Tier List Speculation

[Thane of Blue Flames]

>Say one thing about Pikachu

>All the Pikachu players come in like a Yellow Thunder Sh*tstorm to defend him

Jesus it's like you guys are Zelda mains

Not a Pikachu main bruv

Not enough sword or cape

I mean does he even have a headband??!??!??!??!???

 

[jtm94]

I would sooner accept Zelda's lightning kick be made into another move entirely than be made slower and laggier. The best option would be something slightly weaker than Melee kick so you can land it consistently, and it's new weaker state is helped via less garbage run speed. Also grounded SDI nerfs were brought up so SB forgot to add that to already listed nerfs. We can figure that Zelda's multihits will be less guaranteed. As far as Ness vs Zelda if Nayru's is dictating the MU you are doing something wrong. And pretty sure Ness fair converts into more fair against most all characters in the game, but yes current Zelda kick is stupid and outranges fair, probably doesn't even trade.

Pikachu's recovery is fine. I think Zelda's and Mewtwo's outclass it strongly in the current version because teleport. If it had Falco SideB meteor wrapped around him I would agree that the character is dumb, but it doesn't and he's fine.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Zelda could use mobility buffs, a way to force approaches and less extreme kill moves to promote a more consistent playstyle.

That about cover it?

 

[jtm94]

Zelda could use mobility buffs, a way to force approaches and less extreme kill moves to promote a more consistent playstyle.

That about cover it?

You did good.

The only issue here is the hundreds of people who won't like the way it has to be done, but it will be for the sake of Zelda and necessary.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

The most useful QaC is an aerial mobility tool in a defensive manner or to whiff punish the characters with better priority. I personally think QaC is fine. It just makes his recovery better in places where he almost never used to get gimped anyways...

 

[MLGF]

So I was discussing it with people today about Jigglypuff ideas and the two ideas that seemed great were:
1) Make it so that Down B does not put Jigs to sleep is she gets the hit.
2) Make her neutral be non charged and just launch her a fixed distance, change some other properties if needed. Just by god make it more useful.

They sounded like good ideas to me.

 

[Soft Serve]

Make pound jump cancelable, kappa

No one defends their character more than diddy players though.
Pika is fine, zelda is bad, etc etc. Just don't talk **** about wolf or 1FD will get all up in here

 

[Frost | Odds]

So, uh, Tire Lust Specks

I think Peach might be a bit better than she's given credit for, though her bad MUs are still a solid stack of BS. FC aerials from tourney winner, glide toss, tech chase booty bump seem to help quite a bit. Also, custom controls seem to make FC a lot more straightforward.

I still don't know how she's supposed to ever beat m2/ivy/otherpeoplewithreach, but eh

 

[trash?]

tip 2 newcomers to this thread: actually make your posts readable, 'cause multi-paragraph arguments is worst-case scenario, it's why half of us like 1FD's posts and the other half has him on ignore

also, zhime was pretty openly pissy about potential zelda changes six-ish months ago (I believe left the PMDT over it, which is totally reasonable and in no way an example of the kind of person you don't want leading balance changes), so expect some rage in this here thread soon once 3.5 comes out

 

[Scuba Steve]

I think Falcon fares a lot better in PM than most people give him credit for.

In Melee, he whomped a huge majority of the cast which boosted him up to a top 8 character. However, he had rough matchups among some of the top tiers who are the most commonly played in competitive play.

In PM, Falcon doesn't have as good of a matchup spread because of the power creep of the revamped characters, but his unfavorable matchups aren't played as commonly in PM as they are in Melee. You're way more likely to play a favorable matchup for Falcon in a PM tournament than you would as a Falcon player in Melee.

Anybody else feel similarly?

 

[Soft Serve]

On peach talk
I think right now she is crazy (once again footstool>float anything is amazing), but she gets swamped down by all the projectiles because she cant float over everything this time around. Consider that her bad MU's in melee were all to characters that either out-ranged her, out punished her, or were actually able to threaten the space that Peach wants to occupy, and then realize the fact that like every PM character does this better

I think she's strong and AGTs are huge buffs (in addition to other slight changes like ledge jumps giving her an actual means to get off the ledge) which cover some of her problems now, but if she struggles against Jiggs because jiggs can control air space better than Peach can, wth is she supposed to do vs Ivy/Pit/M2/link who controls her space better and can punish her for trying to be there

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ Scuba Steve
Yeah. Also, he was buffed quite a bit. The raptor boost/falcon kick changes alone are huuuge for anyone willing to change their playstyle based on PM stuff, his recovery is way better, and his speed allows him to push through a lot of the really BS matchups that invalidate a lot of slower cast members.

If he doesn't get any changes, Falcon will easily be S tier in 3.5.

 

[DMG]

Um no. 3.5 will bring recovery nerfs, but Falcon can already kill a lot of lamo's from throws or tech chases outright. Pit can't glide back with multi-jumps and arrows if he's gonna eat the Dic knee from a throw. Bigger problems Falcon faces are from onstage neutral tools that edge him out. If Recovery nerfs are 90% of this patch, without changes to say Lucas onstage or Wolf onstage, it doesn't matter. His viability more accurately hinges on how "good" characters are onstage, not offstage. I mean stuff like Mario fireball jank removal is good for him, but there's a hefty list of characters that can put up good fights vs him and I doubt many of them will change onstage drastically.

 

[1FD]

tip 2 newcomers to this thread: actually make your posts readable, 'cause multi-paragraph arguments is worst-case scenario, it's why half of us like 1FD's posts and the other half has him on ignore

lmao
fackmeitistru

Make pound jump cancelable, kappa

No one defends their character more than diddy players though.
Pika is fine, zelda is bad, etc etc. Just don't talk **** about wolf or 1FD will get all up in here

Wolf.
Wolf what?
Yes make Pound JC'able but ONLY on hit.
Also make Pound cancel into Pound on hit once to make a double-slap move.

Also I like that Shine = no damage thing. That's good along with the usmash tweak
Maybe just make sourspots on his usmash and a great sweetspot so his precision is cooler

You can cancel the up b by up b'ing into the ground, so yeah you can't just cancel it whenever but I meant that in neutral its extremely useful due to the fact that you can just hit the ground and then re-up b lol

This + how the first part of Upb was buffed to superaccelerator speeds
Like it's super fast
There's a HUGE difference between the first and second part of upb in terms of speed
In Melee you can nair > sh/fh uair on people's shields, or dtilt > sh uair backward or nair forward
Now you can upb after any of those things and do things like dtilt poke into upb instant uair to actually get something of the hit more than positioning or sh bair out of dtilt which you couldn't in melee etc.
Not a pika main, but I deal with the pika that helped axe and anther so same BS

YES FALCON PEACH BEING GOOD TALK
I love those chars so super bias but *still has put falcon and peach above marth and shiek on every list made to date
Seriously tho I'm super bias for them 2

Where do I put a list of things I have as a wishlist for changes?
1 is Mario meta-game changed from UMvC3 Zero on Point with Hidden Missiles spaceship-style play to more Dat mario thread style melee doc optimized ground game of fortress and solidity


Project: M Mario feels better to play than all other incarnations of a 'smooth' flowing intuitive type of way.
Melee Mario/Doc are more fun to both watch play and play as/against even in more challenging situations.

That's where balance (or lack of it) makes a difference, and it's the biggest difference.

 

[MLGF]

Every can get excited over the "safe" characters in 3.5 and how good they'll be, but I can't wait to see how the "toxic" characters will change.
Maybe I won't hate myself over playing Meta Knight, or I can go back to my Melee roots and play Doc in PM and feel like a low (relatively) tier hero like I used to.

 

[Boiko]

I would sooner accept Zelda's lightning kick be made into another move entirely than be made slower and laggier. The best option would be something slightly weaker than Melee kick so you can land it consistently, and it's new weaker state is helped via less garbage run speed. Also grounded SDI nerfs were brought up so SB forgot to add that to already listed nerfs. We can figure that Zelda's multihits will be less guaranteed. As far as Ness vs Zelda if Nayru's is dictating the MU you are doing something wrong. And pretty sure Ness fair converts into more fair against most all characters in the game, but yes current Zelda kick is stupid and outranges fair, probably doesn't even trade.

Pikachu's recovery is fine. I think Zelda's and Mewtwo's outclass it strongly in the current version because teleport. If it had Falco SideB meteor wrapped around him I would agree that the character is dumb, but it doesn't and he's fine.

Personally, I don't care about the MU that much. I just play Meta Knight, lol.
But, for a fun fact, as Ness, I faired a Zelda player and ate a kick. I took 22% he took 3%, lol.

I like your suggestions though.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Every can get excited over the "safe" characters in 3.5 and how good they'll be, but I can't wait to see how the "toxic" characters will change.
Maybe I won't hate myself over playing Meta Knight, or I can go back to my Melee roots and play Doc in PM and feel like a low (relatively) tier hero like I used to.

My ex-roommate can't wait for the patch, so he can win tournaments with mewtwo and feel that it was actually an achievement.

 

[shairn]

AGT isn't a buff to Peach, it's a nerf. Try gimping someone who knows how to AGT with turnips. Does Peach even have a good AGT?

 

[Frost | Odds]

Huh, didn't think of that. Yes, her AGT is off the chain, though it's not like she really needed it.

 

[Foo]

AGT isn't a buff to Peach, it's a nerf. Try gimping someone who knows how to AGT with turnips. Does Peach even have a good AGT?

So, you mean airdodging to grab it and then throwing it immediately to agt? I've never tried it, so I could be wrong, but that seems REALLY easy to mess up. I'd anyone but the best of the best would kill themselves trying that more often than rarely.

 

[mimgrim]

*blink*

The could attempt to grab it with the grab button first then do an AGT, which is less risky. But that is only relevant if the character in question has a good AGT.

And yeah. Peach's AGT is pretty good.

 

[shairn]

So, you mean airdodging to grab it and then throwing it immediately to agt? I've never tried it, so I could be wrong, but that seems REALLY easy to mess up. I'd anyone but the best of the best would kill themselves trying that more often than rarely.

I've done it before, it's hilarious.

*blink*

The could attempt to grab it with the grab button first then do an AGT, which is less risky. But that is only relevant if the character in question has a good AGT.

And yeah. Peach's AGT is pretty good.

Regardless of whether or not you have a good AGT you still gain vertical or horizontal distance and avoid getting hit by a turnip.

 

[Player -0]

Peach's AGT is pretty big.

Unless Peach is quickly throwing the turnip down then typically characters fall faster than it. If you throw it from the stage then you can bait -> Nair. Consistently IGTing is semi difficult and makes it so you can't be doing something like Side B. Like for Ike you can cover Side B then turnip/punish Up-B. Also if you mess up an IGT you're dead. You can't harass from the stage if that's what you're saying to cover a DJ read but I think it's still good for covering options.

 

[Phan7om]

Expect some rage in this here thread soon once 3.5 comes out

I, for one, am just as excited for this, as I am 3.5's change list

 

[Ripple]

I hope the reason 3.5 is taking longer than expected is because they're going to release a changelog the same day

 

[Soft Serve]

@ shairn is right, I forgot how laughibly easy it is to agt items throw at you off stage. Any diddy/link/tink player would have the timing down, it's not even hard.

 

[Boiko]

I think the list on page one is 100 percent accurate.

 

[RelaxAlax]

I wonder who's gonna be broken, or, the next high tier character everyone complains about. I know its negative to think about, but there are so many variables the team can overlook, so it's bound to occur, no? Hopefully though, it's not to the same calibur as the jank we have now. But I feel everyones expecting all to be hunky dory when 3.5 drops and all will be balanced, but I doubt this will be the place. Someones at the top for a reason and someones at the bottom for a reason. I just hope these reasons are few and more character diversity can be explored and stand up against the best of them.

I'm kind of used to Ganon the way he is. Although I want a few buffs for him, I don't want him changed drastically, and I don't think even with these changes he'll be more than mid tier. Which I like. I wanna be a low tier hero

Also, for those odd balls down at the bottom like IC's, Oli and Jiggs, I hope they aren't over buffed and then more Mewtwos.

Anyone else worried bout Olimar? I mean that in the sense that he could be a darkhorse in 3.5. He has the potential too given a few things, unless ofcourse they completely overhaul him.

 

[1FD]

smash for you can't even do anything without catching items
like you even look at the screen and you suddenly have an item in your hand if something was thrown and hasn't disappeared yet
buttons

Oli rocks he's a funny char
not on the hate list yet

 

[Rᴏb]

I hope the reason 3.5 is taking longer than expected is because they're going to release a changelog the same day

I hope it's because they decided to finish the new characters in time.

 

[1FD]

New as in the Bowser and Zelda re-makes?
or
#47

 

[foxygrandpa]

New as in the Bowser and Zelda re-makes?
or
#47

I thought it was generally well known that by #47 they meant release date in 2047.

 

[Deleted member]

also, zhime was pretty openly pissy about potential zelda changes six-ish months ago (I believe left the PMDT over it, which is totally reasonable and in no way an example of the kind of person you don't want leading balance changes), so expect some rage in this here thread soon once 3.5 comes out

Considering the amount of work he put into designing a character that few people really gave a **** about, and considering the fact that he was a solid and respectable player, I think he had every right to be pissed off. But then again, since you're obviously the expert and authority on designing PM characters, I guess we should all let you freely pass judgement on things you know so little about.

Narcissism at its finest.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Considering the amount of work he put into designing a character that few people really gave a **** about, and considering the fact that he was a solid and respectable player, I think he had every right to be pissed off. But then again, since you're obviously the expert and authority on designing PM characters, I guess we should all let you freely pass judgement on things you know so little about.

Narcissism at its finest.

Considering the fact that we planned for you zelda players to lash out, we are well prepared.

 

[Rᴏb]

holy **** what am I reading

 

[DMG]

Zelda just hit the fan this thread

I vote to let Umbreon and I balance her. Same with Link. We'll do a good job

 

[MLGF]

Remember how mature Ike mains were when 2.5 came around?
I mean, some of us were being whiny and stuff, but I recall none of us getting this stupid.
Especially before 3.5 even came out.

 

[Player -0]

2.5 skips to 3.5? So if we go back in time we can go into the future?

 

[Deleted member]

Considering the fact that we planned for you zelda players to lash out, we are well prepared.

I have no interest in debating about Zelda anymore. I've said what I wanted to say in the past and have no interest in doing so again. Whatever happens to her is going to happen regardless of what I think, so I'm done.

However, I'm not going to stand by and let you guys bad mouth the person who designed her. And if your intent is to be spiteful and get a rise out of Zelda players (of which few actually post here so you're not going to get much of a response anyway,) you're just proving yourself to be an immature child with nothing of value to say.

But hey, if it makes you feel good about yourself to gang up on a group of people who have been relatively silent for a long time now, go right ahead.

 

[MLGF]

Sigh...
In 2.0 Ike was dumb, in 2.5 Ike was stupidly nerfed and people whining.
Now, that's happening again before the next update even comes out.

Get the **** over it people.