^^^ Been saying that for awhile. Not many of the Brawl characters challenge Marth or force him to play differently. Sonic maybe, but no one else does.

 

[Scythe]

Am I the only that thinks that DDD is fine? He's probably around mid tier and pretty underrated. If he got buffed to the point that he was top tier that would just be lame : /

 

[DMG]

Fun idea of the day: Make airborne Side B like Kirby's hammer, without sucking

DDD has some decent tools, but stuff doesn't mesh well together unless you are offstage or if they are FF. If the other person is floaty and onstage, you literally have maybe like 1 combo? All of your moves force people away decently. Maybe Nair to Uair will work, or Bair to Bair. He's like Bowser, without some of the power and defense.

Grab/game: great grab, above average grab game

Overall range: quite good

Edgeguarding: above average, sometimes completely lethal and limiting HAVE YOU SEEN FAIR LADIES AND GENTLEMEN

Recovery: dookie

Weight/Size: Bad **** happens to him, deal with it

Defensive options up close: if it doesn't involve grab, it's probably Bair or a tilt. Don't get caught in shield if grabbing won't work


GG put Dedede in like 25-28th

 

[CyberZixx]

Does not matter if they don't make him play different as playing the same is not effective as it was in melee. As you said the offstage game hurts marth. He gets edgeguard real hard by some characters while his gimping edgeguard style is not as effective in this game. Due to the recovery's themselves and the new ledge mechanics making people snap to them easier. Because he can't reliably gimp many characters in general people live higher agianst marth. As we know once you get 150% plus Marth has issue's killing you.

This is made even worse for Marth by the larger stages in Project M. It's not like melee where 3 of the 5 legal stage's he can control the majority of entire stage at any given time. I don't think Marth is all that threating on a stage like SSE: Jungle or Rumble falls.

 

[The_NZA]

Reflex, do you think DDD should be able to air dodge after upbing and canceling with an aerial?

 

[trash?]

He's bowser, but with none of the goofy things that make bowser horrifying to play against.

I just want a consistent side-b out of DDD, honestly. Having a life-or-death situation come out of pure RNG luck isn't fun to deal with.

 

[The_NZA]

Fun idea of the day: Make airborne Side B like Kirby's hammer, without sucking

DDD has some decent tools, but stuff doesn't mesh well together unless you are offstage or if they are FF. If the other person is floaty and onstage, you literally have maybe like 1 combo? All of your moves force people away decently. Maybe Nair to Uair will work, or Bair to Bair. He's like Bowser, without some of the power and defense.

Grab/game: great grab, above average grab game

Overall range: quite good

Edgeguarding: above average, sometimes completely lethal and limiting HAVE YOU SEEN FAIR LADIES AND GENTLEMEN

Recovery: dookie

Weight/Size: Bad **** happens to him, deal with it

Defensive options up close: if it doesn't involve grab, it's probably Bair or a tilt. Don't get caught in shield if grabbing won't work


GG put Dedede in like 25-28th

I could imagine his neutral b being this...or just improving his sucking. Like, what does that move really fulfill? A spinning hammer could give him a quick move that could link into his aerials, giving him a bit more breathing room and comboability. I could imagine it having certain frames acting as a pika tail spin semispike.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I dunno; I don't think I'm qualified to suggest significant buffs and nerfs there, as I haven't played with the character as or against enough to feel I have a great grasp on the overall effectiveness of his recovery. That said, my initial impression suggests that he could use some changes, and it just seems like aerials after a canceled Up-B would make him more fun to play as without giving him crazy amounts of unpredictability.

I don't think that being able to airdodge after such a thing would be bad. If it were tried, I'd like for him to have that option, sure.

 

[The_NZA]

I dunno; I don't think I'm qualified to suggest significant buffs and nerfs there, as I haven't played with the character as or against enough to feel I have a great grasp on the overall effectiveness of his recovery. That said, my initial impression suggests that he could use some changes, and it just seems like aerials after a canceled Up-B would make him more fun to play as without giving him crazy amounts of unpredictability.

I don't think that being able to airdodge after such a thing would be bad. If it were tried, I'd like for him to have that option, sure.

Yeah, for those reasons I thought of the whole upb cancel thing. My friend plays ddd and its not really fun to play against him...it feels like i'm playing brawl, i'm getting poked a couple times and dying to my own mistakes––not because my opponent has a ton of character knowledge or is zoning particularly well. But he is good at those things...i just think DDD isn't (but is supposed to be).

I personally hate the air dodge after up-b thing and I think it makes recovery way too safe. In the case of sonic/snake, I really wish they had more landing lag when air dodging or something. Given DDD's insanely fast falling speed, I think if he could fast fall after upb->aerial, he'd be able to get to the ground fast enough to be safe. He probably doesn't need an air dodge to try and waveland at the end or have invulnerability. Just my opinion.

How does the BR feel about his sucking/spitting? What purpose does it actually fulfill?

 

[Ripple]

DDD needs his old spot dodge back. I don't understand why they slowed it down

possibly a better shield too but IDK. I only say this because I get shield poked by fox's upsmash a lot after a nair>shine> nair

 

[DMG]

It fulfills the Kraft Cheese option

Where the dinosaur comes to your home and sprays everything with Processed American Cheese

 

[leelue]

Lol wow convergent design

I just mentioned ddd being a posterboy for more upb canceling options today.

 

[The_NZA]

Lol wow convergent design

I just mentioned ddd being a posterboy for more upb canceling options today.

Call me the master planner. I incepted you in that thread and I incepted everyone in this one.

*intermingles fingers dastardly*

 

[leelue]

Bwaaaahhhhhhmmmffff
Bwaaaahhhhhhmmmffff
You had one job
Bwaaaahhhhhhmmmffff

 

[Juushichi]

A spacing/grab character making you die to your own mistakes?

Good lord, can't have that.

 

[The_NZA]

A spacing/grab character making you die to your own mistakes?

Good lord, can't have that.

Haha, no i agree that Dedede is really good at exploiting mistakes. I just feel bad that in his curent incarnation, thats all he can do.

 

[leelue]

And ftilt, bro
Btw ddds ftilt is one of my favorite moves in the game. It gives him range that he can't really follow up on except when edgeguardimg for the most part. I think that's awesome.
Now if only we had more moves or movesets with the Roy philosophy, I'd be happy.

 

[Oro?!]

zss might be a more polarizing character than fox and falco are

I forgot to respond to this, but I certainly feel that there are characters that fit this concept much more heavily. Charizard is my prime example. Not many matchups seem remotely even for Charizard. Given this is mostly from minor play time, and watching/playing Metroid's zard extensively, he feels more like a "gimmick" character. Zard has really strong options that might completely stuff entire characters movesets in addition to having the 4th fastest run speed and the ability to handily 0-death a majority of the cast.

I bring this up because I believe ZSS has very very strong options vs fatties, but they are not unbeatable. In fact there is major counterplay to all of her stronger options in that she has no rewarding grab game against extremely heavy characters (exluding terrible DI) and is highly CCable outside of DSmash/blaster. I won't refute she beats fatties, and beats some of them BADLY, but I don't like to think of it as a polarizing set of matchups.

 

[Nausicaa]

Even average Zard's can make it really difficult for my Pika, I just can't deal with that match-up unless I abandon the majority of what I consider any ideal game-plan Pika would have against others. The match-up is wacky, and obnoxious. Nair disables any cross-ups in close-quarters, I can't grab the giant thing, Ftilt and Jab stuff faces, even his Dash Attack is tough to deal with since I want to get close but can run out of room with any conventional positioning maneuvers, so it's often simply a good guess/push attempt by Zard. Turns into weird platform camping and seriously precise pokes.
I'd just change characters given how long those matches end up taking. It's completely do-able, and probably still a fairly even match-up, but so uncomfortable/not what anyone would be playing Pika for.

She has like three moves that are meant to kill. Fair is a crapshoot, bair requires high precision on her bizarrely tall SH, and F-smash has startup comparable to Ike's.

ZSS couldn't kill... until this happened...

Also DAIVU KIIKKU

Down-B, as far as I'm concerned, is by far (not even comparable how much better it is) her best kill move.
Chain aerials towards the edge of a stage > Nair them off > Down-B chase them off and Dive Kick them.
Dtilt/Ftilt/Dash Attack/anything that pokes them enough to be off/near the edge of a stage at mid-%, Down-B off and Dive Kick them.
Edge-guard with it too... Down-B > Dive Kick, from the ledge if you're crazy/wall jump if you're stylish/stage if you're just getting the hang of it so it's easy aiming and you're higher up for recovering.

The thing cancels np, np, so it's not like you're at risk doing something so fast that you can return to the ledge from even faster, that hits out at a nice horizontal angle with good priority and mobility to top it off...
Seriously, other kills moves aren't even worth trying most of the time.

When Strong Bad said polarizing, I was thinking in different terms.
In that, much like the Pika vs Zard thing, she either forces the opponent to play drastically differently than any conventional ways the character normally would, or has to drastically change the way she plays to deal with certain characters.
It might be the same thing as 'Good/Bad match-ups' but I've found it to be more 'Great/Little differences' in the match-ups.
Fortunately, most characters (including herself) are extremely flexible, makes the game fun and deep.
Smash is good. Project: M is good.


Dedede...
I think everyone missed the initial reason I brought him up...

1) Are there any other characters that people think fall in the same category as him? Characters that seem just... not 'quite' good enough?

2) Is there anything that might give some hope to Dedede being 'good enough' as he is now, that may be missing?

3) Suggestion stuff...

He's bowser, but with none of the goofy things that make bowser horrifying to play against.

He needs something scary.

I really don't think, or want, this to come from something like OOS options, or more mobility or air maneuvering... otherwise this happens.

If he got buffed to the point that he was top tier that would just be lame : /

What does he have now that's scary? What does he have now, that WOULD be scary but just doesn't quite cut it?
He's linear, centralized on certain things, and this is fine. It CAN work, somehow, maybe.

Before jumping ship and throwing something new on him, surely something can be done within his current framework that might prove sufficient.
Something simple enough, like increasing all of his hit-box radius's by 5% or something (even Ftilt/Grab lol) might even give enough of a difference to be scary enough.
Personally, I find my game with him gravitates to a few things that work, but they just don't work well enough to compete at the level he's 'trying' to. It's almost 2.1 Zard syndrome, where he has all these nice tools, they just don't finish the job. All Zard got was the tools improving, not new tools.
Think of it like Falcon from Melee to PM. How would you buff him? Remake Falcon Punch to be a significant part of his game, or give him more flexibility with what he has by being able to Side-B to the ledge, opening up edge-play he already had as a CORE of his game?

Dedede doesn't need a rework or something too significant to alter his design. He's centralized on functional stuff, it's just not functional enough/has holes to fill elsewhere. This doesn't mean something added, it means something filled.
Hopefully the Project: M Back Room knows the difference, it's distinct enough. I trust them, but for now...


tl;dr
This could go in the Dedede boards, but it's probably more beneficial coming from others, given the 'scariness' factor of Dedede (that's lacking) is felt not by him, but his opponents.

What do WE do with Dedede AS HE IS that can make him work better?
What does he have AS HE IS that could be touched to work better?
What other characters need help?
No 'help' as in, they need 'touching up' immediately.
Instead, 'help' as in, they seem weak, is there anything we might be missing/we can do?

True tier-list discussion, in other words.

Edit: As Dedede, I basically end up just throwing people off the stage and Ftilt/Aerial/re-Throwing them. Otherwise, Uthrow into Uair/Dair/Nair/Down-B... hopefully leading off-stage or into another grab, is the alternative.
Aside from that, I don't even think anything else does more than take up space. At least, nothing seems like it would, as people start to get better at playing against Dedede, I just don't see anything else being good enough to bother doing, eventually.
This could be fine, but maybe a tweak or range would make this work better. Not bigger knock-back, I like the softness of him, but something to make him an approaching cloud of death-fluff, rather than a ball of fluff blowing in the wind.

ZSS has to run for her life against Pika. Looks like her and those Pokes have a nice threesome of CP's going... If I read that correctly in that people think she beats 'fatties' which would include Zard.


Editedit: Though aerials after Up-B would be fun, it would still be nice to not go that direction. Centralize and polarize him instead, and he might actually work out fine. lol

Anyone who thinks Luigi isn't good enough to win a world-scale tournament without any major hurdles worth mentioning, is out-dated as of day ONE of 2.1.
There, I said it.

 

[DMG]

She can outspace Pika in the air. Any Fair approach loses clean to Nair and tends to lose to Bair (height is weird though). On the ground they both feel a bit awkward, but I'd give her the edge there likely. If Pika gets too close and she can't respond with anything good, then she can get in trouble. Mostly from meh non jab options up close under pressure, and basically no OOS game. I don't think Pika is an obvious CP to her.

 

[Nausicaa]

Pika can dictate when stuff happens in that match-up, which is where the difference comes in. He's not a CP, he simply gets to play his game and she can't really slow him down from it. Even those exchanges, he doesn't really have to commit to aerials at her, while the anticipation to stop them comes from her end. He can get grounded easily against her, and isn't really threatened by her on the ground. Any grab/mix-up game by her is pretty nullified, so a lot of it really comes down to her simply trying to over-power and almost force offense on Pika, otherwise he just kind of takes over the stage.

There was a tad discussion about this idea between her and Fox, but she can actually do some things to limit and kill Fox, whether it's gimps, chases, or grabs and lasers in the neutral game. Against Pika, he's too shifty with everything from recovery to Dtilt/Grab/Aerial pokes, that she really doesn't have much of a direct answer since her grab/aerial game just won't cut it, so avoiding them until she gets a good read is actually (so far this is where it seems to be going) optimal play from her. It works, but it's not her normal style.

Edit: His offense on her is pretty smooth aside from simply the neutral game too. Everything from getting her in the air, off-stage, not letting her down safely, edge-guarding, transitioning defense to offense.
She has to be careful. Do-able, maybe not a CP (but very possible), just an awkward game for her a lot more than for him/it.

 

[Rat]

Wolf's really ****in good.

 

[DMG]

Sometimes...

Did shield pushback get fixed btw? Random question that came to mind, because Wolf actually loves that to make certain things safer on shield.

 

[Ripple]

Sometimes...

Did shield pushback get fixed btw? Random question that came to mind, because Wolf actually loves that to make certain things safer on shield.

I don't think it did because I was really mad when I went to a tournament 2 weeks ago and I couldn't grab a fox up-smash on my shield when I was DDD

 

[9bit_alt]

Some random DDD ideas for improvement:

• A Warrio-like running grab (animation could be similar to dash attack for mixups)
  • And/or change his nuetral-B to suck opponent into a grab hold (and probably make it faster to start up)
• Standing Up-B (on the ground) does something else. Sorta like Link/TL have. This will also help his OoS game and give his Up-B a reason to ever be used
• Increase all or most of his hitbox radii like Oro suggested (can you imagine the Fairs!?)
• A perfectly-timed Up-B cancel (perhaps using the L-cancelling timing) should have less landing lag
• Eating your own Waddles with neutral-B heals you a little, or you can spit them at opponents as stars (or both: hitting Down on control stick would eat and absorb)
• If you smack your Waddle and it flies into the opponent, they should take damage / knockback
• Ability to use up additional jumps while holding Down-B hammer
• Using diagonal-down on control stick while holding Down-B hammer allows backwards walking
• Change exhale trajectory on neutral-B to facilitate better comboing out of it

I do like the idea of being able to act out of Up-B like Snake and Sonic, but I'm fine with it how it is now. Though I would like to be able to cancel out of it using L or R (basically any shield or grab buttons) in addition to just Down. Sometimes when I push down, apparently I also slightly push in a direction, because I somehow end up facing the wrong way :o

 

[Oro?!]

ZSS CPs Pika because I said so. See how lovely that works?

 

[B.W.]

Other idea for a possible added tool?

Make the end frames of Side-B able to cancel into Neutral-B, so that you can inhale Waddles quickly.

Also

Make Waddles spittable into slightly more powerful but short ranged stars (if possible).

Also-also

Make it so Dedede very rarely throws food that heals a significant amount (not like the stupid small amounts food items tend to heal but not too great an amount either) sometimes and make his food throwing distance short (within range of his Inhale). Coupled with the ability to cancel his Side-B into B he should have no problems picking it up unless the opponent was on top of his ****.

The food idea because Waddles shouldn't heal you, that's stupid and cannibalism is wrong... Even though Waddles are Waddles and Dedede is a penguin...

 

[leelue]

Yeah, the thing I want for DDD is to have my recovery even more faulty by being able to throw more things I can't waddledash into.

 

[traffic.]

I'd like to waddle her dees if you know what I mean.

 

[leelue]

Oh traffic
you canadan

 

[The_NZA]

Some random DDD ideas for improvement:

• A Warrio-like running grab (animation could be similar to dash attack for mixups)
  • And/or change his nuetral-B to suck opponent into a grab hold (and probably make it faster to start up)
• Standing Up-B (on the ground) does something else. Sorta like Link/TL have. This will also help his OoS game and give his Up-B a reason to ever be used
• Increase all or most of his hitbox radii like Oro suggested (can you imagine the Fairs!?)
• A perfectly-timed Up-B cancel (perhaps using the L-cancelling timing) should have less landing lag
• Eating your own Waddles with neutral-B heals you a little, or you can spit them at opponents as stars (or both: hitting Down on control stick would eat and absorb)
• If you smack your Waddle and it flies into the opponent, they should take damage / knockback
• Ability to use up additional jumps while holding Down-B hammer
• Using diagonal-down on control stick while holding Down-B hammer allows backwards walking
• Change exhale trajectory on neutral-B to facilitate better comboing out of it

I do like the idea of being able to act out of Up-B like Snake and Sonic, but I'm fine with it how it is now. Though I would like to be able to cancel out of it using L or R (basically any shield or grab buttons) in addition to just Down. Sometimes when I push down, apparently I also slightly push in a direction, because I somehow end up facing the wrong way :o

I like ALL of these suggestions. Like 100% of them. Although I also think his game would benefit a lot by grounded up-bs replicating bowser's down b (really fast, small startup, can be acted out of).

 

[The_NZA]

I'd like to waddle her dees if you know what I mean.

That's either a D and a D, a DD DD...but a DDD? That aint normal, yo.

 

[leelue]

Two triple ds