Tier List Speculation

[CyberZixx]

you are only banned from balancing bowser. No loss.

 

[steelguttey]

wayy to many posts that are ****-posting and talking about low tiers were happening for me to not be here

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ Mr.Pickle Thank you! :D

@ Scatz I'm all for intelligent buffs to Koopa Klaw to emphasize his grappling. Right now it's basically a vestigial move against people who know the Bowser matchup, sadly.

@ Foo Agreed entirely. Bowser could withstand a lot of normalization while still maintaining his unique identity and flavor.

 

[steelguttey]

i was waiting for someone to post so i wouldnt have to double post but yea

low tiers in this game have a trend of being absolute bull**** for people who dont know the matchups. guess who im gonna bring up, you guessed it.

olimar is ****ing dumb. side b is overpowered in a way that is good because its on olimar but its a projectile that takes advantage of the opponent knowing the goddamned matchup and i have a love/hate relationship with it

if i throw a pikmin on you, it does something that only one other projectile in the game (fox lazers) does and it removes the unpredictability from the opponent and thats stupid. if you get a pikmin dry humping your opponent, they have 2 options. hit it off or take damage. what i meant by "if they know the matchup then the projectile gets better" because if they just leave it on, it isnt really good unless its a white (which then it turns into a free stock lmao) and even then i have a 1/5 chance of taking advantage of that (**** rng). but i know theyre gonna hit it off and since olimar has a dash dance and a dumb grab range, i can punish them with a full combo full screen for getting hit by a projectile. all i have to do is hit them with a pikmin, dash dance around them until they throw out something and punish them for it.

at high level, olimar's bad matchups are bad simply because there are characters that completely ignore this rule. fox lazers poop on pikmin and stop them mid arc (WHICH IS REALLY ****ING STUPID WHY DO BEAMS OF LIGHT HAVE MORE PRIORITY THAN ACTUAL LIVING THINGS) and swords just completely ignore pikmin. which is why fast projectiles (fox) and swords (marth) are his awful matchups (fox is 75-25 and marth is 80-20) and he has stupid matchups against characters with slow options no matter how good they are (hes one of the few characters that beats captain falcon handily)

honestly if they overbuff him in 3.6 (the buffs ive heard of so far are pretty crazy) hes gonna be complained about here quite a bit

 

[Frost | Odds]

How's oli vs Ganon, GnW, and ROB? I'd legit consider him for a secondary

 

[Foo]

i was waiting for someone to post so i wouldnt have to double post but yea

low tiers in this game have a trend of being absolute bull**** for people who dont know the matchups. guess who im gonna bring up, you guessed it.

olimar is ****ing dumb. side b is overpowered in a way that is good because its on olimar but its a projectile that takes advantage of the opponent knowing the goddamned matchup and i have a love/hate relationship with it

if i throw a pikmin on you, it does something that only one other projectile in the game (fox lazers) does and it removes the unpredictability from the opponent and thats stupid. if you get a pikmin dry humping your opponent, they have 2 options. hit it off or take damage. what i meant by "if they know the matchup then the projectile gets better" because if they just leave it on, it isnt really good unless its a white (which then it turns into a free stock lmao) and even then i have a 1/5 chance of taking advantage of that (**** rng). but i know theyre gonna hit it off and since olimar has a dash dance and a dumb grab range, i can punish them with a full combo full screen for getting hit by a projectile. all i have to do is hit them with a pikmin, dash dance around them until they throw out something and punish them for it.

at high level, olimar's bad matchups are bad simply because there are characters that completely ignore this rule. fox lazers poop on pikmin and stop them mid arc (WHICH IS REALLY ****ING STUPID WHY DO BEAMS OF LIGHT HAVE MORE PRIORITY THAN ACTUAL LIVING THINGS) and swords just completely ignore pikmin. which is why fast projectiles (fox) and swords (marth) are his awful matchups (fox is 75-25 and marth is 80-20) and he has stupid matchups against characters with slow options no matter how good they are (hes one of the few characters that beats captain falcon handily)

honestly if they overbuff him in 3.6 (the buffs ive heard of so far are pretty crazy) hes gonna be complained about here quite a bit

Don't forget about iceclimbers. If there is so much as one good iceclimber per region next patch they will be complained about sooooo muuuuuuch. It's really stupid that one grab is basically a stock for most characters and you have to get used to an entirely different game when playing against them. Not to mention you have to adjust to having twice the hitlag which also makes comboing them really hard. In zss vs ICs I basically just have to play spaced bair the character and it's the most frustrating and boring thing ever...

 

[steelguttey]

ganon is oli's best matchup

gnw is something i havent played but olimar is a good combo weight and so is gnw so i'd consider it even

rob sucks

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I mean, it's almost a given that once he's a character, olimar is going to have his jank noticeable to peeps, hopefully this isn't the last update in case it's too much, so if it's too janky it can be ironed out. Also ICs have been grab the character for years, as long as they don't auto death me from a stupid easy technique I'll respect them.

 

[trash?]

I can't wait for 3.6 when olimar's pikmin will be too good and I'll still be playing the only character that can't clank them out of the air

;;

 

[JOE!]

Doesn't the sword having a hitbox at all stop them anyway, like with lasers?

 

[steelguttey]

Doesn't the sword having a hitbox at all stop them anyway, like with lasers?

basically marth has to have the spacing of a 2 year old to beat olimar 8'^(

 

[Scatz]

Isn't DK a grappler?

Hmm...Now that I think about it, he does fit the bill with the ability to more opponents' positions on stages and get massive damage off it. My b.

@ Scatz I'm all for intelligent buffs to Koopa Klaw to emphasize his grappling. Right now it's basically a vestigial move against people who know the Bowser matchup, sadly.

Yeah, Koopa Klaw doesn't bring merit when going up the skill level chart unless the opponent decided to go to sleep in shield. Bowser just feels incomplete at his current state, and armor doesn't fill that void imo.

 

[eideeiit]

I'd legit consider him for a secondary

Odds confirmed masochist troll?

 

[JOE!]

basically marth has to have the spacing of a 2 year old to beat olimar 8'^(

Meant more MK but yeah that too. Marth is a weird gatekeeper for a variety of characters. Like if he didn't exist you'd see a very different tier list lol.

 

[jtm94]

I absolutely hate facing Olimar with GnW. Very, Very, Very, Very, Strongly.
I don't even know why, I hate it more than his worst MUs, it's just unpleasant, unfun, can't hit him, can't combo him, die early, faster aerials, weird grab, and screw purple pikmin.

In 3.02 it was the only character to make me quit the game. It was like current Ganon, but instead of dthrow > fair it was dthrow > fair > fair > dair on outwards DI.

 

[Ningildo]

At least up smash doesn't combo into itself anymore.

Yeah, screw the Marth MU. At least, until we get grab armor and everyone screams broken. Also fsmash edgeguarding 2 gud, prevents people from recovering low too often with the mere threat of it and forces them to go high...with a fair waiting for them. Almost makes up for not being able to recover sometimes.

I still think Oli isn't bottom-gutter tier trash, but only because I think I shouldn't be doing decently well in my scene (although it's small and I'm one of the better players) with such a "horrible" character. Or maybe it's because I feel a bit salty that 99% of people bandwagon too much with "oli **** tier confirmt" and the same people will do the same for "oli is broken" (that's what I think, at least, so consume that thought with a grain of salt).

But really now, grab armor when? 9.9

 

[Foo]

Olimar is just a mediocre character without any recovery this patch. It's like if you took away charizard's up-b and down-b.

 

[Life]

Olimar is just a mediocre character without any recovery this patch. It's like if you took away charizard's up-b and down-b.

So Charizard?

I'm a Zard secondary I'm not serious pls dont shoot me

 

[Boiko]

In zss vs ICs I basically just have to play spaced bair the character and it's the most frustrating and boring thing ever...

Pick up Ness.

Ness vs. ICs is far and away the most fun match up in the game for Ness. I never get tired of playing it.

 

[Deleted member]

How's oli vs Ganon, GnW, and ROB? I'd legit consider him for a secondary

probably the same as most of the cast- great vs ganon and bowser, and terrible vs rob, but then there's like 3 or less characters that might beat rob and 35+ that certainly do not lol

 

[standardtoaster]

fox lazers poop on pikmin and stop them mid arc (WHICH IS REALLY ****ING STUPID WHY DO BEAMS OF LIGHT HAVE MORE PRIORITY THAN ACTUAL LIVING THINGS) and swords just completely ignore pikmin. which is why fast projectiles (fox) and swords (marth) are his awful matchups (fox is 75-25 and marth is 80-20) and he has stupid matchups against characters with slow options no matter how good they are (hes one of the few characters that beats captain falcon handily)

pikmin have hurtboxes, that's why they get stopped by lasers :[

 

[steelguttey]

pikmin blow through other projectiles, they just get stopped by lazers for some reason

 

[Frost | Odds]

Odds confirmed masochist troll?

I do pretty much solo main bowser, so probably yeah.

@Umbreon I've been toying around with ROB a bit off and on; I'm growing less and less convinced that he loses to either sheik or falcon. He miiiiiiiight lose to D3, but only on small maps -- D3 gets camped like crazy on anything bigger than BF.

 

[Ripple]

No character can camp DDD except ivy.

Rob also gets bodied by ddd

 

[Frost | Odds]

I stand corrected. Allow me to rephrase.

My terrible DDD gets camped like Yellowstone in that matchup. Ripple senpai pls help

 

[PlateProp]

Can every form of armor above light just be removed already

Like srsly med armor and above is stupid

 

[Deleted member]

I do pretty much solo main bowser, so probably yeah.

@Umbreon I've been toying around with ROB a bit off and on; I'm growing less and less convinced that he loses to either sheik or falcon. He miiiiiiiight lose to D3, but only on small maps -- D3 gets camped like crazy on anything bigger than BF.

personally i dont think rob loses to anyone, or at least not any character im familiar with.

 

[PootisKonga]

Not even Fox?

Actually I heard a while back that he was a pretty good anti-spacie character so maybe it is true

 

[zman804]

I honestly wish I had been playing rob for the past year or so. He's a heavy robo-shiek with air dashes, an item and one of the best projectiles in the game.

 

[Juushichi]

I think ROB v Falcon is not good, but not terrible.

If ROB edgeguards vs Sheik weren't so goddamn systematic I'd say he absolutely lost to her. I think it might be 55-45 now Sheik favor. ROB is a problem for real.

Also GnW vs Olimar was a cancerous matchup and i'm glad I don't have to play it ever again.

Also Ice Climbers are obnoxious NOW. Just wait until 3.6, lmao. I already play almost all of the cast to some level or another, but I think I may ACTUALLY pick up IC for **** I don't want to deal with.

Columbus is like 75% floaties/midweights though lol. Luigi, Puff, Samus, Peach, M2, Sheik, Kirby, Wario, ROB, Marth.

Yeah... maybe not lol.

 

[standardtoaster]

rob has ridiculously fast forward and back throws combined with sex kick marth fair. don't really see how rob could be all that bad lol

 

[Binary Clone]

rob has ridiculously fast forward and back throws combined with sex kick marth fair. don't really see how rob could be all that bad lol

And his down throw exists


just in general

 

[Deleted member]

rob has good weight, good DD, good CC, good normals, good combo weight, one of the best throws in the game period, good recovery, and unlike other floaties doesnt lose to projectile spam and cant be juggled. he might have some issues w/ sheik but sheik doesnt like rob's CC game and rob punishes sheik way harder than the opposite (true for most of rob's MUs). and theres also basically no downside to any of this. he's also one of the few characters that holds well against other broken characters (fox and roy basically).

 

[Ripple]

I stand corrected. Allow me to rephrase.

My terrible DDD gets camped like Yellowstone in that matchup. Ripple senpai pls help

have you tried jumping more?

 

[Deleted member]

personally i dont think rob loses to anyone, or at least not any character im familiar with.

I think he definitely loses a few MUs. He loses badly to DDD and GnW, 45-55 vs Sheik, loses vs falcon (I can't tell the degree of which he loses, because I've heard multiple opinions from both oracle and other robs) and uhh... He lost to snake in 3.02 pretty badly but I think hes fine vs snake now?

No character can camp DDD except ivy.

Rob also gets bodied by ddd

I've never actually played DDD vs TL outside of a few friends with you at ltc2 (and a game vs Captain Birdman). I know its like -3 or -4, but I don't have a ton of exp in the MU. Can Toon Link camp DDD necessarily, or is it just that auto combo bombs = death?

 

[Ripple]

its the bomb combos and rushdown

 

[Myst007_teh_newb]

Just gonna chime in, but I think that ZSS beats ROB at least 55-45, but probably 60-40.

ROB is actually huge combo food for ZSS, something that a lot of other characters would kill for. Her nair is so huge that she can carry him across the stage Falcon style into a fair. On a stage like Smashville or Distant Planet whose platforms encourage you to use them as diving boards into off-stage finishers, ZSS can hit confirm from center stage and carry ROB to his doom because of his floatiness and biggitude.

What makes ROB good are his projectile game, his gimps, and his burst movement. And ZSS diffuses all of these strengths.

ZSS can deal with his projectiles pretty soundly. You can crawl under ROB's gyro glide toss, which frees up the space and makes ROB zoning much less effectively. Fun fact, you can also crawl under laser, but ROB's will probably angle them downwards, so that doesn't really matter much. ZSS has an amazing glide toss, so if you get your hands on the top, you can hit confirm into huge combos yourself. Because I played a lot of Brawl, my item game and glide toss game are pretty solid and I find myself utilizing top way better than ROB does in that matchup (ZSS HAS SUCH A GOOD GLIDE TOSS). So projectiles are effectively neutralized.

The way that ZSS's recovery works, she can't get gimped in the way that ROB likes to gimp people. Laser gimps are easier to telegraph since you'll be using down-b to recovery and saving your jump until you're safely under stage and out of the range of laser. Also the fact that ROB can't do something dumb like bthrow laser to gimp you out of your recovery like he can against other characters that need that jump to alter their momentums (Like spacies or literally anyone else in the cast). This gives ZSS a huge edge and removes laser gimps from ROB's toolkit. Also the fact that you get another down-b every time you're hit means that fair gimps are virtually impossible. You can just keep coming back, which is stupid. So abuse it.

ROB's boost is also very managable. Boost fair can be dash dance baited because ZSS has such a good dash dance. You can also stuff it with utilt or uair, both or which are fantastic anti-airs that can be stuck out during boost's start up. Also ZSS has an answer to that dumb thing that ROB's like to do when they're up super high-- that stupid boost nair that is almost impossible to challenge against the rest of the cast. ZSS's up-b has so much disjoint that ROB can't just run away into the air like he can against other people. It's also intangible, so it's not going to clank or anything. They just get rocketed towards the ground.

Add to this the fact that edge guarding ROB is free because of ZSS's dive kick and ROB's recovery not having an active hitbox to cover him, the fact that his weight and size make dair juggles incredibly free, ROB's lack of a good punish on tether reel in, the fact that ROB has no answer to spaced bair walls except glide toss OoS, ZSS's blaster, which can bait grounded side-b (Which you can shield grab him out of) because of blaster's very low endlag, and I don't see how ROB can feasibly win the matchup against ZSS.

ROB has dthrow.

60-40 ZSS's favor. I'm calling it.

 

[TreK]

No character can camp DDD except ivy.

Rob also gets bodied by ddd

Idk why they removed her ability to heal from balloons and shy guys, but not waddles.

 

[Deleted member]

Just gonna chime in, but I think that ZSS beats ROB at least 55-45, but probably 60-40.

ROB is actually huge combo food for ZSS, something that a lot of other characters would kill for. Her nair is so huge that she can carry him across the stage Falcon style into a fair. On a stage like Smashville or Distant Planet whose platforms encourage you to use them as diving boards into off-stage finishers, ZSS can hit confirm from center stage and carry ROB to his doom because of his floatiness and biggitude.

What makes ROB good are his projectile game, his gimps, and his burst movement. And ZSS diffuses all of these strengths.

ZSS can deal with his projectiles pretty soundly. You can crawl under ROB's gyro glide toss, which frees up the space and makes ROB zoning much less effectively. Fun fact, you can also crawl under laser, but ROB's will probably angle them downwards, so that doesn't really matter much. ZSS has an amazing glide toss, so if you get your hands on the top, you can hit confirm into huge combos yourself. Because I played a lot of Brawl, my item game and glide toss game are pretty solid and I find myself utilizing top way better than ROB does in that matchup (ZSS HAS SUCH A GOOD GLIDE TOSS). So projectiles are effectively neutralized.

The way that ZSS's recovery works, she can't get gimped in the way that ROB likes to gimp people. Laser gimps are easier to telegraph since you'll be using down-b to recovery and saving your jump until you're safely under stage and out of the range of laser. Also the fact that ROB can't do something dumb like bthrow laser to gimp you out of your recovery like he can against other characters that need that jump to alter their momentums (Like spacies or literally anyone else in the cast). This gives ZSS a huge edge and removes laser gimps from ROB's toolkit. Also the fact that you get another down-b every time you're hit means that fair gimps are virtually impossible. You can just keep coming back, which is stupid. So abuse it.

ROB's boost is also very managable. Boost fair can be dash dance baited because ZSS has such a good dash dance. You can also stuff it with utilt or uair, both or which are fantastic anti-airs that can be stuck out during boost's start up. Also ZSS has an answer to that dumb thing that ROB's like to do when they're up super high-- that stupid boost nair that is almost impossible to challenge against the rest of the cast. ZSS's up-b has so much disjoint that ROB can't just run away into the air like he can against other people. It's also intangible, so it's not going to clank or anything. They just get rocketed towards the ground.

Add to this the fact that edge guarding ROB is free because of ZSS's dive kick and ROB's recovery not having an active hitbox to cover him, the fact that his weight and size make dair juggles incredibly free, ROB's lack of a good punish on tether reel in, the fact that ROB has no answer to spaced bair walls except glide toss OoS, ZSS's blaster, which can bait grounded side-b (Which you can shield grab him out of) because of blaster's very low endlag, and I don't see how ROB can feasibly win the matchup against ZSS.

ROB has dthrow.

60-40 ZSS's favor. I'm calling it.

I've actually thought of using ZSS vs Oracles rob before, I tried it and I looked really silly (Don't look it up on youtube). I think her main problem is lack of killing but outside of that she probably beats rob, I agree.

 

[Ripple]

Idk why they removed her ability to heal from balloons and shy guys, but not waddles.

because if they removed the ability to heal off them, then ivy couldn't actually hit hurtboxes of the same type, aka characters.

if @Magus420 could fix this unwinnable MU somehow, that'd be super appreciated