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Maybe the negative stigma that comes from the Character as many, especially more casual players, consider him to be pk fire the character instead of Ness destroyer of souls. I dunno, I think he's good and good ness' wreck **** since the character can do alot outside of pk fire.
This is actually probably correct. Ness is one of the most commonly played characters at a low level. On Long Island, there were five Ness players in one 20 player tournament (25 percent of players). I got second at said tournament, only losing to Animal. One other Ness, who is a solid mid level player (and my homie~), got 7th. The others didn't win a single game because all they did was PK Fire, fair, and dash attack.
Due to Ness' difficulty in playing at a high level, there is very little representation for him.
I was thinking of ness as a 2ndary to my samus. But im lazy and learning that much tech was too much of a burden =p
How do you feel they complement each other?
I'm still trying to find a secondary i like, but noone stacks up to Samus =p
I was thinking of ness as a 2ndary to my samus. But im lazy and learning that much tech was too much of a burden =p
How do you feel they complement each other?
I'm still trying to find a secondary i like, but noone stacks up to Samus =p
They complement each other decently well. It's definitely not the best option though, since they kind of lose to the same characters. I prefer Ness over Samus against Mewtwo, Zelda, Roy (although, I also really like it with Samus), Lucas, Toon Link, Meta Knight, Wario, Charizard, ZSS, Ganondorf... I think that's pretty much it. I prefer Ness against Fox also, but it's definitely not as good of a match up. I just like it.
If you're trying to be completely optimal. I definitely recommend someone else. I use Toon Link also, not so much in tournament yet. I feel like he complements Samus pretty well.
Yea, Toon link is my current 2nd, he has been the best pairing so far. Plus i really like him as a character, so that helps.
But samus has such decent matchups that switching to toon link in a set always feels detrimental.
Agreed. I only switch to Ness because I'm loyal to the kid. I'd probably get better results with Samus though, since she's a better character overall and I'm probably better with her than I am with Ness at this point.
Hard to say. As far as untapped potential I would say they could even be top 10 in the game. They are hard though, it's like learning melee ic's from scratch again. Stuff is STILL being found out about melee IC's, and PM IC's are a whole new territory. It's going to take some really dedicated people to flush out their potential. Even when it's flushed out they'll still get bodied by Peach/TL so *shrugs* lol.
ICs are pretty good theoretically, but they seem to have an unfortunate MU spread, where they lose to the strong/popular characters and have good MUs against the characters that aren't played often. With the exception of Sheik, I don't think they have a favorable MU against any character that's considered top or high tier.
This is actually probably correct. Ness is one of the most commonly played characters at a low level. On Long Island, there were five Ness players in one 20 player tournament (25 percent of players). I got second at said tournament, only losing to Animal. One other Ness, who is a solid mid level player (and my homie~), got 7th. The others didn't win a single game because all they did was PK Fire, fair, and dash attack.
Due to Ness' difficulty in playing at a high level, there is very little representation for him.
There are a lot of Ness players so numbers-wise he's very well represented. A lot of them, however, are not very notable because they don't produce good results. In fact, their under performance gives people the illusion of "Ness being a bad character." But you know. If we keep producing results, EVENTUALLY we'll prove to the majority that Ness is at LEAST mid tier or higher.
There are a lot of Ness players so numbers-wise he's very well represented. A lot of them, however, are not very notable because they don't produce good results. In fact, their under performance gives people the illusion of "Ness being a bad character." But you know. If we keep producing results, EVENTUALLY we'll prove to the majority that Ness is at LEAST mid tier or higher.
I genuinely enjoy seeing high level ness play, so I'll be cheering for every Ness main out there to show everyone he's not as bad as people think he is!
Who do the ness players think is the best ness? My vote goes for Zeej. I have seen him play before, but I caught a match of his on stream at Aftershock and it was a joy to watch. Plus, he uses blue Ness, which is one of the ones I keep coming back to. The only match of Stereo I have seen was the MM at Shots Fired and his opponent was letting him get away with and mess up so much. I haven't seen Boiko play at all. I think the NZA said something about not being the best on a salt mines, but I can't remember exactly what. Bryonoto still plays right?
Who do the ness players think is the best ness? My vote goes for Zeej. I have seen him play before, but I caught a match of his on stream at Aftershock and it was a joy to watch. Plus, he uses blue Ness, which is one of the ones I keep coming back to. The only match of Stereo I have seen was the MM at Shots Fired and his opponent was letting him get away with and mess up so much. I haven't seen Boiko play at all. I think the NZA said something about not being the best on a salt mines, but I can't remember exactly what. Bryonoto still plays right?
Idk, it probably is. Wasn't saying otherwise, just said spike in response to Narpas.
I believe you can generally wait to do the jump so that you've dropped low enough to where most characters won't be able to recover (or maybe even hit the blast zone before being able to meteor cancel).
Umm, not sure. He's played Ness dittos a few times against another Ness player at a local, but I don't think he's gone Ness on stream much. Unfortunately, you can't really tell much from dittos (read: Sethlon v Lunchables Roy dittos)
My point about it being like a spike is that you have to hit them off stage with it in order to dump them. At that point being a command grab makes no difference in the matter, as it's just as easy to jump off stage and dair someone.
So Yea, most spikes aren't command grabs. Good point. And well made.
Who do the ness players think is the best ness? My vote goes for Zeej. I have seen him play before, but I caught a match of his on stream at Aftershock and it was a joy to watch. Plus, he uses blue Ness, which is one of the ones I keep coming back to. The only match of Stereo I have seen was the MM at Shots Fired and his opponent was letting him get away with and mess up so much. I haven't seen Boiko play at all. I think the NZA said something about not being the best on a salt mines, but I can't remember exactly what. Bryonoto still plays right?
Fun fact, that same opponent of Stereo's was incorrectly telling someone how to multishine and I politely corrected him. Then he started being smug and saying how his way was truly optimal with actually saying anything. Then I said, "Are these the techniques you mastered that allowed you to lose $50 to StereoKiDD?" it resulted in me getting cursed out in a PM and blocked on Facebook. Salty I guess.
Anyway, best Ness player is between me and Stereo, no way around it. Stereo has the better recent results though, so I'll give it to him. Lately I feel like my neutral game, reads, etc, have just been better with him still having a crazier punish game. I mean...look at this read: http://gfycat.com/oldfashionedcriminalfennecfox
Zeej is good, definitely just a stones throw behind, if at all. There are areas of his play that can be optimized. He has a very good pressure game, and a solid punish game, but neither are the best I've seen. NZA removed himself from the ranking while he gets himself back into it.
Speaking of Bumblebee, I should mention that when Eli plays Ness, he's pretty godlike. I think his specific Ness stuff could be better, but his overall fundamentals get him so far because he's sooo smart.
I used to think so to, back when I was a scrubby 8 year old playing Ness in melee. Now that I have grown to appreciate the Earthbound/Mother franchise, pj ness and original ness are the best. If you must pick a color that isn't one of those, blue is my favorite.
My point about it being like a spike is that you have to hit them off stage with it in order to dump them. At that point being a command grab makes no difference in the matter, as it's just as easy to jump off stage and dair someone.
So Yea, most spikes aren't command grabs. Good point. And well made.
I got sidetracked but the main reason I find it questionable is because it's also a recovery move. Other recovery moves that meteor, such as a Falco's and Falcon's sideBs, are only ever going to hit when you're in line with the stage (unless you're getting styled on), which generally means you can still be in distance to recover. As I explained before, Diddy can wait to do it a lower point. Now it can be mashed out of, and this may be able to save you at very low percents, but mashing out of a grab and then meteor cancelling properly is a pretty tall order imo.
Now of course there's Ganon's sideB where there is no ability to recover, but since Ganon dies too it's less of an issue as that may not benefit him, and can be used against him by the opponent.
So basically it's probably more likely to kill than Falco and Falcon's, and he can also still upB afterwards which neither of the three other mentioned characters can do.
I got sidetracked but the main reason I find it questionable is because it's also a recovery move. Other recovery moves that meteor, such as a Falco's and Falcon's sideBs, are only ever going to hit when you're in line with the stage (unless you're getting styled on), which generally means you can still be in distance to recover. As I explained before, Diddy can wait to do it a lower point. Now it can be mashed out of, and this may be able to save you at very low percents, but mashing out of a grab and then meteor cancelling properly is a pretty tall order imo.
Now of course there's Ganon's sideB where there is no ability to recover, but since Ganon dies too it's less of an issue as that may not benefit him, and can be used against him by the opponent.
So basically it's probably more likely to kill than Falco and Falcon's, and he can also still upB afterwards which neither of the three other mentioned characters can do.
To be fair, Ganon can also use his side b close to the edge, and put the opponent off stage while he stays on, making shielding by the ledge super dangerous. Plus, his down b is a pseudo recovery move that spikes. And Ness can use his meteor while rising so there's also that.
Idk, I don't think Diddy's command grab is that bad, and that's coming from losing a set to Junebug because he did it to me while I charged PK Thunder.
But I definitely get where you're coming from, it makes sense.
Ganon's Down B hitbox is in his knee. It also goes downwards (why are you edgeguarding from below?) and he can only do it at certain points without dying.
The comparison is super different.
Ness' rising Dair is also under him. He also needs his DJ.
Diddy's command grab has grab armor, goes horizontal, doesn't use DJ, and can use Up-B after.
Ganon's Down B hitbox is in his knee. It also goes downwards (why are you edgeguarding from below?) and he can only do it at certain points without dying.
The comparison is super different.
Ness' rising Dair is also under him. He also needs his DJ.
Diddy's command grab has grab armor, goes horizontal, doesn't use DJ, and can use Up-B after.
The grab priority (it's not armour) isn't actually super relevant, since if you're trading with say, Falco's dair for instance, you're still dead anyways. Though the trade may end up killing him as well, which wouldn't happen to Diddy. But yeah I kinda derped on that earlier, Narpas was right in that regard.
I'm talking about this stuff from the perspective of the character recovering and just incidentally happening to have this occur, so the Ganon sideB on stage thing isn't what I'm talking about. Now something with Ganon that is relevant is when he sideBs to the stage and grabs someone who's onstage and Ganoncides them, that's definitely silly lol.
But anywho yeah I'm not saying it's OP or anything, just that it's something that I believe may merit some tweaking.
Speculation on what changes should happen or are likely to happen is acceptable as an aside to actual tier list discussion, but actually stating that X change will happen is very clearly misleading and doesn't belong here or anywhere on SmashBoards.
I've got no qualms handing out infractions for posting leaked information here or anywhere else, fake or real. Be respectful to the PMDT and discuss the changelist when it comes out, folks.
The grab priority (it's not armour) isn't actually super relevant, since if you're trading with say, Falco's dair for instance, you're still dead anyways. Though the trade may end up killing him as well, which wouldn't happen to Diddy. But yeah I kinda derped on that earlier, Narpas was right in that regard.
I'm talking about this stuff from the perspective of the character recovering and just incidentally happening to have this occur, so the Ganon sideB on stage thing isn't what I'm talking about. Now something with Ganon that is relevant is when he sideBs to the stage and grabs someone who's onstage and Ganoncides them, that's definitely silly lol.
But anywho yeah I'm not saying it's OP or anything, just that it's something that I believe may merit some tweaking.
Yea, sorry about being snarky. Tiredandshouldhavebeeninbedbutstayedonsmashboardstoolongjohns.
But yea, i really don't think it requires tweaking.
characters can have unique tools that are better than other characters. as you said, it's not OP. And ive never seen it as something diddies try to do as their normal closer.
The grab priority (it's not armour) isn't actually super relevant, since if you're trading with say, Falco's dair for instance, you're still dead anyways. Though the trade may end up killing him as well, which wouldn't happen to Diddy. But yeah I kinda derped on that earlier, Narpas was right in that regard.
I'm talking about this stuff from the perspective of the character recovering and just incidentally happening to have this occur, so the Ganon sideB on stage thing isn't what I'm talking about. Now something with Ganon that is relevant is when he sideBs to the stage and grabs someone who's onstage and Ganoncides them, that's definitely silly lol.
But anywho yeah I'm not saying it's OP or anything, just that it's something that I believe may merit some tweaking.
I think Diddy's side-b grab isn't really something people should be getting hit by while Diddy is recovering. This hitbox is kinda really small:
Its not like getting caught by ganon/falcon up-b because you missed spaced your bair, the grab-box is tiny. nearly every move in the game should beat it cleany, expecially if its being spaced well while edgeguarding. Generally, side-b is used at the start of his recovery to get as much horizontal distance while still higher up, so the situation doesn't come up often. Also, in situations where he would neeed to grab the ledge with it, the kick has different grab boxes and goes further, while only having the grab boxes's come out 2 frames later (frame 36 vs 38 of the animation)
The kick has a better grab box horizontally slightly vs the grab's slightly more vertical box, so optimally for sweetspots the grab is going to be lower and less likely to catch people.
I honestly think people who get caught by the command grab box trying to edge guard diddy deserve to eat the spike. But its hard to ballance because in situations when both people are recovering (and in doubles), Diddy has a huge advantage. Similar to falco's side-b, trying to compete with his recovery can be hella scary if you are below him trying to get to the ledge too.
Didddy's monkey flip is a hard move to tweak because every change effects both its onstage usage and its recovery ability. Things like adding extra lendlag on the animation to make it more of a comitment onstage but also nerfs it as a recovery option, while adding landing lag to it to make recovering high with the kick and landing punishable also makes it hella easy to punish on stage even if it hits in a lot of situations. If the jump were to be removed to take out offstage cheese, it would also take out some of his mixups onstage at %s where the atttack stop comboing into things. Luck does a lot of sideb>jump>fast fall bair, which can catch people with bad DI DIng up/in to avoid attack followups, but it loses to people holding shield (it'd also take out jump>banana throw down things to keep tech chases grounded). if it lost mix-ups then the followups off the attack should be helped slightly to compensate imo, but he doesn't need that, as side-b isn't a super great move to begin with on stage but it has uses and you net a lot from it (think raptor boost)
Its not an easy move to balance, and tbh this current version is the most healthy iteration ever. 3.0 had no commitment because no landing lag, 2.6 had no landing lag and a weird tilt/smash input thing, 2.5 you could still activate the kick AFTER the grab box went way lol (which was cool because it let act as an actual sex kick, but toxic).
I feel like some of this might be comming up because June got 2 really good side-b forced gimps, but he had to set it up well on sethlon's roy (used bananas to threaten/control vertical pillars off stage and forcing Roy to do a vertical side-b instead of the more horizontal reaching angle). Sethlon also DI'd it in and wall tech jumped and recovered on the second time (really good adaptation and reactions on his part). Its also strictly still worse than fox doing invincible shine>bairs from the ledge soooo
Its kinda cheesy but people shouldn't be getting hit by a diddy recovering with it, due to when the move is normally used and how diddy recovers (high and ledge cancel the up-b, mid and sweatspot from being parallel to the ledge, or go low and try to get to a wall, mix up their timings on punishing up-b with a wall cling/jump). Also the grab boxes are very negativly disjointed, not active very long and the animation is easily punishable afterwards.
Diddy is in a good spot right now I think, its actually hard to tell because I feel he is still inflated slightly due to the lack of complete item control mastery by people who dont play item characters. His MU spread isn't perfect atm either for this meta, but like that could change. If some weird shift happens and spacies fall off really hard and big bodies+Fire emblem take over, DIddy would be a monster Mu spread wise.
I've thought the sideB stuff was silly for a long while I was just reminded of it from that set. I suppose the fact that I forgot about it says a lot though lol.
What you said makes sense and either way it's not something that occurs frequently so I guess it's fine.
