Tier List Speculation

[PlateProp]

I got you bro. Squirtles nair duh real mvp though.

View attachment 45607

Yeh, I didn't bring this up because it was a problem. I just always play people that have no idea how good their priority is then I show them the sleeping bag, and they freak out. Just spreading the knowledge breh.

Reminder that Squirtle's tail is intangible during the hitboxes lelelel.

Edit - Triggering PlateProp yesssss

Squirtle's tail isn't super huge or anything. You can hit him out of it. Like every other single move cause small hitboxes

 

[GP&B]

Increase KBG on DThrow, counterbalance the BKB to average out the range at which the throw will toss someone early on, then move the grab boxes down.

Bam, less functionally stupid DThrow with less overwhelming CG's but still insanely good followup potential.

 

[Bazkip]

Increase KBG on DThrow, counterbalance the BKB to average out the range at which the throw will toss someone early on, then move the grab boxes down.

Bam, less functionally stupid DThrow with less overwhelming CG's but still insanely good followup potential.

This would be pretty much perfect.

I do still think he should have a bit more horizontal reach though, I know there's characters with less than him but most of them have good mobility. So while they also can't use grab as an effective defensive option they can still use it offensively, while Ganon just gets neither. They're also all characters who simply have short arms, so it makes sense, whereas Ganon doesn't fit into that.

But yeah the vertical grab whiffing and dthrow being generally stupid are bigger problems than the horizontal reach, so I could live without it.

 

[DrinkingFood]

wow looking at ROB's hitboxes they are surprising un-ridiculous compared to the melee chars
closest thing is usmash which has ridiculous launcher hitboxes... that only hit the ground
For one, fix that **** it's stupid that my "anti-air" flat out misses in certain situations because the launcher hitbox doesn't connect on airborne opponents
For two, give ROB ridic hitboxes please
my ftilt should be a single hitbox that stretches from my torso to my fist, that way it'll be as tall as it is long
and make my dtilt last for more than a single frame and actually cover the body. Roy's dtilt covers like his head wtf gimme
also s/o to my fsmash lasting 2 frames while the graphical effect lasts 9

 

[DrugsM2]

Wolf's dash is faster than CF's for literally a single frame. Dash Initial Velocity is almost negligible because they immediately begin accelerating to Dash/Run Terminal at Accel A+B which takes only a few frames at most usually. Sonic's DD works differently because he has a modified Dash/Run Terminal during initial dash that you can't see (2.5 iirc?) so he's not DDing at nearly double CF speed.

Hey can you please expand on this? Maybe even in a PM, im a Sonic main and ive been messing with his dash and the strange properties it has for nearely a year now and id really really love some explanation as to why some things happen the way they do, pretty please lol

If his initial dash was 4 then we would all main sonic

I'd like to offer you technology that will get you to main sonic then
Moonwalk = run speed while in dash, just moonwalk forward

Been meaning to test if you can footstool out of Down B for Sonic. Can anyone check this?

and yes you can but you have to be in the aerial form and your jump just becomes a normal DJ so it becomes down-b makes contact>(Trickiest part, gotta learn the timings at which you have to jump in order to footstool different tumble animations/percents/fall speeds and what not)>next frame footstool>next frame whatever
https://gfycat.com/ChubbySilverBream

 

[Ariyo]

Is it impossible to make Fox and Falco's lasers non-transcendent? I feel like that would have been a thought at some point

 

[CORY]

I remember hearing about a build with nontranscendent falco lasers and how it was quickly reverted because they became the best antiprojectile projectile in the game, while also still being almost as dumb as they usually are.

 

[Foo]

@ Beorn You compiled stupid hitboxes and didn't even include game and watch? Come on, what are you thinking?! Pls make one for him so everyone can see how ******** he is.

 

[GP&B]

I mean look at this. The grab boxes are so high up. I know Marth's not the best comparison because Marth but I'm pretty sure a lot of characters' grab boxes are low like this.

Spoiler

EDIT: More normal examples with other tall characters:

Spoiler

 

[Binary Clone]

@ Beorn You compiled stupid hitboxes and didn't even include game and watch? Come on, what are you thinking?! Pls make one for him so everyone can see how ******** he is.

Still images don't do GnW justice, because a lot of the stupidity comes from how long his hitboxes stay out.

Spoiler: ftilt

Spoiler: dtilt

Spoiler: fsmash

Spoiler: dsmash

Spoiler: nair

Spoiler: fair

Spoiler: bair

Spoiler: uair

Spoiler: dair

Spoiler: neutralb

Spoiler: sideb (judgement)

Spoiler: downb

As you can see, it's fairly clear from this that though GnW does have a lot of disjoints, a lot of them seem less stupid compared the the above example images... The problem comes from some animations not quite matching the hitboxes (most notable dtilt) which makes them look safer or longer-lasting than they really are. Almost all of his hitboxes match animations in size, though, with only fair and dtilt really being substantially bigger than they appear, while some are actually smaller than they appear, like his dair.

The stupidest thing about Gnw (in my opinion) that really needs to be changed are his throw animations, which are practically indistinguishable.

Frame data pulled from here.

 

[Foo]

with only fair and dtilt really being substantially bigger than they appear

Bruh....

 

[Binary Clone]

Bruh....

Yeah, but it also doesn't come out until frame 20. I honestly don't think the hitbox extending into his body makes a huge difference. Maybe it would be better to have three hitboxes more exclusively on the parachute, but I don't see this actually being much of a problem.

 

[Juushichi]

none of it is an actual problem

 

[Foo]

Yeah, but it also doesn't come out until frame 20. I honestly don't think the hitbox extending into his body makes a huge difference. Maybe it would be better to have three hitboxes more exclusively on the parachute, but I don't see this actually being much of a problem.

I was just responding to this

with only fair and dtilt really being substantially bigger than they appear

I'm not talking about what's a problem or not, but nair is SO much bigger than it looks.

 

[didds]

none of it is an actual problem

well maybe the animations and hitboxes not matching up is, but yea besides that, eh

 

[Soft Serve]

Have you guys SEEN zss's hitboxes? Her jab one is larger than anything diddy has. Nair is the size of 2 ike swords, uptilt is bigger than her own body


Tldr, hitbox sizes don't matter overall, because speed/where you put them is more important

 

[Boiko]

Have you guys SEEN zss's hitboxes? Her jab one is larger than anything diddy has. Nair is the size of 2 ike swords, uptilt is bigger than her own body


Tldr, hitbox sizes don't matter overall, because speed/where you put them is more important

Have you seen her up smash and forward smash? Hilarious.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Also worth noting, that knee grab box is necessary for it to work properly. Grab boxes (and hitboxes on places like shoulders) look stupid, but are necessary for the move to function properly. For the dorf, he already struggles with short characters, aerial side b would be useless against them without it. This was brought up on the boards recently and everyone agreed. As for giant hitbubbles melee characters, if it were on anybody else it would be broken. With them, we know we can deal with it. It would be janky if someone like Squirtle had this...

Just to let you know, you can grab every single crouching character in the game with the grab box located on his arm, including the ones with small crouches like shiek, g&w, kirby, mk, squirtle, and even samus in her morph ball, you just have to time it so he's pretty low to the ground. The grab boxes on his head and knee do nothing but make hitting with the move visually confusing and usage of it extremely sloppy.

 

[Foo]

Have you guys SEEN zss's hitboxes? Her jab one is larger than anything diddy has. Nair is the size of 2 ike swords, uptilt is bigger than her own body


Tldr, hitbox sizes don't matter overall, because speed/where you put them is more important

We aren't talking about hitbox size, we are talking about the size compared to the animation. The hitbox of a move should match the animation as closely as possible for obvious reasons. I mean, remember mario's old dair?

(also, her nair is nowhere near as big as you are saying. The forward one is about the same range as her jab. Someone show her hitboxes since I don't have the ability to right now. Her hitboxes match to the animations pretty well, though. Uptilt has a low launching hitbox because it needs that to function and upsmash first and last hits has a slightly low launching hitbox that doesn't quite match the animation. Other than that, what you see is what you get.)

(EDIT: Up-b also has a launching hitbox on her body)

 

[Oracle]

Wow everyones arguing about how big your hitboxes are. Just remember that theres nothing wrong with having an average hitbox; its how you use it that counts

 

[didds]

heck, there are characters that perform well even with small hitboxes!

 

[Beorn]

Anyone that says hitbubble size doesn't matter is very wrong. You attack then they attack then you get the hit= Priority. Priority is a huge matchup decider.

Yeah, game and watch's hitbubbles aren't that different from the rest of the cast (save the brawl characters in general) It is the data attached to them that makes them stupid. Sometimes very stupid, like ftilt.

What pickle said about ganons aerial side-b. Having grab bubbles where he has them doesn't allow him anything he couldn't do with the hitbubbles that make sense. It just allows ganon mains to play sloppy and get away with it. Much like warios, now removed, Ass grab box on aerial bite. I wasn't trying to get any hitbubbles changed with my posts, but that knee grab bubble is dumb and needs to be removed, or shifted up.

If anyone would like to see it I could do a compilation of the saddest hitbubbles in the game. It really brings things into perspective. just trying to Improve the game knowledge of the community.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Anyone that says hitbubble size doesn't matter is very wrong. You attack then they attack then you get the hit= Priority. Priority is a huge matchup decider.

That's not fair. There's more to the story of a move than how big the hit bubbles are, as mentioned before.

 

[Binary Clone]

Anyone that says hitbubble size doesn't matter is very wrong.

I think they were making penis jokes.

But you're right in that context too.

I agree, though. Even though many if not most of them aren't really balance issues, but tweaks that would reward tighter play instead of allowing sloppy spacing.

 

[JOE!]

Real talk, why do people say Link sucks in 3.5?

 

[Boiko]

Anyone that says hitbubble size doesn't matter is very wrong. You attack then they attack then you get the hit= Priority. Priority is a huge matchup decider.

You could have the biggest and most disjointed hit boxes around, but if you have significant end lag or start ups on your moves, it's not going to make that much a difference. Your example is specific to trades and trades alone.

 

[Foo]

You could have the biggest and most disjointed hit boxes around, but if you have significant end lag or start ups on your moves, it's not going to make that much a difference. Your example is specific to trades and trades alone.

The point isn't that a moves range is the ONLY thing that matters, that's absurd. I also hope you aren't suggesting that a move's range isn't important at all. The main thing we (or at least I) were talking about were moves that's hitboxes didn't match up with their animation. That is just poor design, plain and simple. A players shouldn't have to look up the frame data to know where a move is gonna hit, that's the whole point of animations. Having significant discrepancies with this leads to players getting frustrated and hating a character (see, game and watch salt.) It also doesn't help that on some stages some of game and watch's skins are really hard to see.

So, yes, his example is specific to trades, but the difference between a move trading and outright beating another moves based on hitbubble size can matter a whole hell of a lot. You can avoid situations where that happens of course, but not being able to directly challenge a move where you could have if it had a smaller bubble makes a big difference.

 

[JOE!]

One of the few things Smash4 did right is have those motion effects and such to show pretty much where the moves will hit.

 

[Boiko]

The point isn't that a moves range is the ONLY thing that matters, that's absurd. I also hope you aren't suggesting that a move's range isn't important at all. The main thing we (or at least I) were talking about were moves that's hitboxes didn't match up with their animation. That is just poor design, plain and simple. A players shouldn't have to look up the frame data to know where a move is gonna hit, that's the whole point of animations. Having significant discrepancies with this leads to players getting frustrated and hating a character (see, game and watch salt.) It also doesn't help that on some stages some of game and watch's skins are really hard to see.

So, yes, his example is specific to trades, but the difference between a move trading and outright beating another moves based on hitbubble size can matter a whole hell of a lot. You can avoid situations where that happens of course, but not being able to directly challenge a move where you could have if it had a smaller bubble makes a big difference.

Of course that's not what I'm saying.
What I'm saying is hit bubbles aren't the only thing you should be considering when analyzing individual moves. There are a lot of other key components, such as start up/end lag. For example:

Spoiler: dtilt

Note all of the time you have to punish the end of that. Yes, the hit box doesn't match the animation. No, it's not a huge deal.

 

[JOE!]

It is annoying though since unless you looked at the frame data there you would not know when it stopped hitting intuitively.

 

[Broccoli]

We aren't talking about hitbox size, we are talking about the size compared to the animation. The hitbox of a move should match the animation as closely as possible for obvious reasons.

Except for the fact that ZSS upsmash hitboxes are still out when the whip is BACK IN HER POCKET.

It is annoying though since unless you looked at the frame data there you would not know when it stopped hitting intuitively.

git gud /s

 

[TreK]

Anyone that says hitbubble size doesn't matter is very wrong. You attack then they attack then you get the hit= Priority. Priority is a huge matchup decider.

Hitbubble size is not what decides this. A trade is won by whoever puts a hitbubble inside the opponent's hurtbubbles first.
Ivy's bair and Marth's fair pretty much have the exact same hitboxes, but Marth extends his arm into the hitbox during his fair, so it's less disjointed than Ivy's bair.
Similarly, Lucas's zair is pretty much the smallest hitbox in the game (that I know of), but since it's so far away from his body, it can still be used to outrange many ground moves.
Disjointedness is what matters most.

Except for the fact that ZSS upsmash hitboxes are still out when the whip is BACK IN HER POCKET.

I believe that's just a graphic glitch.

 

[JOE!]

@ TreK : Disjoint does matter a lot, and its why those "big hitboxes" are good seeing as the outer bubbles make the move have some form of disjoint.

 

[Beorn]

Of course that's not what I'm saying.
What I'm saying is hit bubbles aren't the only thing you should be considering when analyzing individual moves. There are a lot of other key components, such as start up/end lag. For example:

Spoiler: dtilt

Note all of the time you have to punish the end of that. Yes, the hit box doesn't match the animation. No, it's not a huge deal.

Of course not. I would have to be pretty simple minded and be pretty bad at this game to think hitbubble size is the only thing that matters. I was using one example to say it does in fact matter a lot. I could give more examples, but I don't think it would be hard to argue against people saying they don't matter.

The main reason I brought these up to begin with are... Those moves on the melee high\top tiers I compiled, DO have great speed low endlag or drag those giant hitbubbles in a huge ark. Shieks ftilt for instance is a great example. Not only is it super fast, low endlag, great at comboing, and setting up for edge gaurds, It is also huge and disjointed for no good reason.

If you gave sonic, shieks hitbubbles, or most of the cast for that matter. They would all be ridiculous. Hitbubble size and disjoint matter a great deal, even disregarding the fact that it's confusing.

^^ What he said about disjoints. Having big hitbubbles on small models means having huge disjoints.

 

[Deleted member]

I'd like to offer you technology that will get you to main sonic then
Moonwalk = run speed while in dash, just moonwalk forward

I actually already really like sonic, hes one of my pocket/secondary characters. I don't have a place for him in tournament but hes really cool.

 

[supascoot]

You only like him because he's blue.

 

[trash?]

why are we talking about disjointed dongs

don't disjoint your d that sounds painful

 

[.alizarin]

this is ridiculous lol

the point of an animation is to indicate where hitboxes and hurtboxes are in relation to the environment, are they not? i don't have an issue with hitbox size, nor do i think characters are "op" or w/e because of the size of their hitboxes. is it too much to ask that an animation serve its purpose, though? come on.

 

[Foo]

Hitbubble size is not what decides this. A trade is won by whoever puts a hitbubble inside the opponent's hurtbubbles first.
Ivy's bair and Marth's fair pretty much have the exact same hitboxes, but Marth extends his arm into the hitbox during his fair, so it's less disjointed than Ivy's bair.
Similarly, Lucas's zair is pretty much the smallest hitbox in the game (that I know of), but since it's so far away from his body, it can still be used to outrange many ground moves.
Disjointedness is what matters most.

Yeah, priority equals the distance between the outmost hitbox and the outmost hurtbox. Let's say marth fsmash reaches a distance of 3. When he does the move, let's say he extends his arm (hurtbox) foward 1. That would mean marth's fsmash would have 2 priority.

However, having bigger bubbles does increase priority.

Except for the fact that ZSS upsmash hitboxes are still out when the whip is BACK IN HER POCKET.

It doesn't actually though. There's an issue where moves like that (articles?) hitboxes don't display correctly and hang out for a second longer than they actually do. I just realized that may be why softie though zss nair had so much range. The hitboxes actually only stay out for 1 frame.

this is ridiculous lol

the point of an animation is to indicate where hitboxes and hurtboxes are in relation to the environment, are they not? i don't have an issue with hitbox size, nor do i think characters are "op" or w/e because of the size of their hitboxes. is it too much to ask that an animation serve its purpose, though? come on.

Well said.

 

[Warzenschwein]

Gdubs' hitbox jank is just supposed to simulate the fact that your character can't see a goddamn thing while facing him because he's two-dimensional.