If it got nerfed it wouldn't even really be a big deal anyway. Diddy has enough legitimate tools to the point if some of his more cheesy stuff got taken out more tech/tools would take their space. His tool belt is bigger than batman's
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
I personally feel that Diddy is fine where he is.
Banana is his best tool but it requires practice to use effectively. Plus it can be used against you. More high level players will have just as good as an item game as some of the best Diddy players so ultimately it may end up working in their favor. At this point, I don't think that really anything needs to be changed about Diddy.
Banana is his best tool but it requires practice to use effectively. Plus it can be used against you. More high level players will have just as good as an item game as some of the best Diddy players so ultimately it may end up working in their favor. At this point, I don't think that really anything needs to be changed about Diddy.
Is this a thread about who is the best Ness?? Oh my.
Player -0
Smash Hero
@
Soft Serve
What if the aerial jump Side-B was a footstool that refreshed the person's DJ? It would set up for Dair but it still wouldn't be as bad as the current one in my opinion. If the Diddy decided to stall the jump to get the opponent lower he wouldn't be able to get the Dair without compromising his ability to recover. If the Diddy decided to jump early then Dair the person could meteor cancel the dair.
Soft Serve
What if the aerial jump Side-B was a footstool that refreshed the person's DJ? It would set up for Dair but it still wouldn't be as bad as the current one in my opinion. If the Diddy decided to stall the jump to get the opponent lower he wouldn't be able to get the Dair without compromising his ability to recover. If the Diddy decided to jump early then Dair the person could meteor cancel the dair.
I'm pretty sure the side-b follows the general rule that grabs refresh the opponents jump. Otherwise it really is similar to a footstool that does damage.@
Player -0
Smash Hero
Thought it might be but wasn't sure. What about the rest of my post?
Idk, I had trouble visualizing what you meant, because footstools dont really combo into dairs offstage well as diddy (they do onstage though)
I'm not big on wanting changes/speculation of changes anymore, I'd rather just focus on what the character has atm and just roll with changes when they come. Tbh the only change I would want for diddy side-b is that if you hit him out of it he loses his jump (I want this for GnW up-b too)
ThegreatVaporeon1
Smash Ace
I have the best Shaq avi
D
Deleted member
Guest
you would be cooler if you changed your name to just Vaporeon tho
Beorn
Smash Journeyman
Honestly it seems a bit over board that he can up-b after a side B considering they did so much to take recovery's down a notch. This is a pretty crazy option for a character that has so many other good attributes.
robosteven
Smash Lord
I just don't get why Diddy can snap to ledge with his side-b but Pikachu can't.
I don't think Luigi can either.
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
False! Edgeguarding a good Luigi is actually kind of a pain, largely for this reason.
TheGravyTrain
Smash Ace
I believe they made Pikachu's ledge grab at the very end only, rather than right in the middle as well. Luigi's is the same way. So if you can sweetspot, you can ledgegrab. Diddy's is actually the same, but the end lag is a lot less. With Pika's and Luigi's they fall too far to grab the ledge if you just activate it as soon as you can. Diddy can though, which is why there is confusion.
Because Brawl
Honestly its still in most likely because he is a light fast faller with worse drift than most characters that can do similar horizontal movements and then still up-b. He also only gets it once per airtime until he touches ground/grabs ledge, his recovery is less resilient/flexible than most. Its not like he can side-b high then spacie up-b to sweet-spot the ledge from above, once he choses his position to up-b his options are narrowed. Characters like Pikachu/Luigi that can up-b after side-bs get it multiple times per airtime and keep it when hit. I dont know the ledge grab Data on luigi/Pika side-bs, but Diddy's comes out around frame 37, with like 20 frames of animation before he can act.
Its a fantastic recovery distance wise, with a lot of options (although for up-b your options depend on where you up-b, limiting it to 2-3 choices depending on where) but it has horrible coverage hitboxes, punishable on landing/easily intercepted, with not a lot of chances to make it back unless you're at very low %.
Oh and trust me, his recovery got gutted from 3.02. up-b goes like, half the distance it used to, charging only nets you about half a Diddy size in extra vertical, and side-b had its animation endlag nearly doubled.
Its a good recovery but I don't think it needs changing because its easy to stop as it is.
Beorn
Smash Journeyman
Probably because he starts moving down very quickly.
robosteven
Smash Lord
@Apollo Ali recommended that I try playing Diddy more in order to try and reduce my salt towards the character.
This post is to say that it's working a little. His recovery is pretty predictable, landing kill-confirms without bananas is hard, and he's combo food.
so idk yet, I still think bananas are hella stupid but I'll keep playing him to find weaknesses.
This post is to say that it's working a little. His recovery is pretty predictable, landing kill-confirms without bananas is hard, and he's combo food.
so idk yet, I still think bananas are hella stupid but I'll keep playing him to find weaknesses.
Life
Smash Hero
I don't really see the issue in theory. At long distances you can neutral tech before they can react (or just z-catch on reaction for that matter), and at short ranges they could have done any other number of things to hit you. There's a sweetspot range where you can't react as well, sure, but if the character doesn't have anything else to threaten you from that range, then you can be prepared for just that threat.
In this specific case, the fact that it's an item means that it's a usable OOS option (glide tossing etc). Other characters with a techchase option OOS include any character with a techchase throw, of which there are plenty. Those don't have the same range as a banana throw, of course.
Just because a character has a tool that hasn't been seen elsewhere in the series does not mean that tool is inherently problematic.
When I play against Diddy players I take the banana and throw it on the other side of me. I force them to go and get it. A lot of times they do stupid things to try and get to it, which I capitalize on. I have a good item game, but if I'm playing someone like Seagull, I'm not even going to try to compete in that regard. I'd rather just eliminate the option.
I don't think bananas are a big deal.
I don't think bananas are a big deal.
Player -0
Smash Hero
I know, Squirtle is so broken.
.alizarin
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2014
- Messages
- 97
don't misunderstand; i never said that diddy was broken or that bananas were, nor did i say that any character with a tech-forcing projectile was broken (also i think of squirtle's bubble more as a disjoint that forces a tech, not so much a projectile, but that's irrelevant). all i said was that the concept itself is questionable, and i also didn't even say that it was questionable just because it's "not seen elsewhere in the series".
while i don't particularly like the idea of being able to flat out take away the majority of diddy's neutral just by holding on to or tossing the banana somewhere, nor do i like the idea of a tech-forcing projectile, i think it's implemented as well as something like that can be, and as far as im concerned, diddy is fine despite my personal gripes with his design.
but thanks for putting words into my mouth lmao
while i don't particularly like the idea of being able to flat out take away the majority of diddy's neutral just by holding on to or tossing the banana somewhere, nor do i like the idea of a tech-forcing projectile, i think it's implemented as well as something like that can be, and as far as im concerned, diddy is fine despite my personal gripes with his design.
but thanks for putting words into my mouth lmao
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PlateProp
Smash Master
When posts are being made to trigger you specifically
TruthOrFair
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2015
- Messages
- 3
Can someone explain why Samus is considered by most tier list as a top 10-15 character?
Player -0
Smash Hero
You mean you DON'T think Squirtle is the best character? People saying Fox is the best character is bull.
Life
Smash Hero
@
.alizarin
I'm not sure what you're getting at? What's up? (Also, as a Squirtle main, Bubble is NOT a projectile, I don't care what Bucket and PSI Magnet think.)
@ T TruthOrFair Samus is a difficult weight/fallspeed to combo, hard to kill off the sides due to weight and a decent recovery, has really good edgeguarding between missiles and nair and probably some other things I can't think of off the top of my head, has pretty decent onstage tools like CC dsmash, and probably some other stuff.
She has enough tools to compete, basically.
.alizarin
I'm not sure what you're getting at? What's up? (Also, as a Squirtle main, Bubble is NOT a projectile, I don't care what Bucket and PSI Magnet think.)@ T TruthOrFair Samus is a difficult weight/fallspeed to combo, hard to kill off the sides due to weight and a decent recovery, has really good edgeguarding between missiles and nair and probably some other things I can't think of off the top of my head, has pretty decent onstage tools like CC dsmash, and probably some other stuff.
She has enough tools to compete, basically.
Beorn
Smash Journeyman
I posted this in the Link character discussion boards. I thought some of you guys might like to see these hitbubbles for discussion sake. Also Ganon has incredibly stupid hitbubbles as well. The good melee characters have really dumb hitbubbles that kinda beat or get GameStop trades with everything. I'm not saying they need to be smaller. I just thought you guys would like this compilation. Most characters have no where near this kinda priority.
UPDATED for even more janky big red balls
UPDATED for even more janky big red balls
Attachments
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GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
>Gamestop trades
dead
dead
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
It's worth noting that some of those become smaller after the first few hit frames (Sheik/Fox bair) or are active for very few frames (Puff bair/Sheik fair). Screenshots don't tell the whole story.
Hello
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
I wish ROB's booster hitboxes were as big as the fire graphics
Hooooooh boooy
Hooooooh boooy
Beorn
Smash Journeyman
While this is true... Everyone has to deal with these things, but they don't have such extremely fast damaging and powerful data to go with similar moves. As well as being extremely disjointed. The characters with the craziest hitbubbles in the game for their models are Shiek, Ganon and Captain falcon. Most characters in the game have very normal or even negatively disjointed hitbubbles, with like 1 disjoint or 2. Also Ganon deserves his own sheet, because lol...
Dat knee grab box on aerial side b why
Dat dash grab bubble behind his back for no reason?
Dat Electric Sleeping BAG!
Btw none of these moves get smaller as the move ends.
So Strong bad doesn't come in with the real talk again... Those big red hitboxes on side b don't hit characters. They are for break the targets.
Melee top tier jank updated above.
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Player -0
Smash Hero
Sakurai decided to nerf Ganon by moving his grab inside and around his body instead of having the grab in front of him like every normal person.
TheGravyTrain
Smash Ace
Also worth noting, that knee grab box is necessary for it to work properly. Grab boxes (and hitboxes on places like shoulders) look stupid, but are necessary for the move to function properly. For the dorf, he already struggles with short characters, aerial side b would be useless against them without it. This was brought up on the boards recently and everyone agreed. As for giant hitbubbles melee characters, if it were on anybody else it would be broken. With them, we know we can deal with it. It would be janky if someone like Squirtle had this...
Player -0
Smash Hero
Someone post Squirtle's Bair pls.
Beorn
Smash Journeyman
I got you bro. Squirtles nair duh real mvp though.
Yeh, I didn't bring this up because it was a problem. I just always play people that have no idea how good their priority is then I show them the sleeping bag, and they freak out. Just spreading the knowledge breh.
Yeh, I didn't bring this up because it was a problem. I just always play people that have no idea how good their priority is then I show them the sleeping bag, and they freak out. Just spreading the knowledge breh.
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Player -0
Smash Hero
Reminder that Squirtle's tail is intangible during the hitboxes lelelel.
Edit - Triggering PlateProp yesssss
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TheGravyTrain
Smash Ace
I was under the impression that Back air had intangibility, but Brawl Box doesn't explicitly say anything (it could be something Bit variables/sub routines, but I have no idea what the heck those are).
Yeah Ganon's a big, strong ************, having giant meaty hitboxes fits. He'd be pretty ass if he didn't have good hitboxes. Dude's got so many weaknesses, let the man have a few positives.
I do agree that ass grab on dash grab is silly and should probably be removed, but it's a dash grab it's not like it gets much use anyways.
But speaking of grabs, that's one area where he doesn't have that reach (standing grab).
I cannot describe how incredibly frustrating it is to miss a grab because someone directly in front of you did something that moves them slightly forwards. Or to whiff when someone is directly at your feet but in an animation where they're somewhat lowered. I'm not talking about Jigglypuff/Kirby/Snake/Sheik kinda of crouching, it can be someone simply landing in front of you. Ganon cannot shieldgrab Mario's dash attach when every other character in the game can, and I imagine there's probably a few other attacks that are like that. I don't see how people getting away with unsafe things directly in front of one character and no one else is remotely acceptable from a design standpoint.
Sure there's upB OOS, but since that's slower and way more punishable, it's not something that can be used very often.
I often hear the reason for it being so bad is due to dthrow being too godly. This may be true, but I'd like to say two things in answer to that.
The first is that there's plenty of character out there who get so much mileage from their throws and who don't struggle to get the grab in the first place. Either through having a good grab range and/or good mobility and/or the ability to pressure/corner their opponent to open them up for the grab.
And second, if the dthrow is actually just too good, nerf it. I'm not going to deny that it's absurd, it chaingrabs a large portion of the cast, some to ludicrous percents, and allows to free follow up on pretty much everyone. I'd much rather trade how ridiculous dthrow is for the ability to actually get the grab.
I'm not asking for a great grab range, heck make it below average since even a nerfed dthrow will probably still be good, as long as it's not verging on being near useless I'd be happy.
I do agree that ass grab on dash grab is silly and should probably be removed, but it's a dash grab it's not like it gets much use anyways.
But speaking of grabs, that's one area where he doesn't have that reach (standing grab).
I cannot describe how incredibly frustrating it is to miss a grab because someone directly in front of you did something that moves them slightly forwards. Or to whiff when someone is directly at your feet but in an animation where they're somewhat lowered. I'm not talking about Jigglypuff/Kirby/Snake/Sheik kinda of crouching, it can be someone simply landing in front of you. Ganon cannot shieldgrab Mario's dash attach when every other character in the game can, and I imagine there's probably a few other attacks that are like that. I don't see how people getting away with unsafe things directly in front of one character and no one else is remotely acceptable from a design standpoint.
Hit the arrow on the bottom right to start them
And to show that it's not just me being scrubby, here's it happening to Kage
And to show that it's not just me being scrubby, here's it happening to Kage
Sure there's upB OOS, but since that's slower and way more punishable, it's not something that can be used very often.
I often hear the reason for it being so bad is due to dthrow being too godly. This may be true, but I'd like to say two things in answer to that.
The first is that there's plenty of character out there who get so much mileage from their throws and who don't struggle to get the grab in the first place. Either through having a good grab range and/or good mobility and/or the ability to pressure/corner their opponent to open them up for the grab.
And second, if the dthrow is actually just too good, nerf it. I'm not going to deny that it's absurd, it chaingrabs a large portion of the cast, some to ludicrous percents, and allows to free follow up on pretty much everyone. I'd much rather trade how ridiculous dthrow is for the ability to actually get the grab.
I'm not asking for a great grab range, heck make it below average since even a nerfed dthrow will probably still be good, as long as it's not verging on being near useless I'd be happy.
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