Tier List Speculation

[Jolteon]

Not to mention Marth does not need to rely on gimping since he can win based on attrition alone against the characters he can prevent from landing.

As far as percentile goes, Marth is just as good as he was in melee in PM. Maybe minutely worse. There are a few characters, not more than a handful, (Fox, Falco, Sonic, maybe Pitt) that are better by design and then there are a few that just give him a stupidly hard time and have to play less perfect than he does to beat him (Sheik and to a much lesser extent Puff maybe 1 more) and then there is everyone else that Marth either beats or does fine against.

It's a lot harder for Marth to win based on attrition in a game with stages like Rumble Falls.

I also think that a lot of characters in PM are well-equipped to deal with dash dancing, at least compared to Melee.

 

[Aaronator]

Well after this past weekend Sonic is now tier SSS. lol

 

[Vashimus]

I've always personally placed Sonic on his own tier above the spacies. I can't compare him to the rest of the cast since he's a loose cannon hedgehog on the edge who doesn't play by the rules.

 

[9bit_alt]

Sonic remains in gay tier. It's unlikely he'll ever get out of it.

 

[Ripple]

Really? What

DK's up-b is the fastest OOS move in the game. a frame 3 invincible incredibly strong hitbox that hits behind DK. now that he can reverse it, any medium to tall character that does a late hit on DK's shield that isn't spaced perfectly can be hit, even Marth's fair

 

[zman804]

I know you guys are real interested about some of the "low tiers." Who better to rock low tiers than AZ?

k9 (Ness) vs Taj (Marth, Falco) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euzbV1DtRU0
Hey Zeuss (D3) vs Taj (Falco, Marth) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQv6JmwkDEA

 

[CyberZixx]

That commentary is something else. I only watched a bit of the first game where Taj played Marth. I don't know if it was an off day, or he is just not used to PM but he was playing really poorly He is much better than that in melee.

 

[MonkUnit]

DK's up-b is the fastest OOS move in the game. a frame 3 invincible incredibly strong hitbox that hits behind DK. now that he can reverse it, any medium to tall character that does a late hit on DK's shield that isn't spaced perfectly can be hit, even Marth's fair

GnW's upB OoS is faster. it hits frame 1

 

[Oracle]

Id take 3 frame invincible over 1 frame regular any day

 

[CORY]

I know you guys are real interested about some of the "low tiers." Who better to rock low tiers than AZ?

k9 (Ness) vs Taj (Marth, Falco) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euzbV1DtRU0
Hey Zeuss (D3) vs Taj (Falco, Marth) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQv6JmwkDEA

muting the audio makes those much more bearable...

shame the ness airdodged off the side last stock, that was a really close match!

 

[zman804]

muting the audio makes those much more bearable...

shame the ness airdodged off the side last stock, that was a really close match!

Audio quality or commentator quality?

 

[CORY]

commentators ;x at one point, it was like there was a character named "oh my god" and they were spam selecting it. it was pretty god damned terrible.

 

[Vashimus]

That girl needs to get off the mike. :/

 

[Oro?!]

That girl needs to get off the mike. :/

I don't know who mike is, but she needs to get off of the microphone as well. :3

 

[The_NZA]

Smash community, at its best, once again proving it is only a place for 13 year old boys. We represent this community. Can't we at least make it feel inclusive?

 

[9Kplus1]

Well, to be fair, some of those '13-year old boys' are pretty good at Smash--and regardless of how mature, smart, or old they are, all of them are the future of this community.

On a different note, ZSS is top tier material. Jesus **** she's so good; also, picking her up makes my mains "DBZ" (in that order), which is just plain awesome.

 

[KayB]

On a different note, ZSS is top tier material. Jesus **** she's so good

lolwat.

 

[Strong Badam]

DK's up-b is the fastest OOS move in the game. a frame 3 invincible incredibly strong hitbox that hits behind DK. now that he can reverse it, any medium to tall character that does a late hit on DK's shield that isn't spaced perfectly can be hit, even Marth's fair

"incredibly strong"? It's weaker than his bair after like, 50%.

 

[Vashimus]

I don't know who mike is, but she needs to get off of the microphone as well. :3

A wise guy, eh? Alright. Just remember who's #unviable.

 

[Oro?!]

Smash community, at its best, once again proving it is only a place for 13 year old boys. We represent this community. Can't we at least make it feel inclusive?

Did you listen to the commentary? I don't really care what gender someone is, but at least say something productive if you are commentating. No one said anything worthwhile on that commentary. It was just massive circlejerking about K9 and Taj, and saying how good Falco is.

 

[Ripple]

do you guys judge an entire community based off 1 local stream? quit being ********. locals aren't going to be blessed with good commentary or represent the whole community.

 

[The_NZA]

The commentary was obviously bad. I can only take random dudes yelling how "black X person's falco is" for so long. But when a chick does bad commentary, making a comment implying she needs to stop servicing people sexually isn't the proper response. That type of unnecessary behavior makes this community impossible or hurtful for women to want to be a part of. Members of this community far too often do not ask themselves "would I say this if a gay person or a girl were standing beside me," and because of that this community can start to play to the lowest common denominator [immature 13 year old (often white) boys].

If you aren't comfortable saying this stuff if a black/gay/female player was beside you, then you shouldn't be saying it. If you are comfortable saying this stuff even in those contexts, then you are preventing someone who loves this game from partaking in it, and therefore you are bad for the community.

 

[Vashimus]

Wait, is NZA talking about us, or what was said on the stream (which I muted after like 2 minutes). If so, you got WAY more offended at the comment than any women would have. There was nothing sexist about the comment to begin with. Her commentary was terrible, it was HELLA tryhard, and she needed to GTFO the mike. Or mic, as it should be spelled, before Oro playfully made a joke about it. Don't try to pull the white knight act when there's no conflict.

Well, to be fair, some of those '13-year old boys' are pretty good at Smash--and regardless of how mature, smart, or old they are, all of them are the future of this community.

Well to be fair nothing. Being good at a video game doesn't make you exempt from having decent social skills.

 

[Oro?!]

If you are talking to me, my comment was directed at Vashimus and never the girl. I could care less to make jokes about the commentary or the girl. Sorry that you can't read into context on the internet, but stop trying to be a white knight.

Also yes, I would talk the exact same way regardless of any age, gender, race, sexual orientation person was next to me. So again, if it was directed at me, pull your head out of your ass and get back to the purpose of this thread.

 

[The_NZA]

...your comment was directed @ Vashimus ABOUT the girl. I don't know why you are trying to duck out of the responsibility for the comment. The comment was hella sexist, because you weren't implying that the other casters (who were also bad) were busy sexually servicing anyone. That comment was reserved for the one female caster.

Fact: All the casters were bad
Fact: You hurled an insult at the female one that talked about how she was sexually servicing someone (an insult that you would have likely not made about the other two)
Fact: You and Vashimus tried to play like you weren't insulting her on a gendered basis
Fact: You guys tried to imply I can only be pushing for you to be less sexist on the basis that I'm a "white knight" trying to save the princess for my own personal motives.

I've said all I have to say on this. I'll let the tier list discussion continue. I just wish you could have left it at "she needs to be off the microphone".

 

[Minor Pandemic]

So anyways, can anyone speak to the reasons for Jiggs moving slowly downwards?

 

[Oro?!]

I didn't think about the implications of a guy named mike, just that Vash sucked at spelling. Again, internet context can be hard.

People that go out of their way to find things that are sexist or racist are generally the people that have issues. I don't discriminate by gender or age. Get over it.

 

[Vashimus]

It was a freaking joke. Oro didn't care if she was a girl or not. It was just wordplay. A sexual innuendo, yes, but innuendo's are not sexist, nor are they meant to be taken this seriously. Because newsflash: most women are sexually attracted to men. It's reality, not a stereotype.

This reminds of the time at the last EXPO when reporter asked if he could motorboat a booth babe, she agreed, and he did it on camera. Then all these white nights online came out raging, writing articles, posting comments and so on, saying it was "sexual harassment". Then the woman came out and tweeted that it was with consent, told them they don't speak for women, and called them idiots. Then all those white knights (professional journalists, mind you) start backtracking, telling her why she SHOULD feel offended, even though she wasn't. Hilarious, but sad at the same time.

NOW, let's talk about Oro's ZSS.

 

[Ripple]

its going to be offensive to say "I like boobs" one day

 

[B.W.]

It's obvious we need to nerf ZSS's bust.

Speaking of ZSS, where does everyone feel that Ganon is on the list? Considering he's a crazy meat mountain, he should probably be at the top of the tiers.

In in seriousness, are the matches of Wizz destroying people with Sonic up? I didn't get the chance to watch it live and I can't find the archive nor can I find many videos of P:M at Zenith. Someone help me out please.

 

[CORY]

pmbr coverup. they're locking down the news agencies, next they'll be coming after those of us asking questions about it.

 

[GMaster171]

JC is uploading them here:
http://www.youtube.com/user/JCaesar007/videos?view=0

 

[Oro?!]

https://www.youtube.com/user/CLASHTournaments/videos

 

[B.W.]

Thanks to the both of you. Now I know how I'm going to spend my day off.

 

[BTmoney]

Can I speak for the black community?

 

[Sethlon]

So anyways, can anyone speak to the reasons for Jiggs moving slowly downwards?

Its mostly because Jigg's best aspects (her spaced bair beating pretty much every move in Melee, and her ability to carry people offstage while edgeguarding) simply aren't as powerful in PM's grand scheme. There are more characters able to straight out beat the bair or win trades with it (why hello bowser/charizard fair), and since many PM characters' recoveries have the ability to survive one or more hits offstage, her relatively poor KO power (outside of Rest) is more of an issue for her than in Melee.
Jigg's good recovery is also less of an advantage IMO, since recoveries in general are better, with some characters having an even better recovery than her.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Recoveries being ultra good in PM is a bit of a problem with Jigglypuff, but I still don't think it's something that holds her back from garnering victories by and large. Hungrybox's great trackrecord in the game is a testament to one of two things: Either there is not enough of a metagame to establish that characters straight out beat her, or the player base for this game is too poor to make a judgement on the character's supposed downfall. Either everyone sucks, or she is legitimately better than the naysayers claim.

 

[Jolteon]

Why can't it just be a testament to hbox's skill? It's one puff player.

 

[Kink-Link5]

One player being substantially better than the other players in the game is nearly synonymous with "The player base for this game is bad." Good and bad are relative, so compared to the good (Hbox), many players in this game are bad, and are losing to a good player and against a supposed bad character. Hbox being good and the rest of the PM players being bad mean the same thing.

Hope that made sense.

 

[Burnsy]

What do you guys think the most overrated and underrated characters are? I would say Lucas is the most overrated while Ness is the most underrated...ironically enough.

Overrated? By a vocal minority you mean? What good Lucas users have you played?

I'd like to hear what makes Lucas overrated to you, although I agree Ness is underrated.