Tier List Speculation

[MudkipUniverse]

people were complaining about diddy? ok

 

[Soft Serve]

I don't think bananas are balanced for a character that has a command throw, a projectile, and four spectacular regular throws.

also yeah why is rogue barrel even still a thing at all

I know this is mostly salt/hyperbole

but side-b is a bad move, popgun is a bad projectile (with uses, mostly just harassment, + airdodge), and his throws are all sub par, with only Dthrow being worth mentioning as being good

Without bananas, Diddy has no tools at all to deal with heavy floaties just CCing everything he has, not caring if they get grabbed because they can just DI for dthrow and jump/nair out of anything from upthrow (upthrow is horrible frame wise). Peach/Diddy would be like, 75/25

 

[941]

And the camera is stupid. It makes me not want to take people to Dream Land...

I played against a Zelda yesterday and was confused about why the camera was sometimes being difficult, so thanks for clearing that up.

What are your thoughts on ICs Vs. Zelda? Based on my experience, Zelda's neutral-B seems to beat pretty much everything I try to do, and at this point I'm thinking the best option for ICs is to camp with Ice Blocks and hope the Zelda makes a mistake.

 

[jtm94]

They say Zelda "faired" well against ICs in Melee. It would only be better yes? I've had Zeldas and ICs confirm it, but I don't play the MU ever.

Aftershock was strange. There was no character that felt so entirely overwhelming where I'm poised to view the winner as a villain. It's weird..

 

[941]

They say Zelda "faired" well against ICs in Melee. It would only be better yes? I've had Zeldas and ICs confirm it, but I don't play the MU ever.

I definitely don't think it's a favorable MU for ICs, I'm just trying to figure out if ICs have any decent options, or if the Zelda MU belongs with Peach and Toon Link, in the sense that they aren't really winnable against good players.

 

[Zerudahime]

blah blah blah transform blah blah.

public service announcement:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84SUfl8Yv4k

#theREALzelda

 

[WhiteCrow]

I played against a Zelda yesterday and was confused about why the camera was sometimes being difficult, so thanks for clearing that up.

What are your thoughts on ICs Vs. Zelda? Based on my experience, Zelda's neutral-B seems to beat pretty much everything I try to do, and at this point I'm thinking the best option for ICs is to camp with Ice Blocks and hope the Zelda makes a mistake.

The camera scales to always include Din's Fire, even if it isn't returning to Zelda. So, sometimes when she gets knocked away when the Din starts returning to her it will disconnect and go in a fixed direction, usually into a blast Zone. If we refresh it then it will start returning to her again, but the entire time the camera will freak out to try and keep it in frame. We'll see if that's still around in 3.6

I think Zelda has a winning matchup against IC's, but nothing more than 60/40, maybe closer to 55/45. Nayru's Love, up smash, up tilt, and down smash can all separate the climbers, and Zelda is perfectly capable of eviscerating Nana. The Ice Climbers might have superior movement but we have a teleport and a much more reliable projectile. Fun fact, the hit box of a returning Din's Fire can harm BOTH climbers in one pass by. We can disrupt so many desyncs and grab setups with this alone.


EDIT: Aaand a warm welcome to Zhime for joining us with his riveting feedback.

 

[nimigoha]

Hey look I'm in someone's sig.

I revoke that statement and say that 3.6 will have A and A- now that Olimar and ICs are good.

 

[WhiteCrow]

Hey look I'm in someone's sig.

I revoke that statement and say that 3.6 will have A and A- now that Olimar and ICs are good.

Fixed.

 

[Zerudahime]

@ WhiteCrow

thats what im here for.

 

[WhiteCrow]

@ WhiteCrow

thats what im here for.

<3

It was nice seeing your twitch is still active. Good stuff vs Emoticon at WLG.

 

[Strong Badam]

This is not a social thread. Cmon y'all...

 

[Hylian]

I think IC's vs Zelda is slightly in Zeldas favor, but not by much.

 

[941]

I think Zelda has a winning matchup against IC's, but nothing more than 60/40, maybe closer to 55/45. Nayru's Love, up smash, up tilt, and down smash can all separate the climbers, and Zelda is perfectly capable of eviscerating Nana. The Ice Climbers might have superior movement but we have a teleport and a much more reliable projectile. Fun fact, the hit box of a returning Din's Fire can harm BOTH climbers in one pass by. We can disrupt so many desyncs and grab setups with this alone.

So what exactly can ICs do against Zelda? I can't think of any decent approach options except for maybe spaced F-airs, since Nayru's Love seems to out-range/reflect everything else. Also Zelda's being floaty and having a teleport seems to take away a lot of followup options. I would say trying to bait Nayru's Love would be something, but is there a good way to do it without Nana taking the hit?

 

[Hylian]

So what exactly can ICs do against Zelda? I can't think of any decent approach options except for maybe spaced F-airs, since Nayru's Love seems to out-range/reflect everything else. Also Zelda's being floaty and having a teleport seems to take away a lot of followup options. I would say trying to bait Nayru's Love would be something, but is there a good way to do it without Nana taking the hit?

Ic's approach her the same way they do most characters. Put out iceblocks to force actions, and then use the burst movement of your wavedash to punish with things like jab -> grab/dsmash. You need to abuse her slow speed, and she can also have a rough time landing against them. I mean think about it this way..how does zelda approach IC's? Ic's can outcamp her regardless why do they need to approach instead of just staying midrange looking for openings?

 

[Leafeon]

Soo... ICs top 41 for sure?

 

[Hylian]

Soo... ICs top 41 for sure?

Hard to say. As far as untapped potential I would say they could even be top 10 in the game. They are hard though, it's like learning melee ic's from scratch again. Stuff is STILL being found out about melee IC's, and PM IC's are a whole new territory. It's going to take some really dedicated people to flush out their potential. Even when it's flushed out they'll still get bodied by Peach/TL so *shrugs* lol.

 

[Leafeon]

Hard to say.

So not top 41?

As far as untapped potential I would say they could even be top 10 in the game. They are hard though, it's like learning melee ic's from scratch again. Stuff is STILL being found out about melee IC's, and PM IC's are a whole new territory. It's going to take some really dedicated people to flush out their potential. Even when it's flushed out they'll still get bodied by Peach/TL so *shrugs* lol.

Oh.

 

[steelguttey]

hylian just put in the melee bug where you can set nana's ai level and then win tournaments

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Maybe if you give them that roy treatment

 

[Ningildo]

I can be a campy jerk and not die when getting hit offstage in the middle of doing so.

I am a happy man.

Grab armor confirmed when, tho.

 

[Deleted member]

Just came back from winners finals of aftershock... and I have something to say...

people saying lucario is top tier is probably full of sh*t. IPK tried at least 1.25x as hard as sethlon and still lost the set.

or maybe I just hate roy alot

nah lucario is still tops, top 10 for sure, its just that roy is stupid basically

 

[Juushichi]

I know this is mostly salt/hyperbole

but side-b is a bad move, popgun is a bad projectile (with uses, mostly just harassment, + airdodge), and his throws are all sub par, with only Dthrow being worth mentioning as being good

Without bananas, Diddy has no tools at all to deal with heavy floaties just CCing everything he has, not caring if they get grabbed because they can just DI for dthrow and jump/nair out of anything from upthrow (upthrow is horrible frame wise). Peach/Diddy would be like, 75/25

Softie, I love you but you're kinda crazy on this.

Side B by nature of Diddy's movement is a fantastic tool. Popgun is an extremely underrated projectile that some characters would love to have the usage of (still not the best one), his throws are fantastic for positioning which Diddy takes great advantage of.

His matchups with heavy floaties is a difficult one for sure though, but idk about no tools at all. Upthrow is great as a frametrap and characters who decide to nair or jump out get beaten by sheild (for the regrab) and uptilt (a fantastic move that gets slept on) respectively.

I play Hanky and lose a lot (nothing new to our area), but I believe that Peach/Diddy is a decent matchup. With Bananas it gets harder obviously, but with them it's only a slight disadvantage. Watching Junebug had me come away with so many small optimizations that can be used in just about every matchup he plays.

 

[GabPR]

What was aftershoks top 8?

 

[Rizner]

I played against a Zelda yesterday and was confused about why the camera was sometimes being difficult, so thanks for clearing that up.

What are your thoughts on ICs Vs. Zelda? Based on my experience, Zelda's neutral-B seems to beat pretty much everything I try to do, and at this point I'm thinking the best option for ICs is to camp with Ice Blocks and hope the Zelda makes a mistake.

I play often with fumbles, and it's a bad matchup for ice climbers. I'd put it at least 60-40, and that's even assuming he gets the chain grabs back in 3.6

 

[MudkipUniverse]

nah lucario is still tops, top 10 for sure, its just that roy is stupid basically

yeah, lucario is good, I was just mad

 

[WhiteCrow]

This is not a social thread. Cmon y'all...

Is your commentary on 3.5 Zelda buried somewhere in this thread?

 

[Idostuff]

Aftershock top 16 is the best example to date of how awesomely balanced and diverse Project M 3.5 can be, when there aren't any Melee Fox vets there to ruin everyone's day. Bracket http://aftershock.challonge.com/pmt16.

And yes i know, Westballs played Fox, but he wasn't playing very well i think, and didn't even get to top 16.

 

[Boiko]

nah lucario is still tops, top 10 for sure, its just that roy is stupid basically

This.
Roy's dtilt is just amazing. If it gets changed as we discussed earlier, I think he'll be fine. Still a really good character, but there isn't anything wrong with that.

Also, @ WhiteCrow it's kind of funny that we essentially agree, Zelda is upper half, but not top tier, we just disagree on the overall depth of her combo game. I don't see either one of us changing our minds, so it's kind of a waste of both of our energy.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I know this is mostly salt/hyperbole

but side-b is a bad move, popgun is a bad projectile (with uses, mostly just harassment, + airdodge), and his throws are all sub par, with only Dthrow being worth mentioning as being good

Without bananas, Diddy has no tools at all to deal with heavy floaties just CCing everything he has, not caring if they get grabbed because they can just DI for dthrow and jump/nair out of anything from upthrow (upthrow is horrible frame wise). Peach/Diddy would be like, 75/25

This is pretty silly, dude. Diddy's command grab is an amazing punish and recovery tool. If you're using it to approach, you're using it wrong.

His throws aren't the greatest, but his grab range and DD are ludicrously good (much like Marth, and grab is the foundation of his game), and it's even easier for him to get grabs because of his projectiles - especially the banana.

Good grabs, projectiles, and command grabs are 3 of the best tools to deal with CC in the entire game. I cannot physically comprehend what you're talking about.

 

[Deleted member]

gotta agree with odds, diddy is surprisingly good vs CC for a frail character

 

[CyberZixx]

I love Roy dtilt, but is is easily one of the best moves in the game and probably a little dumb. Coming from playing Marth I was like "wait, every time I hit my main spacing move I get a free conversion that even launchs spacies at 0, this is incredible".

 

[Juushichi]

Launches or puts people into knockdown, yes.

 

[CyberZixx]

Knowdown if they CC it, yeah. Which is annoying but at least you are still in favorable position.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

About time for me to update my tier list.

TIER LIST​

A+: ​

A:
B+:
B:
B-:
C:
Not going to say anything:

yet again don't know where to put zelda/zss

 

[Rizner]

About time for me to update my tier list.

TIER LIST​

A+: ​

A:
B+:
B:
B-:
C:
Not going to say anything:

yet again don't know where to put zelda/zss

Put Zelda between ivy and Lucas.

 

[Boiko]

Will never understand why people sleep so hard on Ness.

 

[Akhenderson]

Will never understand why people sleep so hard on Ness.

It's like no matter how hard we try, no one will view Ness as a mid tier character.
Fine by us really. If we get top 8 at a nationals or something, it'll look more impressive.

EDIT: Not to mention, if people start outcrying that Ness is "good" then our reply is "Told you so."

 

[Boiko]

It's like no matter how hard we try, no one will view Ness as a mid tier character.
Fine by us really. If we get top 8 at a nationals or something, it'll look more impressive.

EDIT: Not to mention, if people start outcrying that Ness is "good" then our reply is "Told you so."

I can't tell you how many people I beat at Shots Fired who were like, "Oh, you're playing Ness?"
Then I combo/tech chase/0-death them with Ness combos complete with baller footstool djc dairs. Plz continue to underrate me when I select Ness and give me a free game one.

 

[The Baron]

Will never understand why people sleep so hard on Ness.

Maybe the negative stigma that comes from the Character as many, especially more casual players, consider him to be pk fire the character instead of Ness destroyer of souls. I dunno, I think he's good and good ness' wreck **** since the character can do alot outside of pk fire.

I can't tell you how many people I beat at Shot's Fired who were like, "Oh, you're playing Ness?"
Then I combo/tech chase/0-death them with Ness combos complete with baller footstool djc dairs. Plz continue to underrate me when I select Ness and give me a free game one.

^