Bones0
Smash Legend
None of his moves last for more than a few frames except nair. The Tail stays out for quite a while allowing you to consume massive amounts of space at once.Marth's entire moveset is a Tail that cuts through faces
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
The moves that lead into combos (in general terms) tend to send people away a bit too far at killing %'s. Like a low % Nair or Bair that you can lead into a vertical juggle or grab or xyz, you can't do that at 70-80% into Fsmash or Usmash/Upb generally. Vertically he does fine, but horizontally if you need to space against someone in Neutral there's not a ton out there that leads easily to death, that is also smart and viable to just toss out in Neutral (I don't agree with Dtilt for example, not that it would be expected or super easy to counter but I don't see that landing very often or how someone would be pressured into getting hit by it). Stuff like Bair Nair Ftilt would tend to send people away just a bit too far for the kill, and even though you've relieved the pressure and possibly gotten them offstage, he doesn't scream easy kill in those kinds of scenarios of throwing out the Nair/other option.
I think that's the hardest approach angle for him to deal with as far as obtaining a kill goes, because the usual responses are fine for protecting him generally but not great for also turning into a kill somehow. If someone SH's or approaches horizontally, and it's not feasible to get the Utilt or launch, that person could then try to play scenarios where even if he is getting punished, it's not from getting grabbed or launched (which would lead into death easier than a random Nair or Bair at 70). On the flip side, TL going after someone also might find those horizontal moves to be the most effective approach or spacing, if grabbing bombing or landing a vertical orientated move isn't as viable. He's just overall not that great at turning horizontal conflicts and approaches into something deadly, and I think that's a flaw people can take advantage of more. Bombs are a tool to try and supplement his below average capabilities in that area, and if those are not working well or if they can't be pulled, it can feel like a big struggle.
I think that's the hardest approach angle for him to deal with as far as obtaining a kill goes, because the usual responses are fine for protecting him generally but not great for also turning into a kill somehow. If someone SH's or approaches horizontally, and it's not feasible to get the Utilt or launch, that person could then try to play scenarios where even if he is getting punished, it's not from getting grabbed or launched (which would lead into death easier than a random Nair or Bair at 70). On the flip side, TL going after someone also might find those horizontal moves to be the most effective approach or spacing, if grabbing bombing or landing a vertical orientated move isn't as viable. He's just overall not that great at turning horizontal conflicts and approaches into something deadly, and I think that's a flaw people can take advantage of more. Bombs are a tool to try and supplement his below average capabilities in that area, and if those are not working well or if they can't be pulled, it can feel like a big struggle.
*starts a TL hate thread*
If we all pretended there was only 1 criteria, being 'good enough' or 'not quite good enough' then who would be the 'not quite' characters?
Sure some characters probably won't be winning big tournaments on their own, but they can still be 'good enough' in that they're functional much of the time.
As far as I can tell, Dedede is the only one that I can't see being good enough to fit in with the rest of the cast. Like, he doesn't even feel functional, too linear, no flexibility. If it weren't for a decent grab and a couple tiny things, he'd be a pylon. I can't even manage as well as other characters in Doubles as him. He seems to have the worse qualities of a Bowser/Ivy/Snake combo mixed together.
Can anyone show/explain/help me out with this? I have hope for every character but him, and I don't really have any inspiration to bother working with him anytime soon as there's been nothing really intriguing about him worth my time that I couldn't learn/better from by playing more fundamental of diverse characters. Perhaps working linearly and limited is something I need to work on, but this still troubles me.
He always came across as 'soft' feeling in Brawl, I never played much at all, but he always reminded me of something soft and plushy, and that feel always seemed to play a factor for him. Out-of-place giant floater.
Aside from him, I'd be content if nothing else was touched to any decent extent for a long time. Everyone has SOMETHING to work with, but I can't figure it out for the big guy.
It's been this way since month-1 of Demo 2.1, and won't budge anymore than reconfirming my initial thoughts. :/
Help/inform/insight me forumers?
If we all pretended there was only 1 criteria, being 'good enough' or 'not quite good enough' then who would be the 'not quite' characters?
Sure some characters probably won't be winning big tournaments on their own, but they can still be 'good enough' in that they're functional much of the time.
As far as I can tell, Dedede is the only one that I can't see being good enough to fit in with the rest of the cast. Like, he doesn't even feel functional, too linear, no flexibility. If it weren't for a decent grab and a couple tiny things, he'd be a pylon. I can't even manage as well as other characters in Doubles as him. He seems to have the worse qualities of a Bowser/Ivy/Snake combo mixed together.
Can anyone show/explain/help me out with this? I have hope for every character but him, and I don't really have any inspiration to bother working with him anytime soon as there's been nothing really intriguing about him worth my time that I couldn't learn/better from by playing more fundamental of diverse characters. Perhaps working linearly and limited is something I need to work on, but this still troubles me.
He always came across as 'soft' feeling in Brawl, I never played much at all, but he always reminded me of something soft and plushy, and that feel always seemed to play a factor for him. Out-of-place giant floater.
Aside from him, I'd be content if nothing else was touched to any decent extent for a long time. Everyone has SOMETHING to work with, but I can't figure it out for the big guy.
It's been this way since month-1 of Demo 2.1, and won't budge anymore than reconfirming my initial thoughts. :/
Help/inform/insight me forumers?
JayMan-X
Smash Apprentice
i feel like Dedede is Juuuuust barely good enough to not be unplayable. I feel like hes not that horrible, its just that he has quite a few horrendous matchups that are really painful for him. Anyone with a good Dashdance or decent mobility really hurts him imo.
But then, any character that's down to his speed he can do ok. Any character with below average recoveries get edgeguarded HARD by Dedede . Isn't DDD v DK like 80-20 in Dedede's favor or something?
But then, any character that's down to his speed he can do ok. Any character with below average recoveries get edgeguarded HARD by Dedede . Isn't DDD v DK like 80-20 in Dedede's favor or something?
Back when 2.1 Ike was a deal, DDD was considered a go-to counter. The fact that an Ike player who got 2nd the tourney before lost to Fly playing him kind of showed that. Now, though, he... doesn't really have much. I guess he's even better against Ike now, though? Who knows.
That was back in brawl, when DDD had a goofy infinite chaingrab that he could land really easily on DK.
SpiderMad
Smash Master
- Joined
- May 6, 2012
- Messages
- 4,968
I'm not sure you're getting it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Te6WkqQfSmc&list=FLYf-qQybWKZ36R3E07KuQFg&index=877
Oro?!
Smash Hero
I could argue or post videos all day about how ZSS has possibly a matchup spread of a top tier, and the only reason she is not top tier material is because of her harshest matchups (all 5-6 difficult ones) belonging in top tier, but no one would listen to me anyways.
#unviable
#unviable
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
ZSS has a very well rounded matchup spread. She absolutely destroys some characters like Charizard, loses hard to Fox, and has a middling spread among other characters. Impressions at this point in time anyway.
She just has the finickiest time getting kills. She has like three moves that are meant to kill. Fair is a crapshoot, bair requires high precision on her bizarrely tall SH, and F-smash has startup comparable to Ike's.
She just has the finickiest time getting kills. She has like three moves that are meant to kill. Fair is a crapshoot, bair requires high precision on her bizarrely tall SH, and F-smash has startup comparable to Ike's.
Vashimus
Smash Master
Doesn't sound too different from her current situation in Brawl.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Except she doesn't really lose to any character in Brawl. Unless you really want to stretch that soft counters are straight up losing matchups. Going even with Olimar, Ice Climbers, AND MK is not a small feat.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,550
zss might be a more polarizing character than fox and falco are
Vashimus
Smash Master
I know, I agree with you. It was directed at Oro (should've quoted). From what I've heard, Marth was getting a lot of crap since people feel he isn't top 5 anymore in Brawl while ZSS should've been.
leelue
Smash Lord
In opinions I assume? Maybe.
I still wish she spawned with an armor piece....
I still wish she spawned with an armor piece....
Giygacoal
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2011
- Messages
- 1,651
Because she has both good MUs and bad MUs or because there's parties that think she's overpowered or just decent or bad? I don't know much about ZSS...
Oro?!
Smash Hero
She murders fat characters to an extent that is very unfair. Except zard...
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,550
yeah this is what im talking about. she poops on a lot of good chars and gets destroyed by other good chars. polarizing.
Oro?!
Smash Hero
Doesn't matter because no one pays attention to the character.
#unviable
#unviable
Oracle
Smash Master
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Shoutouts to Overswarm logic.
ZSS Usmash is gawd mode. Like I haven't fully explored how well people can handle it with SDI, but barring that it's really strong and useful.
You don't want to be floaty or big vs ZSS. You may have a hard time getting down safely with the combination of Usmash Uair Upb.
You can remedy the kill situation sometimes with Dsmash/B shot or comboing into Side B. Against a lot of characters, as long as she isn't blatantly SHing at them, she can toss out Side B and be safe regardless. A decent setup if you have the space being a dash cancelled B shot into whatever height Side B you want, or just in general a ton of options out of the dash. RAR Bair, Usmash if they go high for whatever dumb reason, SH Nair, etc. Up close she's not too shabby either, although you don't want to be stuck in shield it gets bad.
I thought she was weird at first, but I'm starting to see how stuff connects and what times you might need running momentum vs stationary to keep up. More Usmash, less Dair, gg
You don't want to be floaty or big vs ZSS. You may have a hard time getting down safely with the combination of Usmash Uair Upb.
You can remedy the kill situation sometimes with Dsmash/B shot or comboing into Side B. Against a lot of characters, as long as she isn't blatantly SHing at them, she can toss out Side B and be safe regardless. A decent setup if you have the space being a dash cancelled B shot into whatever height Side B you want, or just in general a ton of options out of the dash. RAR Bair, Usmash if they go high for whatever dumb reason, SH Nair, etc. Up close she's not too shabby either, although you don't want to be stuck in shield it gets bad.
I thought she was weird at first, but I'm starting to see how stuff connects and what times you might need running momentum vs stationary to keep up. More Usmash, less Dair, gg
leelue
Smash Lord
I find the ability to never be less than 25 feet above this character disturbing.
Ok, so maybe she's not zero use samus
Ok, so maybe she's not zero use samus
B.W.
Smash Champion
Also DAIVU KIIKKU
leelue
Smash Lord
You have any idea how long it took for me to understand you
leelue
Smash Lord
It's not even tomorrow, Dwane
leelue
Smash Lord
Also, I'm mad that I'm getting wrecked by such a low tier character
misfire
misfire
misfire
oh watch out you got grabbed
up b
misfire
misfire
misfire
oh watch out you got grabbed
up b
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Stop letting Eli get away with aerials from a character that can't even properly shuffl, leelue.
I feel like Luigi is a lot better than people say.
I don't play Luigi, but just looking at him I can't see how he is that mediocre.
Misfire and Up B combos are too stronk
I don't play Luigi, but just looking at him I can't see how he is that mediocre.
Misfire and Up B combos are too stronk
I mained luigi for the longest time, he's horrrrrrrible. A majority of his better combos can be DI'd out of fairly easily, not to mention actually getting those moves to hit in the first place is an absolute hell.
Honest question: when I played him, I always tried to get his dtilt to have some use. Knowing this: is there any actual use for it? The damage doesn't really justify having no good options after you use it.
Honest question: when I played him, I always tried to get his dtilt to have some use. Knowing this: is there any actual use for it? The damage doesn't really justify having no good options after you use it.
Oro?!
Smash Hero
Luigi is going to have the same matchup problems as melee except he has a slightly better recovery and punish game. There are probably a whole slew of brawl characters that destroy him as well though.
standardtoaster
Tubacabra
it's basically a 15% jab reset with mr saturn sfx. pwah
Oro?!
Smash Hero
It's her worst move by far.
Oro?!
Smash Hero
UpB serves the same multi-hit anti air purpose, but is also longer and actually has tech chase/combo potential.
Grounded upB reaches the top platform of Battlefield.
Grounded upB reaches the top platform of Battlefield.
I think U-Smash's better horizontal coverage can make it situationally useful.
But I want them to stay in the air!
Upb does have some cool uses if you are in the air. You can be falling, throw out the move, and occasionally smack people before they fly past you from the spike. I did Upb to Dair to Uair once, felt ****in great
Upb does have some cool uses if you are in the air. You can be falling, throw out the move, and occasionally smack people before they fly past you from the spike. I did Upb to Dair to Uair once, felt ****in great
leelue
Smash Lord
Neither of these are *slightly*