Tier List Speculation

[JOE!]

ripple just ****ing beat westballz because he got a gordo what are you talking about

Thats sorta the issue too. DDD can get screwed by a Gordo as can his opponent, for no reason other than he happened to do what he was normally trying to do and it suddenly had drastic effects.

 

[Leafeon]

You must be blind if you think that the gordo was the only reason Ripple won that set. There was plenty he could have done off of a normal waddledee hit as well. West made it back to stage before Ripple even retaliated on the gordo.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Props to Ripple. I am sure he will use this as evidence for his claim that DDD has a decent matchup with spacies. I was really sad when they played in pools cuz ripple was playing very poorly. Then when the rematch happens his edge fame actually started to come together and it made a massive difference.

 

[.alizarin]

are we talking about rng again

moves that either get you punished or get you a punish depend entirely on when the game disc is in a good mood

seems okay to me

oracle please respond

 

[Apollo Ali]

Top DDD's gets top 8 or at least 16 at literally every national they go to.

#StopSleepingOnThePenguin2015

 

[Ripple]

Aftershock isn't looking good for me and DDD.

Good zss and Ivy's abound

nevermind.

 

[CORY]

Usage =/= How good they are..

See: Wolf, Samus

and ganon >.>

like, 18 ganons in pm singles, not a single one made it out of pools, afaik (other than junebug, but he's a dirty heathen who uses other characters).

 

[Boiko]

Just managed to catch up with this thread. If you guys don't see how Zelda is an extremely solid character (not top tier), I don't know what to tell you. I don't care if you think her "blind spot between Din's and Nayru's is super exploitable" you realize she has intangibility frames on Nayru's, has a five frame kick that has long range, has a good OoS option, and more importantly that not every character can threaten that zone. Like, it doesn't matter if a character has a blind spot if the opponent can't do anything about it. Zelda forces players to approach her. Those with high mobility, such as Falcon, Fox, and Wolf can quickly close that gap and punish her before she can even think about committing to something. However, she also does an amazing job of shutting down approaches and has some of the best baby mode combos around. Let me up smash you three times into my 19% uair. Oh you have, 75% now? Well, you better not approach because you may trade with a kick. Oh, you can't camp because my projectile is better than yours, and watch out, it's coming behind you and forcing you react to two threats at once.

You don't NEED mobility if you have incredible defensive options. She does. She's an amazing defensive character, and she loses to characters that can invalidate that. She beats characters that can't. Zelda is fine as is.

Edit: And for the record, I have plenty of Zelda experience (Malachi, Vanz, Face) and in no way am I complaining about the character.

 

[Juushichi]

nevermind.

Well done, Rip. Glad to see someone repping the King and also someone else getting shreked by a gordo.

 

[Magus420]

Let me up smash you three times

Bolded for emphasis. Waiting for when people figure out that holding left/right on this move is usually bad combo DI.

 

[Boiko]

and ganon >.>

like, 18 ganons in pm singles, not a single one made it out of pools, afaik (other than junebug, but he's a dirty heathen who uses other characters).

Being perfectly honest. I feel like 80 percent of PM players are just generally bad and get by because almost the entire cast is strong and the game itself is reasonably forgiving. There are some, that go against this, of course, that goes without saying. But it also explains why melee players can pick up the game, play Fox and run train through great PM players with little to no match up experience.

Bolded for emphasis. Waiting for when people figure out that holding left/right on this move is usually bad combo DI.

See above. ^

 

[demonictoonlink]

Well, a lot of PM players have great spacing and mindgames from brawl, but are still relatively new to raw rushdown pressure from melee

 

[trash?]

I-I was joking about the RNG. even from an "RNG is bad and rude" standpoint, wes let ripple run wild with waddles for so long that a gordo was kinda inevitable anyhow, and even if it wasn't, I'm pretty sure any waddle would have been easily crossed into a bthrow grab mixup on the other side

super funny how he somehow got three different gordos within like twenty seconds though, even if the first two only ended up being ways of getting wes to back off quickly and nothing more

 

[Sardonyx]

Just managed to catch up with this thread. If you guys don't see how Zelda is an extremely solid character (not top tier), I don't know what to tell you. I don't care if you think her "blind spot between Din's and Nayru's is super exploitable" you realize she has intangibility frames on Nayru's, has a five frame kick that has long range, has a good OoS option, and more importantly that not every character can threaten that zone. Like, it doesn't matter if a character has a blind spot if the opponent can't do anything about it. Zelda forces players to approach her. Those with high mobility, such as Falcon, Fox, and Wolf can quickly close that gap and punish her before she can even think about committing to something. However, she also does an amazing job of shutting down approaches and has some of the best baby mode combos around. Let me up smash you three times into my 19% uair. Oh you have, 75% now? Well, you better not approach because you may trade with a kick. Oh, you can't camp because my projectile is better than yours, and watch out, it's coming behind you and forcing you react to two threats at once.

You don't NEED mobility if you have incredible defensive options. She does. She's an amazing defensive character, and she loses to characters that can invalidate that. She beats characters that can't. Zelda is fine as is.

Edit: And for the record, I have plenty of Zelda experience (Malachi, Vanz, Face) and in no way am I complaining about the character.

She has invincibility frames on the ground ONLY so if you bait out the move, you can punish. Her kick's sweetspot is deceptive since her actual foot is a sourspot, it's kinda like this weird crescent moon thing around her foot that hits, so they have to space farther away, and if you bait that out or if they miss, you can try an punish. Her "good oos" option is something I don't really see. IIRC, farore's has a good amount of startup, Nayru's oos is meh, usmash out of shield is okay, her kicks will most likely hit on the sourspot oos, and that's all she can really do. Now if you actually read what I said, I said she is a good character, but she does have weaknesses that people seem to completely ignore. Yes not every character can threaten that awkward zone, but if you approach smartly, you'll do reasonably well in trapping a zelda trying to make her escape. I also think her up smash is completely stupid this patch, so that should have something done to it.

Do you seriously think that Zelda can't be camped? It takes time for her to place it behind her opponent if they're close, you can hit it so it auto returns and she has to redo the positioning move, something idk. Zelda can be camped. She might have nayru's, but the grounded version has a good amount of lag afterwards where she can be hit with another projectile. Aerial nayru's might be able to land cancel, but repeatedly short hopping then doing that still won't put you in a good position.

Pretty much what I'm saying: Zelda is a good character, but she has exploitable weaknesses that are noticeable. She can put in some work if you learn her, but you'll struggle at higher levels of competitive play. I don't even main her anymore and I know this.

 

[supascoot]

Posting my revised tier list. Criticism welcome

S

A


Everyone else

F
Dan

For srs tho, Westballz didn't seem like he knew how to play the MU, nor did he adapt properly. While its nice that a DDD won something big in a tourney, it shows that something is wrong when a fox can play braindead and disregard matchups and still come out close to top. Even down to stage selection, westballz messed up, but that didn't matter until the very end where clutch rng managed to save ripple

 

[AceGamer]

Posting my revised tier list. Criticism welcome

S

A


Everyone else

F
Dan

For srs tho, Westballz didn't seem like he knew how to play the MU, nor did he adapt properly. While its nice that a DDD won something big in a tourney, it shows that something is wrong when a fox can play braindead and disregard matchups and still come out close to top. Even down to stage selection, westballz messed up, but that didn't matter until the very end where clutch rng managed to save ripple

Lmao!! ^ this X'D

 

[eideeiit]

To be fair, it's not like he disregarded MUs. He clearly played it like the Jiggs MU should be played in Melee.

Whether that MU is braindead or not is something I'm not really qualified to comment on.

 

[Soft Serve]

Posting my revised tier list. Criticism welcome

S

A


Everyone else

F
Dan

For srs tho, Westballz didn't seem like he knew how to play the MU, nor did he adapt properly. While its nice that a DDD won something big in a tourney, it shows that something is wrong when a fox can play braindead and disregard matchups and still come out close to top. Even down to stage selection, westballz messed up, but that didn't matter until the very end where clutch rng managed to save ripple

This is a rediculous thought process. You're saying that in a set that went litterally last hit last stock, westballz didn't adapt at all, and got completely carried by fox. Thats just flat out wrong, watch the vod, after the first game comeback westballz played incredibly more defencive and stayed away from the ledges. Saying a top player didn't adapt is silly, you can clearly see that he started running away once he felt threatened by DDDs ledge game.

Not initially knowing a MU but still almost winning doesn't have anything to do with fox, because that mu is good for ddd.

Stage wise I don't get what you mean, Ps2 was a great cp, then he probably banned fd or ghz for game 3. Dreamland is a Risky cp for ripple because it give fox to move, and ripple seemed to be banking on punishing approaches and take quick gimps instead of locking fox down

 

[Boiko]

If Fox plays brain dead he'll get bodied since the entire cast punishes him so hard.

 

[pkblaze]

Westballz's main problem that set seems to be that he couldn't figure out how to edgeguard DDD, and instead had to rely on punishing Ripple coming off the ledge over and over.

 

[PootisKonga]

It was a great set

But all those damn nairplanes looked so weird

 

[TheGravyTrain]

lAlso, Ripple has said many times that against certain characters/people you shouldn't CP DL even if available because you trade being camped harder for better survivability.

 

[Rizner]

Haven't read everything since my last post. These are the only alerts I've noticed since then, so I'll comment on these.

Interesting stance. You speak like Zelda and Sheik are still recognized as one character. Some people here feel differently, what do you say about them?

People play characters differently. The discussion here is for shielda as a character, so that's what I'm responding to. I think of them more as separate characters generally.

Wait wait I get what you're saying here but are we just ignoring the existence of Pokemon Trainer and the fact that they removed that?

I did exclude them. I forgot about that whole thing. My b.

 

[GabPR]

It's mostly the range of Bowser's dash attack. Sonic just has no way to ever really get in on Bowser. His DD is great, but because he doesn't really have any terribly threatening spacing options, the only things Bowser really needs to watch for are grab (which is very close range and necessitates that Sonic be far, far inside Bowser's threat zone) and aerials (with which bowser can trade very favorably and easily).

I could, of course, be wrong; and this is all theorycraft as I'm both the best Bowser and the best Sonic in my region by far ( =/ ), but it's not like that MU's meta is particularly advanced anywhere at all.

Pretty late on reply but... Sonic has the option of running towards you, shiel and grab, his running speed makes it so when he shields while runnin he will slide foward rather far. This is incredibly easy to do and it pretty much negates a lot of Bowsers options and combines greatly with his dd game and running speed, which should not be underestimated.

His grab game on bowser is also a combo fest for Sonic. Taking him to the edge,high percents and if they dont know how to di his grabs there are plenty of 0 to deaths. Bowser can kill Sonic at rather low percents, but he does so with any other character, and you have to get a solid hit on Sonic first.

 

[Rizner]

"it doesn't change tournament results"

because bad design doesn't need to explicitly affect balance to be bad design. kirbicides did not need to actually be good to be bad design.

we are not telling you that it's going to break the game. we're telling you it's meaningless and only clung onto by people who don't understand why a different downb would actually be of any use.

zelda players complain about anything that changes their character, to the point that they have complained in this thread when they gained tech in 3.5



have you considered that you'll have a button to do that by removing this

I am horribly offended that a god damn PMDT member needs explaining that, in a game where we obsess over control so much that we will remove all variants of non-control in the rules, a move who's frame data depends entirely on what SD card you're using is lazy design

She overall lost tech, and the up b cancel you mentioned actually gives less options in situations where the cancel was used previously.
Also his response was that it is consistent if you follow their install instructions, so that goes against the whole super angry part at the end.

@ trash? damn that was a solid post. You're coming to NWM7 right? I'd like to shake your hand in an irl fashion.

I really don't understand why zelda mains (read: Zhime) get so up in arms over every little change. I've invested by far more time into Bowser than anyone, and I'm pushing for total goddamn overhaul. Most of the time it is totally possible for your character to endure changes and even normalizations without the Apocalypse occurring, and even without your character becoming a totally flavorless, generic mannequin.

I have no idea how to fix Zelda, but it seems pretty obvious that she's rather bad right now, and equally obvious that if she's good, her matchup spread, when combined with Sheik's, will make her problematic. Bad enough to warrant removal of Transform? Maybe, maybe not.

Sheik's chain needs to go, though. Maybe if she took minor nerfs in other aspects of her kit, she could get a useful, interesting new tool instead of totally dead weight?

My biggest gripe with current Zelda is that she isn't as fun to use as before. She used to be played in a way that had pros and cons and could be played in different spacial areas effectively. At this point, her long options are slow to use and move around, and I am very against the new Dins mechanic as an entity when it comes to design. I think that's a bigger 'doesn't belong in this game' element than transform by far.
For an argument about her balance, she no longer has an area where she excels. She's ok at a lot of stuff, but just has pretty polarizing matchups imo. She loses really hard to those who can put out pressure or have better projectiles imo, and can't approach most of the cast. Before she was able to kinda manage the flow and modify space a lot more, but now she loses to people who are just patient as well. I think she also has really bad matchups against the top characters (fox, falcon, shiek, etc) which makes me believe that a solo Zelda will not be able to win a regional/national.
To make her better for me, I would like the 3.02 din mechanic back, but nerfed from what it was in this new environment. I've mentioned this a long time ago, but I am in support of doing something like don't let her refresh after max fireballs are out, shielding them makes them disappear, and if in the next version that's still too string then put the number down to 2 instead of 3. I would also like her grab startup slightly increased (iirc she has second longest grab range outside of tether, but the longest or one of the longest startups and like... twice the startup time when compared to most of the cast?). I also enjoyed the old airdodge out of up b mechanic (it only happened before when starting from the ground) and would like it back, but do understand its removal and think it's more of an entertainment thing than one being better than the other. It would be nice if her cancel could better sweetspot ledges, because right now she has a super hard time when recovering from low.

Personally I think she's balanced ok now, but I do not enjoy her and the way she works with the 3.5 changes so I've mostly stopped playing her.

Just managed to catch up with this thread. If you guys don't see how Zelda is an extremely solid character (not top tier), I don't know what to tell you. I don't care if you think her "blind spot between Din's and Nayru's is super exploitable" you realize she has intangibility frames on Nayru's, has a five frame kick that has long range, has a good OoS option, and more importantly that not every character can threaten that zone. Like, it doesn't matter if a character has a blind spot if the opponent can't do anything about it. Zelda forces players to approach her. Those with high mobility, such as Falcon, Fox, and Wolf can quickly close that gap and punish her before she can even think about committing to something. However, she also does an amazing job of shutting down approaches and has some of the best baby mode combos around. Let me up smash you three times into my 19% uair. Oh you have, 75% now? Well, you better not approach because you may trade with a kick. Oh, you can't camp because my projectile is better than yours, and watch out, it's coming behind you and forcing you react to two threats at once.

You don't NEED mobility if you have incredible defensive options. She does. She's an amazing defensive character, and she loses to characters that can invalidate that. She beats characters that can't. Zelda is fine as is.

Edit: And for the record, I have plenty of Zelda experience (Malachi, Vanz, Face) and in no way am I complaining about the character.

Most of my response is above. She's balanced ok, has problems but having problems doesn't mean she isn't in an ok place.

But your arguments seem good on paper but aren't really good in practice unless people get outplayed. She has intangibility on grounded nayrus, but grounded nayrus isn't a good option unless you get a hard read on someone. If you miss a grounded nayru against someone, you should get punished really, really hard.
Her kicks are good, that's a valid argument
The OoS option you're referring to is up smash I assume. It's good against some of the cast, but if they're standing or on the ground they can DI out and get a punish. Also smaller characters aren't near that hitbox, which removes the good option.
Zelda can't force a large portion of the cast to approach. If people are just patient, the dins can easily be negated when used as a approach forcing option.

She gets good combos against a lot of the fast fallers, but getting that initial hit is, for most of them, just a wait for a mistake and capitalize. That's not really a good option to have.

 

[skellitorman]

This is just plain wrong. You never get guaranteed grabs or side b's. Ever. Plain and simple. Side b has 12 frames of startup and ASC takes 17 frames, so neither kind of grab ever is free. It is relatively reasonable to expect frame perfect inputs for buffered spot dodges/rolls and for the Lucario player (cancels can be buffered during hitlag). Fsmash is Lucario's highest damage move, but doesn't line up with the spacing of side b. Even if it did, it does 9 frames of shield stun. Buffer spot dodge avoids that. A more reasonable move to land on shield would be nair, even though it comes out frame 9. Strong nair does 15, which does 8 frames of shield stun. That still can be buffer spot dodge to escape. If you are talking about normal grabs, ASC is not broken. People think its way better then it actually is. Go into debug, input nB, which has a hitbox frame 3 iirc (and thats bad for shield pressure because shield stun doesn't stack, so it cancels it out...) and you can cancel on like frame 14 and that takes 3 frames before you can act. This is all of the top of my head, but that makes it a FAF of 18. Plus 7 frames for grab and that's 25 frames.

I have made a very large post regarding this a few months ago. But here is the relevant information:

"It is true that Lucario has no moves that can lock the opponent in shield long enough to guarantee the side B grab, but it is not true that you can always spotdodge side B.

The fastest spotdodges (which about 1/3 of the characters have) have 1 frame of startup, 14 frames of invincibility and 7 recovery frames. Lucario has a 15 frame gap between the first active frame of his grab and the flame attack hitbox. Canceling into side B from any tilt or smash attack leaves about a 5 frame gap (actual number varies between moves) between the opponent’s ability to perform an action and the first active frame of Lucario’s side B. This means that no matter what frame a spotdodge was inputted, any character with such a spotdodge will always be hit with either the grab or the flame from side B.

Unfortunately for these certain characters, Lucario’s forward tilt into side B has a 2 frame gap between the last frame of shield stun and the frame that they get grabbed. Rolls have 3 frames of startup so it is not an option against this. Since characters with such a spotdodge cannot avoid the side B by spotdodging and since rolls are too slow, Lucario is guaranteed to hit with side B against many characters when forward tilt is blocked."

So although the side-B grab is not guaranteed to grab, it is guaranteed to either hit or grab on a significant portion of the cast off of f-tilt which is a very viable tilt to make contact with. If you actually test this with debug mode, then you will find this information to be correct.

My biggest gripe with current Zelda is that she isn't as fun to use as before.

You should specify to whom this applies to. I, along with many others I have spoken with, find this Zelda to be both more fun to play as, and play against.

 

[Rizner]

You should specify to whom this applies to. I, along with many others I have spoken with, find this Zelda both more fun to play as, and play against.

It applies to me. I don't intend to speak for any others.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I actually remember that conversation. I would like to test this, but how punishable on hit is the flame hit of side b? I imagine it isn't a combo move. It probably just resets to neutral at best. If side b was gaurenteed to get the grab off of f tilt, that would be rediculous.

 

[Downdraft]

@ S skellitorman My opponents don't find her more fun to play against, and I don't find her funner. From my observations, there appears to be no end to the dissatisfaction that Zelda's opponents feel when playing against her. Win or lose, so many people seem to complain about facing Zelda. From my perspective, and I stress that I'm only speaking for myself, I don't quite understand how a character with easily exploitable flaws, a plethora of weaknesses, poor matchups against many popular characters and styles, virtually no high-level success, etc. regularly garners so much more negative attention than other characters that are significantly more oppressive, dominant, and annoying (subjective) in the Project M metagame. I've got one question, and it's not directed to you personally.

What did Zelda do to you?

 

[The Baron]

@ S skellitorman My opponents don't find her more fun to play against, and I don't find her funner. From my observations, there appears to be no end to the dissatisfaction that Zelda's opponents feel when playing against her. Win or lose, so many people seem to complain about facing Zelda. From my perspective, and I stress that I'm only speaking for myself, I don't quite understand how a character with easily exploitable flaws, a plethora of weaknesses, poor matchups against many popular characters and styles, virtually no high-level success, etc. regularly garners so much more negative attention than other characters that are significantly more oppressive, dominant, and annoying (subjective) in the Project M metagame. I've got one question, and it's not directed to you personally.

What did Zelda do to you?

Uhhhhhh, It may just be the players I fight against personally but I know that alot of people along with me just find her campy and super defensive. It turns smash into a battle of attrition and it feels like an unpleasant game of chess instead of a fight. you move foward, din fire appears. What is next option? I choose to swat it. Cool, you may move two paces. Another dins fire appears. I get hit. You take 4 damage. Can zelda actually capatalize. No. Ok, back to start, etc. I can see why people like the chatracter because it's a patient, controlling character, but that is in part, what makes her unpleasant to fight against. Zelda players are rarely proactive and nothing about the match is really exciting. Similar to techies, it makes a usually 4 minute slugfest with quick reactions and fast decisions into a slow, monotonous 8 minute grind. But then again I play marth who is also considered not fun to fight so I don't think my opinion is worth all that much to anyone on the subject of fun.

edited for actual damage dealt.

 

[Player -0]

Zelda shouldn't really be able to throw out Din's for free and get 12 damage (it actually does 12 damage? That sounds too high). ESPECIALLY if you're Marth.

 

[4tlas]

It does 4.

 

[The Baron]

Zelda shouldn't really be able to throw out Din's for free and get 12 damage (it actually does 12 damage? That sounds too high). ESPECIALLY if you're Marth.

It was an exageration, or at least, the twelve part is.

 

[PoTheDragonSlayer]

Just wanted to re-post a suggestion someone recently made in the Arts and Alts Thread:

Since we're talking about new or returning moves for characters, how about Pit being able to shoot arrows downward in the air and this is probably going to get some flack lol but I honestly want Marth to get his old stabbing animation for Shield Breaker to separate himself from Roy more. Just so Marth, Roy and Ike have different neutral Bs to represent their different styles

I've always wanted Marth's old stabbing animation for Shield Breaker to separate him a little more from Roy. Thoughts?

 

[Binary Clone]

Just wanted to re-post a suggestion someone recently made in the Arts and Alts Thread:



I've always wanted Marth's old stabbing animation for Shield Breaker to separate him a little more from Roy. Thoughts?

It would basically just be a worse version of the same move. I don't really see why it's necessary or desirable. The two are already very distinct.

 

[The Baron]

Just wanted to re-post a suggestion someone recently made in the Arts and Alts Thread:



I've always wanted Marth's old stabbing animation for Shield Breaker to separate him a little more from Roy. Thoughts?

I prefer the slash but I also read a suggestion to make them kind of like kirbys new up b where you can change how it acts somewhat. If you hold sideways while doing it he goes into stab animation. That'd be nice though I don't know the specifics on how balanced or good it would be.

 

[Player -0]

It was an exageration, or at least, the twelve part is.

Your exaggeration is bad and hardly accurate.

 

[AceGamer]

Well the stab would have more horizontal range since Marth is lunging out with his sword, although I do understand that it doesn't cover him as well though sadly

 

[Downdraft]

Uhhhhhh, It may just be the players I fight against personally but I know that alot of people along with me just find her campy and super defensive. It turns smash into a battle of attrition and it feels like an unpleasant game of chess instead of a fight. you move foward, din fire appears. What is next option? I choose to swat it. Cool, you may move two paces. Another dins fire appears. I get hit. You take 4 damage. Can zelda actually capatalize. No. Ok, back to start, etc. I can see why people like the chatracter because it's a patient, controlling character, but that is in part, what makes her unpleasant to fight against. Zelda players are rarely proactive and nothing about the match is really exciting. Similar to techies, it makes a usually 4 minute slugfest with quick reactions and fast decisions into a slow, monotonous 8 minute grind. But then again I play marth who is also considered not fun to fight so I don't think my opinion is worth all that much to anyone on the subject of fun.

edited for actual damage dealt.

Your words resemble what I've read and heard myself, so people's general impression of Zelda is that her style doesn't belong in the game. If that's the case, then does she? In Melee and Brawl, she was bad. In Sm4sh, she's still got many unaddressed problems and received several ridiculous nerfs. Project M and Brawl- produced the most viable iterations of Zelda, but she's still limited. For those that think Zelda players perceive mentions of changes as personal attacks, why haven't y'all suggested how you would fix the character without destroying what Zelda loyalists have known since they first picked up the character. No one has suggested a way to make Zelda more enjoyable for both sides without abandoning her original design. rizner expressed that he likes and plays her less due to the 3.5 changes, and I know several other players that have dropped or reduced their support of the character.

Are you in favor of alienating a large portion of Zelda's players so she can play more like the rest of the cast? How many players should be sacrificed to make Zelda more fun to play against?

People may not like the way she plays, but I'm not aware of dedicated PM players quitting the game because they don't want to face her; however, I'm aware of several people taking hiatuses from PM or dropping the game because of the direction she's headed in. Being a Zelda main just seems like a lose/lose situation.

 

[The Baron]

Your exaggeration is bad and hardly accurate.

My apologies if you find it bad and innaccurate, it's just how I feel playing against the character personally, and I will be the first to admit my play is hardly optimized so it might just be me being bad and not handling it well. Is there anything you'd suggest about the match up?