Tier List Speculation

[Frost | Odds]

have you tried jumping more?

Haven't practiced the MU a ton, but I'll do that. Don't you just get hosed by utilt/uair/dacus though?

EDIT: also, do you have any footage of the Ivy vs D3 MU? I'm curious to see it in action. Is it just Ivy healing off the waddles and D3's inability to get through razor leaf?

 

[ChrisRoxal]

Any official tier list for 3.5 ?

 

[Player -0]

Haven't practiced the MU a ton, but I'll do that. Don't you just get hosed by utilt/uair/dacus though?

EDIT: also, do you have any footage of the Ivy vs D3 MU? I'm curious to see it in action. Is it just Ivy healing off the waddles and D3's inability to get through razor leaf?

Ripple's response is probably going to be jump more.

I think I remember seeing a video of DDD vs. Ivy somewhere, can't remember where though.

 

[PlateProp]

Why is link's grab range so ****ing huge

 

[Comeback Kid]

Any official tier list for 3.5 ?

Strong Bad's personal tier list for this version is probably the closest thing we are going to get to one.

 

[Ripple]

the only video of me vs. ivy is 3.02 and its me at LTC2 against Denti and I just get ****ing annihilated

 

[Narpas_sword]

Why is link's grab range so ****ing huge

The question should be

"why is Marths grab range so huge"

or

Why is Samus' Grab range so short?

 

[PlateProp]

The question should be

"why is Marths grab range so huge"

or

Why is Samus' Grab range so short?

Becuz maylay
Duh

 

[Narpas_sword]

Becuz maylay
Duh

certainly not to samus's being short.

 

[trash?]

"because melee" is actually like, the opposite reason for samus' teeny grab

extenderrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr etc

 

[JOE!]

Samus' grab should have the same stats as her Zair

 

[Narpas_sword]

samus has a pretty poor throws (apart from Down), and no sheild pressure and a **** grab.

Buff grab.

 

[FireBall Stars]

That one is bcuz Brawl. Editing the grapple beam length for the grabs have a few problems that we didn't figure out yet, we can extend the actual beam length but you'll see each grapple beam gfx far apart from each other, looking really bad and weird in the end.

For some reason I'm not aware, Zairs don't have that problem. If this is outdated information, other PMDev with the knowledge can correct me, please do if that is the case.

 

[PlateProp]

samus has a pretty poor throws (apart from Down), and no sheild pressure and a **** grab.

Buff grab.

Samus' grab is fine.

 

[MLGF]

Buff throws?

 

[JOE!]

samus has a pretty poor throws (apart from Down), and no sheild pressure and a **** grab.

Buff grab.

I dont get why Samus doesnt have a "throw -> hit with projectiles" throw like other projectile users (Like Mewtwo and spacies). Also, doesnt Jab and Bombs create pressure?

 

[Life]

Spoiled for offtopic.

Spoiler

Yo what if Samus had a second dthrow by holding B+Down where she pinned the opponent to the ground and fired her current Charge Shot at them point blank a la Ness/Fox/Falco? (Not necessarily the same knockback scaling as Charge Shot, but consumes it to deal damage as if it hit.)

Just a random idea. She doesn't really need it, and she'd probably have to be nerfed in compensation, but I figured it was worth... throwing out there.

Something more practical would be different throws depending on fire and ice mode. Not sure which mode needs what kinds of throws better, though. My Samus is barely past casual-tier.

Samus' dthrow and uthrow are really good depending on the matchup, kinda wish the side throws were a little more useful but w/e.

She seems to get by without massive shield pressure though.

 

[Narpas_sword]

forward throw with #shotsfired would be neat.

her grapple should be on her left hand though, not her right. and her pummel should be shooting =p

bombs ans jabs create pressure if by pressure you mean ' i dont know how to buffer rolls, ill just sit here and let samus wail on my shield'

samus has 'fake' shield pressure.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Oh no stop overrating ROB oh geez
Actually I'm on mobile so **** trying to actually respond
But I can't stress enough how bad matchups feel when the opponent can just weave around in the air in front of me or just safely poke me from a platform
Like wario and Kirby just feel awful, I feel like the only way to deal with them is to just try and smack them out of the air, because otherwise I just have to try and mostly fail to CC punish because they drifted away or knocked me down or command grab or w/e, or hope they overcommit and land while advancing so I can get a grab off

 

[Strong Badam]

Wario vs ROB feels evenish to me. I may be able to weave well, but I obviously lose out when it comes to range, like in almost every MU.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Yeah that's why I feel like I have to smack you out if the air, it's a matchup where my fair's reach by itself is actually really relevant instead of the move being mostly relevant for it's sex-kick property

Also ROB's fair is way more comparable to Jiggs fair then marth's lol. Marth's is faster and covers an arc and is based on spacing, ROBs is just a slightly better version of Jiggs fair but on a character with committed aerial mobility
Also wouldn't mind talking about how people call ROBs boosts aerial DDing, I mean sure- Brawl/smash4 DDing lmao
As in the delayed DDing not the uselessly quick one
Can't exit with anything but an aerial frames 5-20, airdodge at 21, and jump/another boost aren't allowed til around 30
I'm not saying it's bad by any means but the aerial DD comparison is misleading

 

[Player -0]

Samus gets a plethora of stuff off of D-Throw, you can't say her throws are "okay."

 

[Myst007_teh_newb]

I've actually thought of using ZSS vs Oracles rob before, I tried it and I looked really silly (Don't look it up on youtube). I think her main problem is lack of killing but outside of that she probably beats rob, I agree.

Too late, I saw the set. Your ZSS was actually doing fairly well in spite of how rough around the edges she was. You just SD'd like a buster and lost the set because of it.

As far as kill potential is concerned, nair -> fair is the way to do it. Get comfortable using down-b in order to extend your combos, so for instance:

ROB at mid-high%.

You nair with the front swing. He DI's away, but you can still follow up with a full jump nair and hit with the back swing. He DI's away and you THINK you can't combo any more, but you actually can. Full-horizontal down-b and double jump to follow his DI and fair out of your jump. ZSS has INSANE reach on her combo finishers because of down-b.

Another example is suppose you hit confirm a dtilt at high %s. ROB flies super high, but you can jump, down-b, then finish with a double jump uair (if he's ridiculous high) or fair/bair.

ZSS is essentially a multi-jump character and her combos should feel like they have that freedom attached to it if you're doing it right. A common complaint I hear from ZSS mains is that she's "hard" and "requires a lot of work to do anything" which is false. She's super easy and her combos are super free if you abuse down-b for positional purposes.

I dunno if you wanna pour in the time to refine your ZSS's combo game, but if you want an answer to the ROB matchup, I think that it's worth investigating.

Also, platform tech chases net me a lot of kills with sweet spot bair. As well as rando bairs in neutral. They're super safe, so why not, you know? Shields gonna get stabbed eventually.

 

[Foo]

Just gonna chime in, but I think that ZSS beats ROB at least 55-45, but probably 60-40.

ROB is actually huge combo food for ZSS, something that a lot of other characters would kill for. Her nair is so huge that she can carry him across the stage Falcon style into a fair. On a stage like Smashville or Distant Planet whose platforms encourage you to use them as diving boards into off-stage finishers, ZSS can hit confirm from center stage and carry ROB to his doom because of his floatiness and biggitude.

What makes ROB good are his projectile game, his gimps, and his burst movement. And ZSS diffuses all of these strengths.

ZSS can deal with his projectiles pretty soundly. You can crawl under ROB's gyro glide toss, which frees up the space and makes ROB zoning much less effectively. Fun fact, you can also crawl under laser, but ROB's will probably angle them downwards, so that doesn't really matter much. ZSS has an amazing glide toss, so if you get your hands on the top, you can hit confirm into huge combos yourself. Because I played a lot of Brawl, my item game and glide toss game are pretty solid and I find myself utilizing top way better than ROB does in that matchup (ZSS HAS SUCH A GOOD GLIDE TOSS). So projectiles are effectively neutralized.

The way that ZSS's recovery works, she can't get gimped in the way that ROB likes to gimp people. Laser gimps are easier to telegraph since you'll be using down-b to recovery and saving your jump until you're safely under stage and out of the range of laser. Also the fact that ROB can't do something dumb like bthrow laser to gimp you out of your recovery like he can against other characters that need that jump to alter their momentums (Like spacies or literally anyone else in the cast). This gives ZSS a huge edge and removes laser gimps from ROB's toolkit. Also the fact that you get another down-b every time you're hit means that fair gimps are virtually impossible. You can just keep coming back, which is stupid. So abuse it.

ROB's boost is also very managable. Boost fair can be dash dance baited because ZSS has such a good dash dance. You can also stuff it with utilt or uair, both or which are fantastic anti-airs that can be stuck out during boost's start up. Also ZSS has an answer to that dumb thing that ROB's like to do when they're up super high-- that stupid boost nair that is almost impossible to challenge against the rest of the cast. ZSS's up-b has so much disjoint that ROB can't just run away into the air like he can against other people. It's also intangible, so it's not going to clank or anything. They just get rocketed towards the ground.

Add to this the fact that edge guarding ROB is free because of ZSS's dive kick and ROB's recovery not having an active hitbox to cover him, the fact that his weight and size make dair juggles incredibly free, ROB's lack of a good punish on tether reel in, the fact that ROB has no answer to spaced bair walls except glide toss OoS, ZSS's blaster, which can bait grounded side-b (Which you can shield grab him out of) because of blaster's very low endlag, and I don't see how ROB can feasibly win the matchup against ZSS.

ROB has dthrow.

60-40 ZSS's favor. I'm calling it.

Everything is more or less true save for the last paragraph. Rob can pretty easily float around divekick since it is so telegraphed. Dive kick is great against certain characters recoveries (like falcon) or for hard reads on recovery, but not against characters like rob. He could just boost up on reaction to down-b and if you tried to just double jump fair he could fair first. I wouldn't say it's super hard to edgeguard rob, but it's a farcry from "free."

Too late, I saw the set. Your ZSS was actually doing fairly well in spite of how rough around the edges she was. You just SD'd like a buster and lost the set because of it.

As far as kill potential is concerned, nair -> fair is the way to do it. Get comfortable using down-b in order to extend your combos, so for instance:

ROB at mid-high%.

You nair with the front swing. He DI's away, but you can still follow up with a full jump nair and hit with the back swing. He DI's away and you THINK you can't combo any more, but you actually can. Full-horizontal down-b and double jump to follow his DI and fair out of your jump. ZSS has INSANE reach on her combo finishers because of down-b.

Another example is suppose you hit confirm a dtilt at high %s. ROB flies super high, but you can jump, down-b, then finish with a double jump uair (if he's ridiculous high) or fair/bair.

ZSS is essentially a multi-jump character and her combos should feel like they have that freedom attached to it if you're doing it right. A common complaint I hear from ZSS mains is that she's "hard" and "requires a lot of work to do anything" which is false. She's super easy and her combos are super free if you abuse down-b for positional purposes.

I dunno if you wanna pour in the time to refine your ZSS's combo game, but if you want an answer to the ROB matchup, I think that it's worth investigating.

Also, platform tech chases net me a lot of kills with sweet spot bair. As well as rando bairs in neutral. They're super safe, so why not, you know? Shields gonna get stabbed eventually.

Nair to fair doesn't work at higher %s because he's a little too floaty. (unless you hit reverse nair). Rob is probably one of the hardest characters for ZSS to kill imo, but you do rack damage like cray. Not sure if it's 60-40, but it's definitely not worse than even unless one or both of the characters see some real development. Main problem I see with the matchup is glide toss oos against spaced bair.

Also, zss isn't "hard" in terms of tech skill and reads, she's just pretty precise and requires a lot of characters knowledge, kinda like ness. Also, she has a lot of pretty specific hitboxes and angles to her combo game like reverse bair and nair, sour dair, first hit fair, and reverse upair (DI mixup), first hit up-b, and edge canceled divekick, that I rarely if ever see ZSS players use ( and I still can't quite get the hang of a lot of that). She has a lot of combos that are pretty easy (like very basic nair and upair strings), but to unlock her entire combo game it takes a lot of work.


EDIT: @ Boiko I really just don't feel ness lol. Something about him just feels icky to me. Also, I am the type of player who can't seem to duo main a character. My zss does better than all my other characters even in really bad matchups except roy vs fox.

 

[Boiko]

Samus' dthrow and uthrow are really good depending on the matchup, kinda wish the side throws were a little more useful but w/e.

In melee at mid percents, I back throw>turn around missile spacies near the ledge. If they recover straight, they're dead. If they choose to drop low and recovery, they should be dead. It works on some characters in PM too.

Also, this: http://gfycat.com/WelcomeFearlessEskimodog

 

[Vashimus]

samus has a pretty poor throws (apart from Down), and no sheild pressure and a **** grab.

Buff grab.

Up-throw is useful against fast and semi-fast fallers to combo or techchase the platform above, and back-throw is useful for throwing people behind you offstage. The only poor throw is the forward one since d-throw is just better in every scenario where you'd use it.

Also thanks to pivoting and faster startup, it's not like getting a grab is a pipe-dream anymore.

 

[Ogopogo]

because if they removed the ability to heal off them, then ivy couldn't actually hit hurtboxes of the same type, aka characters.

if @Magus420 could fix this unwinnable MU somehow, that'd be super appreciated

It seems like this matchup is easier for DDD now that Ivy is much worse overall and Razor Leaf can't be smash thrown. Healing off of waddles is definitely still a great tool for Ivy. What do you think makes it so hard for the king?

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ DrinkingFood Kirby has even less aerial mobility than ROB without boosters. He can't weave at all. Kirby's similarity to Puff begins and pretty much ends at a fistful of jumps and a good dash attack+fsmash. In practice, he plays much more like a demented sheik/marth hybrid.

 

[Beorn]

Why is link's grab range so ****ing huge

lol wut? be glad you can grab out of the air bro. Also, duck or jump right in front of Link and Ggs.

Though I do feel for you. Link has a pretty good time with small characters like Squirtle and jiggs. Have fun running into huge lasting sword hitbubbles and dying at 80.

 

[trash?]

@ DrinkingFood Kirby has even less aerial mobility than ROB without boosters.

forward cutter tho

not to say forward cutter like magically perfects the matchup, but it still very much works vs rob, especially when chasing near the ground

 

[Player -0]

Cutter Dash is sooooooo telegraphed and vulnerable, you lose all your jumps too.

Also Ness not being tech skill heavy. Lolwhut? Please rethink your comparison.

 

[PlateProp]

lol wut? be glad you can grab out of the air bro. Also, duck or jump right in front of Link and Ggs.

Though I do feel for you. Link has a pretty good time with small characters like Squirtle and jiggs. Have fun running into huge lasting sword hitbubbles and dying at 80.

I was playing roy or something
Link literally grabbed me from the middle left side plat on dreamland when I was on the right side of the middle plat on ground

Like wtf, I wasnt even moving or anything either
edit: also link can grab out of ther air, wtf are you talking about? I've been grabbed out of the air several times

 

[Player -0]

Have you been taking drugs?

 

[Narpas_sword]

I was playing roy or something
Link literally grabbed me from the middle left side plat on dreamland when I was on the right side of the middle plat on ground

... wut?

You're definitely going to need a picture.

Or better words.

 

[InfinityCollision]

The fact that Link and Tink can't grab opponents out of the air is kind of an icky, awkward design decision, one that I'd argue is due for a revisit as PM attempts to refine its design and gameplay. I'd like to see their respective throws reworked at some point so that particular property can be reverted to fit with the rest of the cast.

 

[Foo]

I was playing roy or something
Link literally grabbed me from the middle left side plat on dreamland when I was on the right side of the middle plat on ground

No he didn't.

edit: also link can grab out of ther air, wtf are you talking about? I've been grabbed out of the air several times

No he can't.

 

[Deleted member]

The fact that Link and Tink can't grab opponents out of the air is kind of an icky, awkward design decision, one that I'd argue is due for a revisit as PM attempts to refine its design and gameplay. I'd like to see their respective throws reworked at some point so that particular property can be reverted to fit with the rest of the cast.

Their hand grabboxes can grab aerial opponents, the rest of the tether cannot. This is to prevent chain grabbing while still being able to technically grab aerial opponents

 

[Player -0]

He can at the hand but I think Plate is on drugs lel.

 

[DrinkingFood]

@ DrinkingFood Kirby has even less aerial mobility than ROB without boosters. He can't weave at all. Kirby's similarity to Puff begins and pretty much ends at a fistful of jumps and a good dash attack+fsmash. In practice, he plays much more like a demented sheik/marth hybrid.

I'm pretty sure that's not true, from the standpoint of purely drifting, ROB has one of the worst aerial mobilities
And additionally, Kirby has 5 jumps that can suddenly max his speed in either direction (if used with an aerial), so as far as micro-spacing goes it's definitely better than ROBs.

 

[PlateProp]

Their hand grabboxes can grab aerial opponents, the rest of the tether cannot. This is to prevent chain grabbing while still being able to technically grab aerial opponents

^
Arguments destroyed

No he didn't.

Except he did.