Tier List Speculation

[Paradoxium]

1) While QaC is a major buff to his recovery, it still isn't too hard for a lot of characters to stick a hitbox while he is on his way to the stage because of its poor priority.

try naming all of the characters with a better recovery than pikachu, the only characters I can think of are Mew2, jiggs, maybe Zelda?

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I would say Mario, Peach, Lucario (with charges...), maybe DDD, Pit, Sonic. Maybe not better, but comparable no doubt.

 

[Rᴏb]

On a random note, anyone else feel like Mr. G&W could use his parachute in his Up B again? It really helped his aerial game in addition to his recovery. I don't understand why it was removed, as it really wasn't game breaking.

Noooo that's just not necessary at this point.

 

[Deleted member]

none of the well designed characters can compete with the current top tiers, thats why they're well designed. so yes we get that 75% of the cast sucks, drop it already

I almost never post in this thread anymore, so I don't know what your point in telling me to "drop it" is. I'll post whatever I want.

I also think it's pretty ridiculous for you guys to be calling for freaking Pikachu nerfs of all things. I still have yet to see QAC being used in a way that I would consider broken. Frankly, it's the one of only two things that really differenciates PM Pikachu from Melee Pikachu. That, to me, counts for something major since I find Melee Pikachu to be incredibly bland. I'm starting to think some of you want to homogenize everything and get rid of unique things just so you won't have to deal with "annoying" strategies. Ah, who am I kidding, I started thinking that a long time ago. Hopefully the PMDT is smart enough not to listen to you and chooses to tweak things rather than jumping the gun and nerfing them to hell or just ouright eliminating them.

 

[DMG]

What can do you out of QAC? Are you forced to do the jump/cannot cancel it into grab or Usmash? I don't remember the limitations of the maneuver, but I assume if you could cancel it reliably into grab that it would actually be sick onstage. As it stands though, it basically loses to *insert hitbox that last more than 2 frames* and shielding.

Someone should study Pika's edge frame data, and see what invincibility he retains if he tries to QAC back to the stage from the edge. Ofc the Smash community isn't like that, and doesn't have the drive to dive deep into the game while presenting the community with helpful information. We've gotta be SO FAR BEHIND on published frame data and hitboxes for characters. Plz someone godly fix this, and plz community explore ledge stuff.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Homogenizing things actually helps with balance. Consistent design is much less likely to have game breaking mechanics or characters since the rules of interaction are more similar across the cast. I like to think you have a scale of consistency ranging from infinitely homogenized to infinitely variable. The farther up the scale you are in variety, the more likely you are to have major balance issues somewhere due to mechanics that break the standards of character interaction. The farther down the scale you go to homogeny, the less people your game appeals to due to lack of available playstyles or matchup variety. You eventually have to compromise somehow if you have limited resources and time.

 

[Soft Serve]

What can do you out of QAC? Are you forced to do the jump/cannot cancel it into grab or Usmash? I don't remember the limitations of the maneuver, but I assume if you could cancel it reliably into grab that it would actually be sick onstage. As it stands though, it basically loses to *insert hitbox that last more than 2 frames* and shielding.

Someone should study Pika's edge frame data, and see what invincibility he retains if he tries to QAC back to the stage from the edge. Ofc the Smash community isn't like that, and doesn't have the drive to dive deep into the game while presenting the community with helpful information. We've gotta be SO FAR BEHIND on published frame data and hitboxes for characters. Plz someone godly fix this, and plz community explore ledge stuff.

It cancels into the Double jump, but you dont have to jump, you can just do an aerial/special or waveland. Thankfully you cant do grabs, that'd be crazy. If you can QAC>aerial and hit the aerials auto cancel window, then It'd be a pretty fast way to grab/up-smash, but from messing around with it I never got anything like that to work.
Right now it technically beats sheilding because pika can QAC>footstool infinite, but yeah thats a stretch to want to execute it perfectly in a match.

Pika might be able to maintain ledge invincibility, but you'd have to go to a platform and land right after you start the 2nd movement. Ledge invincibility is something like 29-30 frames if I'm reading the right thing, and If pika's up-b is the same frame-wise as Melee, The 2nd dash starts moving on the 27th frame. So unless you have perfect angles or PM up-b is much faster, you'd only get invincibility if you go to a platform, and I dont think you could get any moves out (you could maybe start one, idk) Theres no PM pika hitbox thread that I could find, so it could work completely differently than I'm thinking it does.

I know from melee that pika can platform cancel up-b on Dreamland/battle field from the ledge with good timing, I'm sure PM pika could do similar things

 

[DrinkingFood]

I don't understand why QAC spamming is even feasible. Like, jump, QAC into double jump, repeat ASAP without landing. When does pika get his double jump back?

 

[TreK]

That's what the QAC does. It puts you on the floor but then it goes like "nah bro I've changed me mind"

In other news. I just discussed Fox for a bit with a friend, and am extremely salty about this character so you shoukdn't listen to anything I have to say about him
But would it be possible to make it so a grounded shine always forces a tech chase on everybody ? To apply the diddy banana treatment to it, basically ?
Looks like you'd have to change the angle or increase the knockback but hey who knows ? Not me.

 

[Soft Serve]

That's what the QAC does. It puts you on the floor but then it goes like "nah bro I've changed me mind"

In other news. I just discussed Fox for a bit with a friend, and am extremely salty about this character so you shoukdn't listen to anything I have to say about him
But would it be possible to make it so a grounded shine always forces a tech chase on everybody ? To apply the diddy banana treatment to it, basically ?
Looks like you'd have to change the angle or increase the knockback but hey who knows ? Not me.

You don't want that, for reals. Like right now characters that dont get knocked down, but have so little traction they get away from him are fine
If fox is playing against someone who gets knock down he just thunder's combos, ie shine>wd forward>jab reset> anything he wants, on everyone
I guess strictly speaking its better than fox getting guaranteed followups on the cast, but it also makes it so the counterplay is being forced to tech a 1frame hitbox. It also destroys fox's conversion plan in most MU's

I'd go with Mango's suggestions personally, Pal up-smash, and somehow make shine do no dmg (while still keeping shield pressure intact and knockback/hitstun) so he can't do multiple waveshines across the stage to get just enough dmg for the upsmash to kill. Shines would be strictly a conversion/edgeguarding tool and it would trim down some of the quick damage fox can put out without making fox feel less rewarding as a character (Which is what just overall nerfs to upsmash/uair/nair/dair/bair would do)

 

[TreK]

You don't want that, for reals. Like right now characters that dont get knocked down, but have so little traction they get away from him are fine

What about heavies with high traction ? I mean I play DK ._.
Yeah that makes sense though.

 

[Spralwers]

Well that's what I'm saying. It's MU related. Falcon's neutral game which is basically dashdance grab and nair works really well against Lucas' and M2's kits (maybe Pit's too), and their combo weights are absolutely great for Falcon to get off. Lucas has it really bad, with regards to Falcon combos.

You see, Falcon doesn't care that Lucas has a godlike recovery. Because Lucas is a semi FF and a lightweight, upthrow -> knee can become a kill option as early as 70%. Being a lightweight causes Lucas to suffer really bad knockback, and also give Falcon ample time to read DI for throw follow ups. Being a semi FF sends him at a perfect trajectory for knee follow ups from uthrow and sometimes dthrow, and lessens the effectiveness of survival DI against the knee. A random Falcon kick (which Falcon can definitely land in neutral) becomes extremely scary for Lucas once he's at 100%. Falcon can actually edgeguard tethers fairly well by letting go of the ledge into DJ bair, similarish to Marth.

A pocket Falcon is really nice to have if your main happens to struggle a lot against Lucas, M2, and maybe Pit. But like you said, Falcon is an honest character. It takes lots of work and strong fundamentals to truly be good with him. So for now, only guys like JamieHR can whip out a pocket Falcon and win against a solid Lucas main like Neon. But at a mid level, where most people are, it's such a great counter pick.

As for Fox, yeah sometimes I prefer playing lighter characters like Roy vs him because getting knocked down (and being able to tech) is a much better alternative than getting waveshined into upsmash/dsmash/waveshine/grab. If you watch Sethlon's set with Mango at Whobo, Mango is barely able to make meaningful conversions off shine.

 

[jtm94]

Honestly Falcon is the last place I'd go for help against Lucas, M2, or Pit.

I'd just learn Mario or Diddy so I could handle the entire cast on one character, or wait... Learn Lucas, M2, or Pit.

Against Fox just chaingrab him then KO him. Most characters can do it. Some can do other stuff, but why when you can just CG.

 

[Foo]

Against Fox just chaingrab him then KO him. Most characters can do it. Some can do other stuff, but why when you can just CG.

If only...

 

[Boiko]

Thoughts on Zelda? Anyone else think the kicks need a nerf? I mean, a 4 frame move that kills <70% is kind of absurd, especially considering her high damage output. Also there are set ups into it off of up throw or a bad DI down throw.

 

[Foo]

Thoughts on Zelda? Anyone else think the kicks need a nerf? I mean, a 4 frame move that kills <70% is kind of absurd, especially considering her high damage output. Also there are set ups into it off of up throw or a bad DI down throw.

Sets up from bad DI forward throw too. Against zelda I have to DI away from her and change DI if I see her doing dthrow animation. Zelda is one of those awkward characters who has one or two ABSURDLY OVERPOWERED moves, but is nowhere near overpowered herself. I have a feeling most people will say "No, lighting kick doesn't needs nerfs because zelda doesn't need nerfs," but I think lighting kicks needs nerfs and zelda needs buffs. Make lighting kick slower and laggier (twice in a short hop, 5 times in a double jump... pls). Zelda's neutral also should not have invunerability frames. That is really really dumb.

HOWEVER, Zelda also needs buffs to her movespeed, her aerial mobility, and a slight decrease to her floatiness imo. I don't feel characters that slow have a place in smash, and giving them other tools to compensate for really bad mobility will almost always result in the same thing: Bad character that is super frustrating to play against because they have some utterly broken tools (e.g. Bowser). I'd wager that the Zelda mains out there have a better idea of how to buff her than I do, but mobility HAS to be on the list.

 

[Ripple]

Anyone who misDIs a Zelda throw deserves to get kicked.

 

[Deleted member]

Except, you know, ANY move beats it. There was a vid posted in the pika boards where pikachu was up being into the bottom of battlefield and smashville and moves with no disjoint are hitting him through the stage.

In my mind, qac is useful in recovery, running away/platform movement and baiting. Not really a viable approach since any active hitbox destroys it.

as we have learned with mewtwo, having an active hitbox out before the opponent uses teleport or qac is a very big problem in terms of design.

 

[Tagxy]

Pika isnt just bad because a few other characters are broken, even compared to the average cast member hes bad because his offstage presence one of his biggest strengths in smash not only doesnt fit in PM but isnt even good relative to other characters which is an essential aspect of this character existing in the first place. And yes I will completely judge 3.5 on pikachu's ability to fight offstage and his relative strength in that area.

try naming all of the characters with a better recovery than pikachu, the only characters I can think of are Mew2, jiggs, maybe Zelda?

Sometimes the best way to edge guard pikachu in Melee was to grab the ledge, force him onstage, and then waveland punish. You can't do that in Pm, because it has zero endlag due to QaC. Pikachu's recovery got a mad buff from that, also in melee you could only sweet spot the ledge going downward, in pm you can sweet spot from any direction with any part of quick attack.

And yea I agree, QaC was one of those things that slid under the Radar. I mean, you can break Sonic's down b with ANY move right? You can beat yoshi's egg roll with ANY move too right?

But it is probably gonna stay, bcuz brawl (Never thought I'd say that)

Oh dang were suprised pikachu has one of the best recoveries in the game? I say dont use bad design to advocate more bad design. The amount of lag QA had in melee was beyond dumb, and whether QAC exists or not pikachu can use QA to return onto the stage unless you do include something dumb like this. Trying to QA through the opponent to recover is also stupidly predictable. So no QAC does not effect his recovery.

Those moves are bad examples, QA is a movement option not an attack.

Stuff like sex kicks beat QAC, but QAC lets pikachu get back on the stage for free if he's close enough along with the fact that the move has little commitment, since he can do it but not approach with it.

Burst of movement with little to no risk, eww

Edit: IMO, QAC should be impossible during the 2nd part of up b, only first. I think the only reason it can't currently be fixed to that is because of technical limitations.

Youre bad, get better. No one complained about this move being remotely too good in Brawl once they understood how to beat it. Thats like saying dash dancing requires no commitment, like no kidding of course if I dont approach with QAC there's no risk. Actually QAC near someone who knows how to toss out a hitbox isnt just risky its impossible, and the only way to get around that is to allow some degree of mixup which is still risky and limited but at least gives pika some small chance to get in.

as we have learned with mewtwo, having an active hitbox out before the opponent uses teleport or qac is a very big problem in terms of design.

No, having to have an active hitbox out against an opponent who has his entire moveset available to him anywhere in the game after an untelegraphed teleport with ridiculous flexibility in range and angle is a big problem in terms of design. Otherwise six years of QAC existence demonstrate that when options are limited, telegraphed, and punishable there are 0 problems. If theres too many options out of QA then someone can remove wavedash or whatever nonsense that no one even uses anyways.

 

[MLGF]

Thoughts on Zelda? Anyone else think the kicks need a nerf? I mean, a 4 frame move that kills <70% is kind of absurd, especially considering her high damage output. Also there are set ups into it off of up throw or a bad DI down throw.

She's fine.
A proper bait wrecks Zelda.

 

[Boiko]

She's fine.
A proper bait wrecks Zelda.

I 100 percent disagree. It's not as if you're baiting a slow move and even so, good luck baiting a character that is so defense heavy. I know Din's isn't that great, and that most moves destroy it, but it certainly has it's uses. A good Zelda player won't get baited, as Zelda is primarily a keep out character. She sets up her walls, forces you to come in, then sets up a wall with kicks, nair, or Nayru's to keep you back out. I think her design is great for a defensive character, honestly. She has all the right tools, and all the right weaknesses. But I think it's silly that she can short hop double lightning kick, which kills at absurdly low percents. It's stronger than a lot of character's Fsmashes (including her own) and it comes out in 4 frames.

 

[Deleted member]

So no QAC does not effect his recovery.

lmao this thread is over

yeah lunchables, get better

A good Zelda player won't get baited, as Zelda is primarily a keep out character. She sets up her walls, forces you to come in, then sets up a wall with kicks, nair, or Nayru's to keep you back out.

 

[Tagxy]

lmao this thread is over

yeah lunchables, get better

Bro if I QA through you and land onto the stage/platform even without QAC you aint gonna do jack.

 

[shairn]

She's fine.
A proper bait wrecks Zelda.

Zelda doesn't approach, so how do you expect to bait her?
And how do you expect to punish a move that comes out faster than all of your own moves?

 

[Deleted member]

Bro if I QA through you and land onto the stage/platform even without QAC you aint gonna do jack.

bro if i played you i'd **** on you because your posts already show everyone that you dont know anything about the game

 

[mimgrim]

Bro if I QA through you and land onto the stage/platform even without QAC you aint gonna do jack. lrn2

bro if i played you i'd **** on you because your posts already show everyone that you dont know anything about the game

I'll probably get a warning for this. But worth.

 

[Tagxy]

Being an upstanding member of this smash community I'm not going to promote spam, but being honest I can't stop laughing that this dude got so mad he made an entire post to get at me. But no worries Umbreon I forgive you lets be friends .

More on topic, youll have to look at zelda's abilities in the context of 3.5 rather than how well she gets baited/beaten in 3.0

 

[Boiko]

More on topic, youll have to look at zelda's abilities in the context of 3.5 rather than how well she gets baited/beaten in 3.0

Considering the limited knowledge of changes in 3.5, all I'm seeing is that Zelda will be better, as no one spoke of any nerfs she's facing.

 

[Strong Badam]

Very few characters have confirmed nerfs. I think just tether characters have specific nerfs confirmed.

 

[Boiko]

Very few characters have confirmed nerfs. I think just tether characters have specific nerfs confirmed.

Exactly. And I think it's a fair assumption that notable top tiers such as M2, Lucas, Mario, etc. will probably have some mechanics toned down/altered. So in turn, nothing that affects Zelda, thus making her even better.

That's kind of why I don't care to talk about her "abilities in the context of 3.5" because what do us outside the PMDT really know?

 

[DrinkingFood]

Confirmed nerfs as opposed to... unannounced nerfs?
Plz say it's so SB we all know we just need to bring the overall power level down sooner or later

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Betcha Mewtwo will go into special fall after his up b

 

[MLGF]

If the Zelda doesn't do anything, be rational and kill her via spacing.
You act like Zelda players don't do anything when you force them into situations, as if she's somehow different from any other character in this regard.

 

[Boiko]

If the Zelda doesn't do anything, be rational and kill her via spacing.
You act like Zelda players don't do anything when you force them into situations, as if she's somehow different from any other character in this regard.

*siiiigh*

 

[MLGF]

What a great counter argument, my training partner mains Zelda and, after playing essentially any Zelda I can find, she's not that hard to beat if you play it smart.
I mean, Ness has it rough so MU bias ahoy, but I'm not going to try to argue with someone who just posts *siiigh*

 

[Boiko]

What a great counter argument, my training partner mains Zelda and, after playing essentially any Zelda I can find, she's not that hard to beat if you play it smart.
I mean, Ness has it rough so MU bias ahoy, but I'm not going to try to argue with someone who just posts *siiigh*

"My training partner" is a bad argument.

 

[mimgrim]

"My training partner" is a bad argument.

Way better then the "arguments" you are giving.

 

[MLGF]

Yes, clearly the fact I learn the matchup and understand how to fight the character deeply (and not just on a personal level) means my argument and opinion on Zelda is invalid.
Thank you, I see the error of my ways.

 

[Boiko]

I never said your opinion was invalid but saying "be rational and kill her via spacing" in the most vague explanation of how to beat a character and it literally applies to every single character in the game. Hence siiigh.

 

[foxygrandpa]

Zelda is pretty bad once you see through her spacing. She has a blindspot midrange, so any character that can properly distance her out or dash dance in midrange solidly beats her (link, fox). The kicks are pretty dumb though. Stay next to her and you get kicked and die and like 60 damage, stay too far away from her and she'll set up. If you know how to fight zelda, she should only be able to really setup when you're in hitstun and when you're offstage.

On a side note, her run looked slightly faster in the art video, but I havent played this game forever and probably wont until 3.5 so I could just be imagining.